Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[snipeheem]

What's crazy is that Pantani and Ullrich actually look human compared to Pogacar or even Jonas Vingegaard..

This is crazy but u are right.. i wonder if any of them will be ever caught.

 

[ColonelKidneyBeans]

Pogacar with the same bike as Pantani is 5 minutes slower on Ventoux.

Yeah, absolutely not, the Bianchi of those times were just as light (even lighter as a matter of fact) as the current bikes, they were stiff as hell, tubular from that time vs recent tires might explain a ten watts difference or thereabout, aero is pretty marginal at the speed they climb.
The recent bikes/tires are a far better rounded package as a whole, but as far as pure climbing goes the margin is really thin.

 

[Rob5091]

It's amazing that people are still giving it the old "aero socks make them faster" spiel.

 

[Ripper]

It's amazing that people are still giving it the old "aero socks make them faster" spiel.

Well Rob5091, if that is indeed your name, I can tell you that I have some aero socks and I think they have made me approximately 2 seconds (2!!!!) faster on a TT course I regularly ride that is roughly 30 minutes. And I look extra pro while doing it (so long as you ignore the middle aged dad gut). Not quite as much as a gain as the wheels or helmet, but dammit, I am faster in my non-evidence-based analysis.

I wonder how much faster I would get for those silly sunglasses that have the aero nose covering?

 

[Mayomaniac]

Yeah, absolutely not, the Bianchi of those times were just as light (even lighter as a matter of fact) as the current bikes, they were stiff as hell, tubular from that time vs recent tires might explain a ten watts difference or thereabout, aero is pretty marginal at the speed they climb.
The recent bikes/tires are a far better rounded package as a whole, but as far as pure climbing goes the margin is really thin.

Iban Mayo with modern tires that save 10w should be at least as fast as Pogacar, with that, drafting and the massive crowds + motobikes sheltering them from the wind his performance is still more impressive

 

[BubbaChuck]

pantani on hard drugs and ullrich star of german rave scene from early 2000s on epo doing same watts as pogacar,who lives like phelps was a scout boy.shocking.

 

[daking123]

People keep neglecting Team Sky’s doping . With all that’s come out, it’s pretty obvious they were blood doping and injecting salbutamol.
Froome at his absolute best would be fighting for a spot in the top 20 today. His estimated watts per kilo on Ventoux in 2015 was 5.78 W/kg.
Now compare that to Pogacar and Vingegaard, who are putting out around 6.5 W/kg that’s a 13% increase over a rider who was already doped.
How is that even remotely possible without a motor? You never see performance jumps like that in any other sport especially not at the elite level.

 

[Abedfo]

I reckon we'll be visiting this thread after tomorrow's stage lads.

The only pleasure I derive from pro cycling these days is this thread haha. How sad / jaded am I!

 

[Abedfo]

And MVDP actually has the normal physiological supercompensation, periods of decreased fitness et cetera. Unlike Pogacar. I honestly believe MVDP is clean.

I also believe MVDP is "clean" or whatever that translates to in relation to the current state of certain members of the peloton. If Pogacar didn't crash in PR he was definitely going to win.

At least with the cyclocross dominance it makes sense. You have someone who is technically incredible, racing against riders who let's face it would be average pro conti road riders. As lars van der haar said mvdp, wva, pidcock come in fresh as a daisy, with a huge endurance base. They are racing with specific calenders against guys who are fatigued from racing twice a week from October to Feb.

 

[cnort]

I also think that the UC I has convinced themselves that if the record times don't continue to fall, that the public will lose interest, sponsors will leave, their budgets will fall and no one will be able to afford new Audi's every other year.

I'm not sure the UCI cares too much about climbing records. I doubt a member of the public watches the Tour live to see if a record is broken - sure the fastest ascent is often not by the first rider onto the climb, and where does the climb even start? I think the UCI wants a spectacle, with numerous crazy attacks rather than the gradual grinding down with steady high tempo.

In fairness, a lot of major climbs are used quite infrequently. The Tour has gone up Alpe d'Huez maybe 32 times in 70 years. I suspect that teams and riders do more reconnaissance now than in the past, so they might be better prepared for gearing choices and pacing strategy. Even without doping, I'd expect times to come down anyway - albeit with diminishing returns.

 

[Venge 82]

In fairness, a lot of major climbs are used quite infrequently. The Tour has gone up Alpe d'Huez maybe 32 times in 70 years. I suspect that teams and riders do more reconnaissance now than in the past, so they might be better prepared for gearing choices and pacing strategy. Even without doping, I'd expect times to come down anyway - albeit with diminishing returns.

I’d actually argue that climbing Alpe d’Huez 32 times in 70 years is fairly frequent – that’s roughly every other Tour.

That said, I disagree with the idea that times should be coming down. Sure, recon, gearing, nutrition, and pacing have all improved — but we’re comparing to performances that were often enhanced by doping, with estimated gains of up to 15%. That completely skews the historical benchmark.

That’s exactly why I find it hard to fully believe that today’s peloton is entirely clean. When records from the EPO era are being broken — not occasionally, but consistently, day after day — it naturally raises questions.

 

[cnort]

That said, I disagree with the idea that times should be coming down. Sure, recon, gearing, nutrition, and pacing have all improved ...

I'm thinking that in a dope-free peloton, you would expect times to come down by a few seconds. Not every time, because stage and race circumstances dictate too - but the record can act as a target for some riders.

That’s exactly why I find it hard to fully believe that today’s peloton is entirely clean. When records from the EPO era are being broken — not occasionally, but consistently, day after day — it naturally raises questions.

I find it impossible to believe they are fully clean. My point was just that I don't see why the ceiling of performance should be reached within 20 or 30 times of racing up a mountain. Finisterre in the Giro is a good example - it's been used a handful of times in very different race situations. It could be another 30 years before we can even say what constitutes a brilliant ascent.

 

[ColonelKidneyBeans]

Iban Mayo with modern tires that save 10w should be at least as fast as Pogacar, with that, drafting and the massive crowds + motobikes sheltering them from the wind his performance is still more impressive

I'm not sure, before tuesday all the top 15 of the ventoux climb were from the 99/04 dauphine MTT, bar Pantani 94, i think that says something about the MTT format being ideal for a fast Ventoux climb. But Mayo 2004 was one of the finest climbing performance ever, that's for sure.

pantani on hard drugs and ullrich star of german rave scene from early 2000s on epo doing same watts as pogacar,who lives like phelps was a scout boy.shocking.

You realize that Pantani and Ullrich problems came later in their career, that the Ullrich thing was mainly off season, and that he (Pogacar) still beat a whole lot of other athletes who were living like monks and were chock full of PED, right?

 

[ashhutch1997]

Speaking of the 1998 Les Deux Alpes stage, I've found this on YouTube, with the late David Duffield.

View: https://youtu.be/C_lIHM2zyE8?feature=shared

 

[snipeheem]

Speaking of the 1998 Les Deux Alpes stage, I've found this on YouTube, with the late David Duffield.

View: https://youtu.be/C_lIHM2zyE8?feature=shared

26:24 Marco attack

 

[ashhutch1997]

What's interesting is that apparently the other teams agreed not to attack until after the intermediate sprint, as they don't want Pogacar winning the green jersey.
Maybe the other teams are sick of Pogacar being greedy over the last two years.

 

[Saint Unix]

The thing I can't make sense of is that we're seeing enormous increases in power output in the last five years, but we're not seeing corresponing paradigm shifts in other endurance sports. Looking at the world records and fastest times in the 5000m, 10,000m and marathon, as well as the longer events in rowing, track cycling and speed skating, none of them have been lowered by unpresedented amounts in the last few years. The speeds in XC skiing don't seem to be on a different planet to five years previously.

Surely the athletes at the cutting edge in these sports have access to the same technological advances as cyclists, in terms of training, nutrition, sports science and PEDs, both in the legal/grey area and the illegal stuff? When EPO hit the scene it affected all endurance sports. There was a before and after across the board because the game had obviously changed. We're seemingly at another one of those watershed points in cycling now. Times are faster than they were at the uninhibited height of EPO use where a 60% hematocrit was the norm. The physical laws of the sport don't seem to apply any more, where featherweight riders can crank out ungodly watts and beating the tanks on the flats and classics and sprint specialists like WvA and Pollitt are doing monster pulls in the mountains. For someone who's followed cycling for the better part of three decades it doesn't make any sense. But similar mind-melting exploits aren't seen elsewhere. Why?

It's not because Pogacar is "the best ever" or because his team has more marginal gains than the next one. He's an outlier and UAE are stinking rich, but the entire peloton has shifted up several gears compared to just a few years ago. The entire sport has been affected by this. Is it because cycling has more money in it than any other sport, so other sports can't afford the new drug on the block yet? Possibly, and I guess time will tell whether we will eventually see other sports use the same groundbreaking methods successfully.

Unless, of course, the crucial advantage that's responsible for the enormous performance increases in cycling is literally only possible in that particular sport... Yes, I'm talking motors. I used to be so firmly on the other side of the fence on this and I didn't think the sport could sink that low, but I'm getting doubtful. There's too much going on these last few years that doesn't pass the eye test unless you add a motor into the equation. Then you have the fact that UAE literally own a bike company now and that Pogacar is making some weird bike choices recently, which is admittedly thin evidence at best, but has to be considered as part of the bigger picture. If we also zoom out and stop looking at cycling in a vacuum, the increase in performance in cycling compared to other sports is hard to explain by any other means too. The longer it takes before a superhuman freak comes along and smashes records in other endurance sports, the more I think we're dealing with something beyond just your average oxygen vector/pharmacological cheating.

 

[Venge 82]

I have no hard evidence (no one does), but as someone who’s followed cycling for decades I’m increasingly convinced that some performances today simply don’t add up.
When riders start breaking records on climbs like Mont Ventoux or Plateau de Beille – climbs with limited aero benefit and long sustained power – we’re no longer in the realm of marginal gains. These are pure tests of physiology.

Yes, bikes are lighter and slightly stiffer. Yes, gear ratios are better optimized. But these are minor advantages on a 50+ minute climb at 6.5 w/kg or more. And while training, fueling, and nutrition have evolved – they haven’t transformed so drastically in the past 2–3 years to explain the kinds of performance leaps we’re seeing from some riders.

Take Tadej Pogačar as an example. In 2021, he was already the best stage racer in the world, sustaining ~6.5 W/kg on key climbs. Yet by 2024, he produced nearly 7.0 W/kg for close to 40 minutes on Plateau de Beille—an unprecedented leap of 7–8% at the absolute elite level. Such a gain in just 2–3 years is far beyond what can be reasonably explained by training, nutrition, or equipment alone.

What could possibly explain this? 3 possibilities (the one more likely than the other):

1. Genetic manipulation (e.g. PGC‑1α)
Upregulating PGC‑1α can increase both mitochondrial density and fast-twitch endurance – meaning better long efforts, better explosiveness, and faster recovery.
If such interventions are in play, they’re undetectable with current protocols.
And they would perfectly match the profile of a rider who dominates sprints, climbs, time trials, and recovers like a machine. PGC does look like an abbreviation of Pogacar, but that is purely coincidental (existed before).

2. AICAR and metabolic modulators
AICAR enhances fat metabolism, endurance, and mitochondrial output.
We now know it was possibly used by Team Sky as early as 2012, based on recent reports.
That changes the reference point: we’re not comparing with the doping era of the early 2000s, but with a system that may have continued well into the mid-2010s.
So when people say "but bikes, nutrition, and training improved...", the real comparison should be 2013–2015, not 2000.

3. Mechanical assistance (inductive / electromagnetic systems)
Miniaturized induction or electromagnetic wheel systems exist, are real, and are technically feasible in today’s pro bikes.
The UCI’s detection tools remain extremely limited:
- No internal dismantling of wheels
- No firmware or data analysis
- Thermal cameras and tablets can be evaded with smart materials and concealment

The fact that riders are “frequently tested” is comforting only on paper. If the tools are blind to the real threats... Frequency ≠ effectiveness.

As a cycling fan I expect believable performances, backed by logic, physiology, and technological transparency. When an athlete appears to defy multiple biological limits – day after day, Tour after Tour – without a coherent explanation, suspicion is not cynicism. It’s critical thinking.

If we truly want to protect clean riders (I applaud Oscar Onley for publishing his Watts) and keep the sport credible, we need to be honest about what can be done today, what can’t be detected, and what seems increasingly hard to explain.

If that makes me skeptical, so be it.

4. Oxygen release enhancers (e.g. ITTP): the silent boost
A recent post by Antoine Vayer (based on work by pharmacist and doping expert Marc Kluszczynski) outlines another powerful — and largely invisible — performance enhancer: allosteric effectors of hemoglobin, such as ITTP.

Unlike EPO or blood transfusions, these substances don't increase red blood cell count or hemoglobin concentration. Instead, they reduce hemoglobin’s oxygen-binding affinity, allowing more oxygen to be released to the muscles during effort — up to 35% more than normal physiological levels.

Key features:
- Short half-life (1–3 hours) → ideal for timed microdosing
- No impact on hematological values → undetectable in the biological passport
- No current detection method → ITTP is not listed in WADA's banned substances index
- Minimal health risks → originally researched for therapeutic use (heart failure, cancer), with only mild, transient side effects reported

One of the few reported adverse effects? Upper respiratory infections — such as colds (coincidence???)

If true, this would be nearly undetectable, yet perfectly tuned for performance in elite cycling.

 

[jono]

The thing I can't make sense of is that we're seeing enormous increases in power output in the last five years, but we're not seeing corresponing paradigm shifts in other endurance sports. Looking at the world records and fastest times in the 5000m, 10,000m and marathon, as well as the longer events in rowing, track cycling and speed skating, none of them have been lowered by unpresedented amounts in the last few years. The speeds in XC skiing don't seem to be on a different planet to five years previously.

I would argue in sports like marathon and long course triathlon we are seeing major advances in speed/records over the last decade or so.

 

[ashhutch1997]

Robbie McEwen on Lenny Martinez taking very stricky bottles - "the worst thing is not talking about it", given how blatant it was.
While him and all the media constantly glaze Pogacar's blatantly enhanced performances all year.

 

[ColonelKidneyBeans]

4. Oxygen release enhancers (e.g. ITTP): the silent boost
A recent post by Antoine Vayer (based on work by pharmacist and doping expert Marc Kluszczynski) outlines another powerful — and largely invisible — performance enhancer: allosteric effectors of hemoglobin, such as ITTP.

Unlike EPO or blood transfusions, these substances don't increase red blood cell count or hemoglobin concentration. Instead, they reduce hemoglobin’s oxygen-binding affinity, allowing more oxygen to be released to the muscles during effort — up to 35% more than normal physiological levels.

Key features:
- Short half-life (1–3 hours) → ideal for timed microdosing
- No impact on hematological values → undetectable in the biological passport
- No current detection method → ITTP is not listed in WADA's banned substances index
- Minimal health risks → originally researched for therapeutic use (heart failure, cancer), with only mild, transient side effects reported

One of the few reported adverse effects? Upper respiratory infections — such as colds (coincidence???)

If true, this would be nearly undetectable, yet perfectly tuned for performance in elite cycling.

Those things are not particularly new, efaproxiral (RSR-13) was already in the news at the beginning of the 00's, the few studies haven't found any PE benefits afaik, it's on the prohibited list and it's not hard to detect. Always take what Vayer says with a big grain of salt, he has a marked tendency to throw everything at the wall hoping that something will stick, among other things, he's not anti doping biggest ally due to this and to his abrasive (and that's being kind) personality imho. Too easy to point fingers at him like he's the crazy drunk uncle.

 

[Venge 82]

Those things are not particularly new, efaproxiral (RSR-13) was already in the news at the beginning of the 00's, the few studies haven't found any PE benefits afaik, it's on the prohibited list and it's not hard to detect. Always take what Vayer says with a big grain of salt, he has a marked tendency to throw everything at the wall hoping that something will stick, among other things, he's not anti doping biggest ally due to this and to his abrasive (and that's being kind) personality imho. Too easy to point fingers at him like he's the crazy drunk uncle.

I think it’s fair to be cautious with anything Antoine Vayer posts — his tone is often provocative, and he has a tendency to overstate things. That said, not everything he shares is nonsense, and in this particular case, it’s worth separating the messenger from the message.

Regarding ITTP, there seems to be some confusion:

- ITTP is not the same as efaproxiral (RSR-13).
While both are allosteric effectors of hemoglobin, ITTP is a distinct molecule with stronger oxygen-release capacity. Efaproxiral was explored in the early 2000s, but ITTP only started appearing in the literature around 2010–2012, and was developed as a more potent and stable alternative.

- Studies have shown performance-enhancing effects.
Peer-reviewed publications (e.g., PLOS ONE, 2012; Respiratory Physiology & Neurobiology, 2011) report significant improvements in tissue oxygenation and endurance capacity in animal models. No human trials exist yet, but the physiological basis is solid.

- ITTP is not currently on the WADA Prohibited List by name.
It may fall under broad categories like “blood manipulation,” but it’s not explicitly mentioned, and to date, it has not triggered any athlete positives — except for one case in French horse racing (2019), where a custom test had to be developed.

- Detection is not straightforward.
ITTP has a short half-life (1–3 hours), leaves no lasting markers in the blood, and doesn’t raise hemoglobin or hematocrit. That makes it invisible to the biological passport and difficult to detect without a targeted test — which, to our knowledge, doesn’t yet exist in anti-doping labs for humans.

 

[repoman]

It's amazing that people are still giving it the old "aero socks make them faster" spiel.

DId you see that recent test that found the vast majority of expensive aerosocks were slower in aero than a worn out pair of non aero socks from 15 years ago the tester pulled out of the back of his sock drawer to use as a baseline?

 

[Venge 82]

DId you see that recent test that found the vast majority of expensive aerosocks were slower in aero than a worn out pair of non aero socks from 15 years ago the tester pulled out of the back of his sock drawer to use as a baseline?

Damn ***! More than 100 € for 3 pairs in the trash bin...

 

[ColonelKidneyBeans]

I think it’s fair to be cautious with anything Antoine Vayer posts — his tone is often provocative, and he has a tendency to overstate things. That said, not everything he shares is nonsense, and in this particular case, it’s worth separating the messenger from the message.

Regarding ITTP, there seems to be some confusion:

- ITTP is not the same as efaproxiral (RSR-13).
While both are allosteric effectors of hemoglobin, ITTP is a distinct molecule with stronger oxygen-release capacity. Efaproxiral was explored in the early 2000s, but ITTP only started appearing in the literature around 2010–2012, and was developed as a more potent and stable alternative.

- Studies have shown performance-enhancing effects.
Peer-reviewed publications (e.g., PLOS ONE, 2012; Respiratory Physiology & Neurobiology, 2011) report significant improvements in tissue oxygenation and endurance capacity in animal models. No human trials exist yet, but the physiological basis is solid.

- ITTP is not currently on the WADA Prohibited List by name.
It may fall under broad categories like “blood manipulation,” but it’s not explicitly mentioned, and to date, it has not triggered any athlete positives — except for one case in French horse racing (2019), where a custom test had to be developed.

- Detection is not straightforward.
ITTP has a short half-life (1–3 hours), leaves no lasting markers in the blood, and doesn’t raise hemoglobin or hematocrit. That makes it invisible to the biological passport and difficult to detect without a targeted test — which, to our knowledge, doesn’t yet exist in anti-doping labs for humans.

I had completely forgotten about ittp, thank you.