Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[AlpRaid]

Plus proabbly just more naturally talented. Look at all the GOATS in every other sport. People are just naturally better than others

merckx, hinault, lemond always looked like they were trying/working hard, even when they dominated (and, yes I know the first two did cortisone -- different ballgame).

pog the last two years reminds me simply of armstrong at his most doped. looks like he is on a training ride, never even bothered or straining, ever.

 

[Nomad]

Hyper responder. Maybe he has a natural low haematocrit? I heard Armstrong was in the 30s naturally

A naturally low Hct wouldn't matter under the current ABP system. For the hematological module, the system is based on the rider's baseline Hct level where individualized reference ranges are established. Abnormal fluctuations outside the reference ranges is what flags an athlete's ABP.

Bjarne Riis rode for Gewiss-Ballan in 1994-95. The team had a systematic EPO doping program under the auspices of team doctor Michele Ferrari. The blood values & Hct variations of the team's top riders were later published. Riis reportedly had a baseline Hct of 41.1 in Jan/1995 & was doped up to 56.3 for the 95 Tour (15.2 increase or 37% over baseline). Riis wore Yellow for a few stages & went on to finish on the podium behind Zulle (confirmed doper) & Indurain (suspected doper).

If the ABP was applied to his numbers, it would have been flagged for an atypical profile due to an exceptionally high Hct concentration = massive erythrocytosis. An OFF-score in the 140s would result from the 37% increase over baseline. OFF-scores over 140 are deemed 99.99 specificity with less than 1 in 10,000 chance of being undoped. Normal OFF-scores typically range between 85-95. This would have been a cut & dry hematological anomalies case & Riis would have been banned.

Gewiss–Ballan - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[thetdog666]

merckx, hinault, lemond always looked like they were trying/working hard, even when they dominated (and, yes I know the first two did cortisone -- different ballgame).

pog the last two years reminds me simply of armstrong at his most doped. looks like he is on a training ride, never even bothered or straining, ever.

I believe they all do cortisone to keep them going for the weeks. Even now.

Why does everyone think lemond was squeaky clean?

Yeah I here you. Motor I reckon along with a top notch dopig program..

 

[AlpRaid]

Why does everyone think lemond was squeaky clean?

Because he was.

However, there really is no reason to go into that long history here.

The real and only GOAT no doubt about it.

 

[zlev11]

yeah, Lemonds numbers match his known VO2 max and correlate well with what the human limits of cycling performance should be. then he got obliterated by the original EPO dopers.

also, Lance put out a large bounty trying to find anyone with dirt on him and nobody ever came forward.

 

[ColonelKidneyBeans]

Pogacars massive jump in performance was mainly because of correcting the mistakes of his previous coach (San Millan) he had Pogacar doing Z2- training 80% of training days but with his new coach Sola he is doing more high intensity training, more intervalls, he fixed Pogacars problem with heat and restructured the altitude camps so to not overload Pogacar.

Please, when Pogacar was dominating it in 2020-21 the narrative was "San Millan is a genius! Z2! Mitochondria! Cancer research!!", but now he was actually hindering him? He's still working for UAE, if he was so bad that would not be the case.
As for Pogacar problem with heat, it's quite overblown, what's the sample? Ventoux 2021? He finished ST with Vingegaard. Granon 2022? 25°C average with a max of 30°C in the valley, so cooler during the ascents. He was killing it in higher temperatures during the rest of that tour (Hautacam was 27°C average, Mende too). In 2023 he was super strong on the puy de dome with a 30°C average, Grand colombier with 28°C and cracked at Courchevel under 25°C average.

 

[zlev11]

the new coaching and training is the same old smokescreen we've seen before from Lance and Sky. the fact is that Pogacar got smoked by Visma and Vingegaard two straight years and decided to up his dosages.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

the new coaching and training is the same old smokescreen we've seen before from Lance and Sky. the fact is that Pogacar got smoked by Visma and Vingegaard two straight years and decided to up his dosages.

It's also interesting that not long after Visma got beaten in 2020 Tour a Danish phenomenon arrived at a very convenient time.

 

[BubbaChuck]

Visma ran out of juice,lmao.

 

[zlev11]

It's also interesting that not long after Visma got beaten in 2020 Tour a Danish phenomenon arrived at a very convenient time.

i think the Visma factory was already well up and running by then and Vingegaard was just a beneficiary of it. no doubt they took it to another level for 2022, though.

 

[BubbaChuck]

so basically you have armstrong visma program obsesed with tour and pog will do what.race clean.

 

[thetdog666]

Because he was.

However, there really is no reason to go into that long history here.

The real and only GOAT no doubt about it

I dont think you could even get close to winning without taking something. This is just my opinion though. I would put money on him failing a lie detector test if he was to do one haha.

Yeah fair enough. The real GOAT is pogacar anyway hehehe

 

[AlpRaid]

I dont think you could even get close to winning without taking something. This is just my opinion though. I would put money on him failing a lie detector test if he was to do one haha.

Yeah fair enough. The real GOAT is pogacar anyway hehehe

And I’m pretty sure he would pass that lie detector test with flying colors.

Again, I don’t wanna get into a debate about this in this thread. However, I recommend that you do some research, and I say that in the most respectful way.

 

[BubbaChuck]

peak armstrong doping is bedtime story for kids.both ullrich and pantani were more jizzed in their tour wins.marco couldnot live with himself after what he did and thye did some fuked up things in mid 90s in italy.i wouldnot be surprised,if mafia killed somebody due to doping allegations.in germany thye were literally running mengele type of experiments.first epo era was worse than second,when americans come into game.now they blamed everything on lance simply,cause its perfect for cycling.instead of admting whole era was insane,its 1 guy.otherwise thye had to delete 20 years of cycling,lol.

 

[ontheroad]

peak armstrong doping is bedtime story for kids.both ullrich and pantani were more jizzed in their tour wins.marco couldnot live with himself after what he did and thye did some fuked up things in mid 90s in italy.i wouldnot be surprised,if mafia killed somebody due to doping allegations.in germany thye were literally running mengele type of experiments.first epo era was worse than second,when americans come into game.now they blamed everything on lance simply,cause its perfect for cycling.instead of admting whole era was insane,its 1 guy.otherwise thye had to delete 20 years of cycling,lol.

The sad reality of doping is that it is nowhere near equitable. We will never know the most talented bike racer only the best responder with the greatest resources combined with their own natural talent.

It is anybodys guess as to a riders true level of natural ability but now that the war on doping appears to have been well and truly lost, very often the reaction to doped performances is based on a riders perceived level of natural ability.

For example I think Remco was a huge natural talent and although he will be getting some chemical assistance I find it easier to accept him as a credible champion. Other riders less so. The riders with the greatest level of natural talent are the biggest losers in all of this.

Lance might have been talented as a one day racer but he hadn't a hope in hell of winning the TDF as a clean rider. The results never lie. He simply had access to the best programme and was a very good responder.

 

[BubbaChuck]

Its impossible to assess true level in this kind of environment,but this is true for any of them.pantani,ullrich,indurain.If we go by build,than lance looks more gc rider than any of them.Pantani looks like he couldnot keep with me on flat.Indurain and ullrich just no.Big mig looks like eddie back in the day,who looked hilarius climbing.

 

[Mayomaniac]

Plus proabbly just more naturally talented. Look at all the GOATS in every other sport. People are just naturally better than others

Please, the guy actually had a meh sprint and wasn't explosive before turning pro, Einer Rubio was outsprinting him on MTFs and he lost every single sprint from a reduced group/uphill sprint in the u23 races.
I can buy that he's a naturally gifted gc rider, but cobbled classics Pogacar is nothing but a add for pharmaceutical companies...

 

[BubbaChuck]

Its beyond me how peopel can watch ullrich,indurain or eddie and compare them to pog.lmao,on climbs he looks like jordan in comp to them.where is the surprise coming from,lol.

 

[Stablo]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1953238920738816109

View: https://x.com/ORION_coaching/status/1953238920738816109?s=19


This is the bs they are trying to sell us about the position. Like this is somehow a revolunationary driving position to create never seen before power while seated. Well when it clearly isn't the position or some core training(lol) producing the super power, then what could it be?

The goat conversation regarding pog's, gianetti"s and CO's achievements is more absurd, than saying Lance is the all time best stage racer. The tiktok-generation is somehow largely buying it and the journalists mostly stay silent, cause you can't bite the hand that feeds you.

 

[bah]

Pogacars massive jump in performance was mainly because of correcting the mistakes of his previous coach (San Millan) he had Pogacar doing Z2- training 80% of training days but with his new coach Sola he is doing more high intensity training, more intervalls, he fixed Pogacars problem with heat and restructured the altitude camps so to not overload Pogacar.

This really takes the biscuit. So his new trainer introduced some intervals (hitherto unknown in the world of cycling!) and all of a sudden he takes a giant leap. Ridiculous.

 

[BubbaChuck]

you put pog on 90s stuff and he climbs everest on bike,lmao.

 

[Rackham]

So Michael Storer says Pog deliberately threw stage wins in the last week.

'Tadej Pogacar wilde Tourrit naar Superbagnères niet winnen door boegeroep Franse fans'

Tadej Pogacar zou zich in de veertiende rit van de Tour de France, die gewonnen werd door Thymen Arensman, ingehouden hebben met oog op het Franse publiek. Althans, dat zijn de woorden van Michael Storer. De Australiër vertelde dat in de podcast Domestique Hotseat. Storer sprong meerdere keren...

www.wielerflits.nl

Due to boos and his team not wanting the French to turn against him. Yep, definitely a healthy sport right here /s

 

[pelotonIQ]

This really takes the biscuit. So his new trainer introduced some intervals (hitherto unknown in the world of cycling!) and all of a sudden he takes a giant leap. Ridiculous.

A new trainer corrected the mistakes of the previous one thus improvements occured, not a difficult concept to understand.

 

[dr.eve]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1953238920738816109

View: https://x.com/ORION_coaching/status/1953238920738816109?s=19


This is the bs they are trying to sell us about the position. Like this is somehow a revolunationary driving position to create never seen before power while seated. Well when it clearly isn't the position or some core training(lol) producing the super power, then what could it be?

The goat conversation regarding pog's, gianetti"s and CO's achievements is more absurd, than saying Lance is the all time best stage racer. The tiktok-generation is somehow largely buying it and the journalists mostly stay silent, cause you can't bite the hand that feeds you.

The 'TikTok' generation is not buying it. They simply do not care or are numb to it. They only care about shouting GOAT. As I have said before, it's apparantly an amazing time since every sport currently seems to have a GOAT. We should all be amazed right? 🤣

Gimme MVDP any day over a Pogacar. I like to see great athletes doing great things but also enduring hardhips and overcoming them. And best would be if you throw some competition in the mix. Pogacar is just a one man domination show and I really do not care about that. Im so happy he is not participating in the Vuelta and was equally happy not seeing him in the Giro. Because that way we have a higher chance for some proper competition that entertains us.

 

[bah]

A new trainer corrected the mistakes of the previous one thus improvements occured, not a difficult concept to understand.

It's not a difficult concept to understand at all; it just strains credulity when considering the leap forward he has made and the level he was already on.