Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[Rechtschreibfehler]

Using visual impressions of a performance as proof of wrongdoing gets us nowhere. It would be better to move the discussion forward in a more serious way.

This I agree with. The "eye-test" is a pretty bad test when it comes to doping. The worst of being "they don't suffer properly" eye test. It's not even true most of the time (that you can't see suffering), but it's also that people like Kohl used to look like they die when riding their bike, while also being super fueled.

Pogicentrism is also not helping when it comes to finding out what's going on. Of course this is his thread, I am not saying don't discuss Pogi here, but with all the moaning about his dominance, the focus seems to be more on frustration than discovery of truth atm.

 

[SorelyBoy]

Do you even know what KERS stands for? It’s the kinetic energy recovered during braking. Do you see him slamming on the brakes every 50 meters to recover energy? Not to mention that you don’t win a bike race by braking all the time. This isn’t F1, where you’re constantly slamming on the brakes in the corners.



Dude, the second Kwaremont was much faster than the third, and he wasn't dropped. There's nothing unusual about a tired rider being dropped.



I'm sure MvdP was the fastest on Kwaremont. On the second Kwaremont, he started well behind Pog and finished right behind him at the top of the climb.

A rider doing 650 watts is the opposite of a tired rider. Look again. MVDP was absolutely hammering it up that climb. At one stage he even looked as if he was catching Pogacar. And then Pogacar put the hammer down again and he was gone, like he was on a motor bike. The question is, was he? Because to me it looked very odd.

 

[Abedfo]

A little side note

https://twitter.com/x/status/2034756104995963033

View: https://x.com/i/status/2034756104995963033


This is a good compilation of egregious motor use in pro cycling. It's clearly happened before. I dont understand why it is so beyond the realm of comprehension that it happens now.

 

[markene2]

I dont get why the motor thing is laughable, its like some of you simply refuse to believe it no matter what, and no im not insinuating that tadej is the only one, i would venture the entire top 10 is using it considering they have been in use for 17 years by now. The only difference is that UAE is the new postal or sky. Ergo immunity to cheat freely compared to everyone else with better tech and doping.

Get real for a second. How can every climbing time in general and average speed of the peloton be so utterly destroyed year after year, the most doped times in existence smashed like it was nothing. Well by mechanical assistance and doping.

I mean in PR you just have to go back 6-7 years and the winners time would be OTL if he races last years race.

Froomes top level would not even get him into the top 10 at the tour anymore. And he with sky was once of the pioneers of widespread adoption with motors, "shady" backwheels (look into the unbranded backwheels during the mountain stages in Wiggins and froome tours.)

Thing has really evolved and it will get even faster can you believe that.

UCI should have nipped it in the bud when cancellara and breschel was using it back in the day. Now its to late and would destroy the sport forever. So cat stays in the bag no matter what

The previous Antidoping chief in France is certain that motors are used in the peloton, so is lemond. But i guess they are just old and bitter.

 

[Extinction]

What is it even supposed to look like if every rider is completely clean? Using visual impressions of a performance as proof of wrongdoing gets us nowhere. It would be better to move the discussion forward in a more serious way.

Well, that question became mute a long time ago and, rather than doing something constructive about it, the sport, indeed all of sport, keeps selling out to the highest bidder. I suppose having Gianetti and Maxtin running the operation with UAE petrodollars floating the program only makes things more apparent for anybody that's paying attention.

 

[TheKidsCallMeBoss]

A rider doing 650 watts is the opposite of a tired rider. Look again. MVDP was absolutely hammering it up that climb. At one stage he even looked as if he was catching Pogacar. And then Pogacar put the hammer down again and he was gone, like he was on a motor bike. The question is, was he? Because to me it looked very odd.

They were clearly both tired, as they were slower on their third attempt up Kwaremont than they had been before.

Btw, MvdP barely lost any time on the climbs. At the top of Kwaremont, he was only 6 seconds behind. He lost the most time on the downhill and the flat sections. He just went a little too deep...

 

[SorelyBoy]

Question. If the technology was available and it was possible to circumvent or compromise the testing process, do you think Gianetti and Matxin would have moral objections to utilising mechanical devices in order to win cycling races?

 

[Rechtschreibfehler]

I dont get why the motor thing is laughable, its like some of you simply refuse to believe it no matter what, and no im not insinuating that tadej is the only one, i would venture the entire top 10 is using it considering they have been in use for 17 years by now. The only difference is that UAE is the new postal or sky. Ergo immunity to cheat freely compared to everyone else with better tech and doping.

Get real for a second. How can every climbing time in general and average speed of the peloton be so utterly destroyed year after year, the most doped times in existence smashed like it was nothing. Well by mechanical assistance and doping.

I mean in PR you just have to go back 6-7 years and the winners time would be OTL if he races last years race.

Froomes top level would not even get him into the top 10 at the tour anymore. And he with sky was once of the pioneers of widespread adoption with motors, "shady" backwheels (look into the unbranded backwheels during the mountain stages in Wiggins and froome tours.)

Thing has really evolved and it will get even faster can you believe that.

UCI should have nipped it in the bud when cancellara and breschel was using it back in the day. Now its to late and would destroy the sport forever. So cat stays in the bag no matter what

The previous Antidoping chief in France is certain that motors are used in the peloton, so is lemond. But i guess they are just old and bitter.

For me, it's not that I refuse to believe that there could be motor doping, I just refuse to believe what is presented here as evidence and fact about motor doping, are evidence and facts almost all of the time.

Your post as well presents accusations as facts and then proceeds to make an argument based on these accusations truth being taken for granted. This is just not how truth seeking arguments can work out.

Basically it usually boils down to: oh this looked strange, the UCI needs to be hiding Pogis (or everybodies) motor.

What is true though is that the speeds and watts are going up like crazy, and this needs explanation and the explanations given for it by the teams propaganda are not convincing. But from that it does not follow that whatever else suspicion one has is true.

What we discuss here in the clinic is done in epistemicaly super murky water, so the danger is always to speculate into the wrong direction, and I am not criticizing putting theories into play. That includes motors. But the arguments for that need to be well constructed and the evidence must be something else than, to say it bluntly, that it fits my personal motor-doping-fan-fiction pretty well.

 

[TrekCyclist]

A guy can have more W or more W/kg or both, as compared to other elite athlets. Fine.
But it seems unlikely that a guy almost never cracks, despite doing most of the work for 1,5 hours without much help. And then still rides away from the 2nd and 3rd best rider who are in good form. And not only once or twice.