Question Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

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It's about time we address Pogacars remarkable rise since he joined UAE in 2019.

His first season as a junior wasn't anything special, but we have to remember that he was born later in year (September) which is a disadvantage at that age.
In his second season he definitely proved his talent by winning the Giro della Lunigiana.
However, in the entire season he only won two stages and never put any distance on his competitors.
His time trial abilities were less impressive. A 25th and 68th spot.

His first season as a U23 rider wasn't too great either.
He won a few youth jerseys, but didn't record a single stage win.

His second season was definitely better, but still hit and miss.
He won the Tour de l'Avenir, but didn't record a stage win.
He also finished 7th at the WC road race.
Promising, but not exceptional.

Then he moved to UAE. Its CEO is Mauro Gianetti, possibly the dirtiest rider and sports director in history.
Suddenly he started to win stage races (Algarve, California, and individual mountain stages in the Vuelta against the likes of Valverde and Roglic.
He also became a much better time trialist beating Mohoric and Tratnik in the Slovenian championship.

Give me a break.
 
Reactions: vanderbob
Forum was just more active during the sky years. Probably one of the reasons why the froome/skyneos threads were more active.

What is the r-word?
There are also hundreds of pages of posts on salbutamol, asthma, cash recovery and UK government inquests on the Froome thread. He's just had more opportunities for comments where Pogacar has only some loose personal connections. If Pogacar misses a few OOCs and blames his dog etc then things will heat up.
 
Reactions: Hugh Januss
As they say " the hits keeps on getting better" during LA's years it was "angry jealous europeans"/bitter people..sky years it was anti british now it seems we have moved on to anti europeans. FWIW sky have alot of defenders and doubters. Pog's defenders level are below sky defenders.
 
Reactions: Pantani_lives
There are A LOT of differences between Froome/Sky/Ineos and Pogacar/UAE.

Pogacar was a prominent U23 rider with tons of results including a win in Avenir. On the other hand, Sky was scrambling to find something to justify Froome's sudden rise, including random anecdotes from that commonwealth games TT, and Anatomic Jock Race (name?). Another main component is the lack of absurd train riding from UAE. Finally, Pogacar has far fewer defenders here based on my observation than the legions of Sky/Ineos defenders.

There are probably more differences, but these are the biggest ones that I can mention from top of my head.
 
Reactions: Koronin and Breh
There are A LOT of differences between Froome/Sky/Ineos and Pogacar/UAE.

Pogacar was a prominent U23 rider with tons of results including a win in Avenir. On the other hand, Sky was scrambling to find something to justify Froome's sudden rise, including random anecdotes from that commonwealth games TT, and Anatomic Jock Race (name?). Another main component is the lack of absurd train riding from UAE. Finally, Pogacar has far fewer defenders here based on my observation than the legions of Sky/Ineos defenders.

There are probably more differences, but these are the biggest ones that I can mention from top of my head.
Prominent yes, the top of the line... not really. His most noticeable win is indeed the Tour de l’Avenir where he didn't win any stage though.. He has 2 other GC wins, but wasn't dominating at all. His jump to the pro and the performance improvement that went with it are absolutely ridiculous.
I do agree with the Sky statement though.

Tadej Pogacar 2018 Results (u23)
GP Laguna Porec – 5th
Trofej Porec – 4th
Istrian Spring Trophy – Stage 2 – 2nd
Istrian Spring Trophy – Final GC – 3rd
Gran Premio Palio del Recioto – 2nd
Ronde van Vlaanderen Belofte – 15th
Tour of Croatia – Stage 5 – 5th
Tour of Crotia – Final GC – 13th
Grand Prix Priessnitz spa – Stage 2 – 5th
Grand Prix Priessnitz spa – Stage 3 – 1st
Grand Prix Priessnitz spa – Final GC – 1st

National Championships Slovenia ITT – 2nd
Tour of Slovenia – Stage 4 – 4th
Tour of Slovenia – Final GC – 4th
Tour of Slovenia – Youth Classification – 1st
National Championships Slovenia Road Race – 6th
Tour de l’Avenir – Stage 7 – 3rd
Tour de l’Avenir – Stage 8 – 5th
Tour de l’Avenir – Stage 9 – 3rd
Tour de l’Avenir – Final GC – 1st
Giro della Regione Friuli Venezia Giulia – Stage 2 – 2nd
Giro della Regione Friuli Venezia Giulia – Final GC – 1st
World Championship U23 Road Race – 7th
Japan Cup Cycle Road Race – 11th
 
Prominent yes, the top of the line... not really. His most noticeable win is indeed the Tour de l’Avenir where he didn't win any stage though.. He has 2 other GC wins, but wasn't dominating at all. His jump to the pro and the performance improvement that went with it are absolutely ridiculous.
I do agree with the Sky statement though.
His jump in ability after moving to a team with massive dopers at the helm is extremely hard to ignore. We are not talking about people who dabbled, we are talking f*** hardcore. Sh!t like that just doesn't disappear, just ask Ricco or di Luca
 
Reactions: Koronin
Prominent yes, the top of the line... not really. His most noticeable win is indeed the Tour de l’Avenir where he didn't win any stage though.. He has 2 other GC wins, but wasn't dominating at all. His jump to the pro and the performance improvement that went with it are absolutely ridiculous.
I do agree with the Sky statement though.
He became better after he signed for UAE. Check his results. It's even more noticeable in Ayuso's case. Really good before he signed with UAE. Nearly unbeatable after he signed.
Compare his results at Coppi e Bartali to his Giro results this year.
 
He became better after he signed for UAE. Check his results. It's even more noticeable in Ayuso's case. Really good before he signed with UAE. Nearly unbeatable after he signed.
Compare his results at Coppi e Bartali to his Giro results this year.
Ayuso already signed with UAE more than a year before the Giro, and he didn't get many chances to prove his talent outaide of Spain last year because of the pandemic. He also wasn't that bad at Coppi e Bartali, but he was clearly building up to the Giro, where he didn't face any established pro riders like he did in CeB.
 
Reactions: GuntherL1
Prominent yes, the top of the line... not really. His most noticeable win is indeed the Tour de l’Avenir where he didn't win any stage though.. He has 2 other GC wins, but wasn't dominating at all. His jump to the pro and the performance improvement that went with it are absolutely ridiculous.
I do agree with the Sky statement though.
He was 19 then, not just "under 23", more like "first year out of juniors".
 
He was 19 then, not just "under 23", more like "first year out of juniors".
He was in U23 the year before as well. (His age doesn't really matter since the year after it he broke the peleton... and the difference between a good U23 (not the best) to dominant in the pro is huge.)


Tadej Pogacar 2017 Results (u23)
Istrian Spring Trophy – Stage 2 – 3rd
Istrian Spring Trophy – Final GC – 4th
Carpathian Couriers Race U23 – Final GC – 5th
National Championship Slovenia ITT U23 – 3rd
National Championship Slovenia ITT – 5th
Tour of Slovenia – Stage 3 – 5th
Tour of Slovenia – Final GC – 5th
Tour of Slovenia – Youth Classification – 1st
Tour of Hungary – Stage 4 – 2nd
Tour of Hungary – Final GC – 3rd
Gran Premio Capodarco – 9th
Croatia-Slovenia – 9th
International Raiffeissen GP Judendorf – 2nd
Piccolo Giro di Lombardia – 7th

Tadej Pogacar 2016 Results (u19/junior)
La Piccola SanRemo – 7th
Course de la Paix Juniors – Stage 2b – 1st
Tour du Pays de Vaud – Stage 2a – 4th
Tour de Pays de Vaud – Final GC – 6th
National Championships Slovenia ITT (U19) – 1st
Montichiari – Roncone – 3rd
Trofeo Emilio Paganessi – 7th
Giro della Lunigiana – Stage 1 – 2nd
Giro della Lunigiana – Stage 2 – 3rd
Giro della Lunigiana – Stage 3 – 1st
Giro della Lunigiana – Final GC – 1st

European Championships Road Race – 3rd
 
Reactions: GuntherL1
Ayuso already signed with UAE more than a year before the Giro, and he didn't get many chances to prove his talent outaide of Spain last year because of the pandemic. He also wasn't that bad at Coppi e Bartali, but he was clearly building up to the Giro, where he didn't face any established pro riders like he did in CeB.
Fair enough. I made a mistake here.
Thanks for correcting.
 
Reactions: Samu Cuenca
I think we saw the boy become a man this TdF after some tricky questions and a bit of booing. Week 1, he was smoking the field by minutes and not looking fatigued. Week 2, he couldn't really shake off the riders (including a domestique) that he was putting to the sword the previous week, but still not looking fatigued. Week 3 he couldn't really shake off the riders he was slaughtering in week 1 and added in slumping to the ground and looking tired.

I've no axe to grind and find his decent performance as a youth compelling, but the above combination is like an extreme version of what Froome would do and is almost impossible for ne to make sense of from a physiological/sporting standpoint. And the day he looked tired he rode the last kms in the mist, which undermines the theory about not liking heat.
 
Its 2005 and Great Britain cycling was behind the likes of Brazil or Czech republic in the UCI rankings. Fast forward 10 years and they got 3 Tours with 2 different riders and a british team dominating the World Tour. But yeah people were suspicious cause racism. Against Brits. LOL
British isn't a race lol! The point was the quantity of clinic page discussion correlates to British nationality of the rider & team. Does Bernal in the team have a suspicion? He wins like Froome & Wiggins, yet will never see much posted about him. What are we implying then? Ineos dopes British riders to win for their sponsor, but not non-British? That's just nuts! They signed Bernal with Froome & Thomas at the height of their powers and he has leapfrogged them, but because he's not a track rider and won races as a junior he doesn't dope? Pinot, Contador, Armstrong, Valverde, Pantani all won prolifically at young ages, it doesn't mean anything in terms of performance as a senior and doping.
All I'm saying, is if discussion here in the clinic actually related to 'doping' the bias and quantity of posts would correlate to teams and riders proved to be doping and involved in doping-related stories such as Aderlass or the recent raid on Bahrain. Can you imagine if Sky had been raided and Froome did an omerta zip lips across the line. The clinic here would have gone into joyous meltdown as it does for anything Froome or Sky.
 
May 29, 2021
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British isn't a race lol! The point was the quantity of clinic page discussion correlates to British nationality of the rider & team. Does Bernal in the team have a suspicion? He wins like Froome & Wiggins, yet will never see much posted about him. What are we implying then? Ineos dopes British riders to win for their sponsor, but not non-British? That's just nuts! They signed Bernal with Froome & Thomas at the height of their powers and he has leapfrogged them, but because he's not a track rider and won races as a junior he doesn't dope? Pinot, Contador, Armstrong, Valverde, Pantani all won prolifically at young ages, it doesn't mean anything in terms of performance as a senior and doping.
All I'm saying, is if discussion here in the clinic actually related to 'doping' the bias and quantity of posts would correlate to teams and riders proved to be doping and involved in doping-related stories such as Aderlass or the recent raid on Bahrain. Can you imagine if Sky had been raided and Froome did an omerta zip lips across the line. The clinic here would have gone into joyous meltdown as it does for anything Froome or Sky.
It is not that Bernal does not dope (more probably than not he does), but let's compare him to Froome:

- Bernal: He was born and has practiced cycling (road and MB) all his life at 2500m~3000m of altitude in a country that is obsessed with the sport, winning good races since he was 19-20, won the Tour against a very diminished field, failed next year. Won the Giro with the best team against Caruso and Yates. He is strong in high mountains and has a great handle of the bike, pretty much what you'd expect from him. He has a mediocre/okayish TT and has shown weakness many many times.

- Froome. An absolutely nobody until 25 , then he suddenly becomes the world's strongest cyclist by a gigantic distance with a total-dominance style not seen since Armstrong.

I mean.
 
It irritates me that the Italian media refuse to mention Gianetti's and Matxim's past, while everyone else mentions it.
Probably because the team used to be Italian under Saronni and there still is a strong connection to Italy. Compare that to all the doubts and speculations about Roglic that they have published over the years, clearly double standarts.
Bahrain also gets defended a lot because of the many Italian riders and staff members, guys like Beppe Conti having harsh words only for the French police after those raids was almost comical.
 
I'm amazed anyone with knowledge of the sport thinks Pogacar's racing the last three weeks was not suspicious. Too many red flags.
That a rider would be so dominant is suspicious, yes. But there's context to it; he and Roglic were head and shoulders favourites before the race, anyone who might have been a genuine opponent either didn't start, or crashed out of contention. Imagine the 2010 Tour if one of Andy/Contador had crashed out, or just look at 2014 Nibali riding with no Froome/Contador, or Delgado in 88 with Hinault retired, Lemond out of action and Roche injured.

With Armstrong, even with him running supposedly the most sophisticated, omerta doping operation in the sport's history, there was still plumes of smoke emanating, there was a constant stream of hearsay from within the USPS/Disco/Astana camp. As has been said on here, so many dopers these days are caught, not by the testing, but by police, by investigations, by reporting.

If there is something going on at UAE (and for every sign that it is, eg Pogi's form, there's a sign that it isn't eg Hirschi) then sooner or later info about it will start leaking to the public.

Also, don't forget, this is the team that 2 years ago provided their riders with an experimental sports drink that led to them all gaining 2-3kg during the Tour. I'm sure they can do some things well, but running a doping program, that is clearly way above what other teams with more resources can run, and keeping it quiet, is probably very, very hard.
 
That a rider would be so dominant is suspicious, yes. But there's context to it; he and Roglic were head and shoulders favourites before the race, anyone who might have been a genuine opponent either didn't start, or crashed out of contention. Imagine the 2010 Tour if one of Andy/Contador had crashed out, or just look at 2014 Nibali riding with no Froome/Contador, or Delgado in 88 with Hinault retired, Lemond out of action and Roche injured.
Just for the record: Nibali, Contador, the shclecks... are not clean pages.

With Armstrong, even with him running supposedly the most sophisticated, omerta doping operation in the sport's history, there was still plumes of smoke emanating, there was a constant stream of hearsay from within the USPS/Disco/Astana camp. As has been said on here, so many dopers these days are caught, not by the testing, but by police, by investigations, by reporting.
first we need to consider that most of the people caught doping are the low level riders. Those who use dope to barely reach the bar of a subpar domestique for the second 50km.
Hearsay for Armstrong/Telecom/Liberty/ and others didn't come at the start, they came gradually.
It is true that the biggest impact for 'catching' Armstrong was him getting the record of Tour wins. If he stopped at 5 i don't think the french would have kept pushing and pushing like they did. I think most people agree that testing doesn't catch the dopers, because besides a few specific ones, they missed a few very obvious ones..
The police/investigations/reporting are only done if people see the need for it. Again if Armstrong didn't win a 6th tour things would be differently for him.
Remember the Puerto affair? where some famous soccer players/tennis players were supposedly involved as well? think only the cyclist were beaten in that. So again it requires the people who want to disclose it. (barely exist for other sports) and i think it is becoming less and less in cycling as well. I think the people in the sport want to protect the sport from falling of a cliff.

Also, don't forget, this is the team that 2 years ago provided their riders with an experimental sports drink that led to them all gaining 2-3kg during the Tour. I'm sure they can do some things well, but running a doping program, that is clearly way above what other teams with more resources can run, and keeping it quiet, is probably very, very hard.
I'm sorry i haven't heard of this story, but gaining weight in a 3 week effort is BS i think. A body can only process that many calories. The biggest struggle in a tour is for your body to replenish the nutrition. Heck why in the old days you needed to be a bit more bulky so you had some meat to carve from yourself. Being able to gain 2-3kg in a tour smells more like some form of shenanigans than anything else. (Sounds like an overdone recuperation potion made for Obelix & Asterix)

If there is something going on at UAE (and for every sign that it is, eg Pogi's form, there's a sign that it isn't eg Hirschi) then sooner or later info about it will start leaking to the public.
To be fair, even Us Postal had guys not performing better, or widely varying over the years. Telecom the same, and they were also on program. (just like many other teams).
Forms can have many causes. Over training, injury, excessive winter, bored, mentally unfit, .. and many other can cause a rider to perform less. doesn't necessarily have to do with doping
 
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