Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[the delgados]

Why? Hear me out (for TLDR read the las paragraph). That is the thing with this doping issue in cycling.

This is my position which I think it is shared totally or partially for many of the posters at THE CLINIC (I reserve my opinion for the whole forum).

- Most (95%) , if not all, of the cyclists in WT teams are in some kind of medical doping program. If you have studied game theory even at elementary level you will realize that this is the inevitable result of having an initial minority who is not being punished. If 5% of the cyclists dope and thanks to that win races, contracts, sponsorships,starting places and dont get punished, I would be insane not to do it too, and if I dont do it, 10 other people will do it and replace me, so bye bye my professional career. Things can get a little quite after a big scandal, but the tide rises again progressively and we are now in a full moon night.

- If everybody is doping why only a few top cyclists always win? Different starting "clean slates", different response to the programs, different quality of the programs, different tolerance to take risks by the team/athlete.

-If everybody is doping what is the big deal then? Well the first and obvious point is that all this "help" is pretty dangerous to the cyclists, especially if an "arms-race" takes place. But there are many other reasons too, the more the peloton dopes, the more any classic strategy become useless, if you cannot drop a rider no matter what you do, what is the point? Without doping even the most exceptional athlete cannot cover every attack, can have a bad day, may need to pick a balance between strength and climbing capacity and so on. With good doping all this is gone, and you get sprinters climbing like goats. But even more insidiously and finally touching your point, if medical doping is allowed , why cannot the athletes blur the lines between mechanical doping and good equipment technology? Smaller motors and batteries make that very possible if not now in the close future, and it can be done without any punishment it will be done. Maybe the natural evolution of cycling will be motocross.

In my opinion, this sums everything up perfectly.
Enjoy the spectacle.

 

[Koronin]

Why? Hear me out (for TLDR read the las paragraph). That is the thing with this doping issue in cycling.

This is my position which I think it is shared totally or partially for many of the posters at THE CLINIC (I reserve my opinion for the whole forum).

- Most (95%) , if not all, of the cyclists in WT teams are in some kind of medical doping program. If you have studied game theory even at elementary level you will realize that this is the inevitable result of having an initial minority who is not being punished. If 5% of the cyclists dope and thanks to that win races, contracts, sponsorships,starting places and dont get punished, I would be insane not to do it too, and if I dont do it, 10 other people will do it and replace me, so bye bye my professional career. Things can get a little quite after a big scandal, but the tide rises again progressively and we are now in a full moon night.

- If everybody is doping why only a few top cyclists always win? Different starting "clean slates", different response to the programs, different quality of the programs, different tolerance to take risks by the team/athlete.

-If everybody is doping what is the big deal then? Well the first and obvious point is that all this "help" is pretty dangerous to the cyclists, especially if an "arms-race" takes place. But there are many other reasons too, the more the peloton dopes, the more any classic strategy become useless, if you cannot drop a rider no matter what you do, what is the point? Without doping even the most exceptional athlete cannot cover every attack, can have a bad day, may need to pick a balance between strength and climbing capacity and so on. With good doping all this is gone, and you get sprinters climbing like goats. But even more insidiously and finally touching your point, if medical doping is allowed , why cannot the athletes blur the lines between mechanical doping and good equipment technology? Smaller motors and batteries make that very possible if not now in the close future, and it can be done without any punishment it will be done. Maybe the natural evolution of cycling will be motocross.

Well written. I think the scandals of the early/mid 00's ended up with a peloton that vastly reduced the doping they were doing for maybe 8 to 10 years. I think it started ramping up again between 2015 and 2017 and the entire Froome scandal resulted in a new era of a free for all in the peloton.
I think by now we should all be able to agree that everyone responds differently to doping and even to what is being used. In the 00's I think we can agree with US Postal and Kelme were the worst teams with it came to doping programs with Kelme actually being worse. They did have a rider almost die. Are there any teams right now at that level, well your guess is as good as anyone else's guess.
One thing I think we also should know by now is that doping doesn't make you a more consistent rider. That is natural ability. Now riders can learn to limit losses on bad days and doping can help with that, but that's not the same as being a very consistent rider to begin with.

 

[BlueRoads]

I believe ste statute of doping suspicion is often abused to serve an agenda, which is usually to bash the competition of the suspicions fan’s favourite rider. Bernal fans will be suspicious of Pogacar and vice versa.

Of course, many people are also honestly concerned and I have no reason to believe you are not one of them...

Thank you.

 

[Red Rick]

Generally it boils down to absence of evidence being convoluted with evidence of absence and wishful thinking versus basic statistical knowledge that in a population where 5% dopes that %of dopers would be extremely overrepresented at the highest level.

For me, all the example you need is Contador. He got busted for clenbuterol, which is pretty minor stuff and was mostly there cause he **** up somehow. He was actually much stronger the year before and got busted for absolutely nothing.

The other example is all the 3rd tier riders that get busted for EPO but aren't close to even competing at the WT level.

Now as for the motor thing. There is one reason I'm less sceptical than others and that's because the scandal would be so big it can be a bit of a MAD type of thing, and because you realistically need only like 20W to make extreme differences.

 

[Riek s]

Now as for the motor thing. There is one reason I'm less sceptical than others and that's because the scandal would be so big it can be a bit of a MAD type of thing, and because you realistically need only like 20W to make extreme differences.

I agree, the notion of motor is that it we assume it needs to provide power like in the commercial electric bicycles which need 100 - >250W (some even up to 5kw ). Thus a large battery and lots of space for the motor is needed. to deliver 10-20W you need a lot less battery and motor/heat development. (20W is about <5% more power). Bicycles also have been limited in weight due to rules/not manufacturer, so the weight of a potential motor/battery can easily be saved of on the bike itself.
note: that if we assume such a motor is possible in current cycling, I doubt you will hear it when it provides 20W (so other cyclist talking about strange sound is odd to me in any case). Saying that bikes are tested, i don't really know... i don't think it is easy to detect without effectively dismantling the bike.

 

[samhocking]

I agree, the notion of motor is that it we assume it needs to provide power like in the commercial electric bicycles which need 100 - >250W (some even up to 5kw ). Thus a large battery and lots of space for the motor is needed. to deliver 10-20W you need a lot less battery and motor/heat development. (20W is about <5% more power). Bicycles also have been limited in weight due to rules/not manufacturer, so the weight of a potential motor/battery can easily be saved of on the bike itself.
note: that if we assume such a motor is possible in current cycling, I doubt you will hear it when it provides 20W (so other cyclist talking about strange sound is odd to me in any case). Saying that bikes are tested, i don't really know... i don't think it is easy to detect without effectively dismantling the bike.

You wouldn't even fit a 20w motor into an OEM hub these anonymous riders have claimed to have heard them in next to Bahrain, Jumbo & UAE riders. They do actually say they are not motors. ie not electro-magnetic, so if we even take their claim at face value, motors are not what the top teams are using.

 

[DrSahl]

Tbh.. I have been very sparse with watching cycling for many years now.
This debate is not new, I have had this debate about so many other riders... I still remember when people in here defended now defamed dopers to the extend that they almost attacked those that said it was obvious.

Well this is obvious as well. If you look at his overall stats for youth to now and the "sudden" progress, then you know something is off.. its not a big talent, its not some monster effort from training and tactics.. its just new more advanced doping. I would go as far as to say, that just allowed the riders to dope without restrictions, might actually make the sport more interesting, because then they don´t have to hide or having to be "guarded" by the cycling elite, that has no interest in "doping" and "scandals"

Its a shame, because cycling on a even playing field, can actually be about more than raw power! obviously... But those days are gone.
I mean... the way people defend most of these new "suddenly rise to godpower" riders, are like they did with Armstrong.... or Froome for that matter, yes I said it.. Froome. Its painfully obviously and it has hurt the sport a lot.


Does other sports have doping? yes. a lot.. its sad.. but in some of those, it has less impact than a sport like this.
This year I have only watched a few recaps and some of the endings om mountain stages, but tbh.. its so painful to watch.. its like wrestling.. a show for the people, that is rigged..

 

[perico]

Thank God for that!

He’s probably gearing up to ghostwrite Pogacar’s autobiography.

 

[Ripper]

I think these "anonymous riders" (whether they even exist or not) who're insinuating mechanized doping among those teams are complete morons.

What exactly do they hope to achieve? Bike checks already return negative. All this does is help create a climate of suspicion around the peloton & cycling in general, at a time when the sport cannot exactly afford huge scandals (I mean literally, a sponsorship exodus resulting from such a huge scandal right now could be a nail in the coffin).

It's one thing for someone like Antoine Vayer to behave like a clown (he's got a patent on that) & spread xyz wild theories whenever, but riders within the peloton should be more careful if they actually value their own careers. That's even if they exist of course, i.e. it's pretty much the easiest thing in the world to make up imaginary sources.

It is easy to fake. But the peloton is full of stupid people as well, so likely no need to create fictitious accounts.

 

[Riek s]

hmmm did I just read a dutch newspaper stating:

De uitzonderlijke en ongewone tijdrijder in de geletruidrager uitgelegd: Pogacar wil vooral niet te aerodynamisch zijn
TOUR DE FRANCE“Hoe is dit mogelijk? Hij zit als een mijnwerker op zijn fiets!” Tom Dumoulin heeft nog steeds nachtmerries over de tijdrit van vorig jaar op La Planche des Belles Filles. Tadej Pogacar (22) reed er toen iedereen aan gort. Net zoals hij dat deed in de eerste tijdrit in deze Tour de France. Keihard fietsen zonder — schijnbaar — rekening te houden met aerodynamica: hoe doet hij dat?

hln.be
First part translates to:

The exceptional and unusuale timetrialler explained: Pogacar doesn't want to be too aerodynamic.

"How is this possible, he sits like a mineworker on his bike" Tom Dumoulin after TT from last year. Riding very fast - presumably - without taking into account aerodynamics: how does he do it?

The remainder is behind a pay wall...


So for those wondering what the new explanations will be... after the smaller gear, better preparation and more recently the marginal gains by eating rice and training explosiveness uphill... now we get don't try to be to aerodynamic in TT, you will blast everyone away due to raw power.

 

[luckyboy]

who knows

https://twitter.com/x/status/1416420321230524421

View: https://twitter.com/SX7P_Long/status/1416420321230524421

 

[carolina]

Vampires?

 

[Roland Rat]

Turned down his rocket fuel today then. Barely out of breath. Someone clearly had a word after that stage.

 

[BlueRoads]

Vampires?

Yeah, looks very much like it.

 

[Ripper]

Turned down his rocket fuel today then. Barely out of breath. Someone clearly had a word after that stage.

No need to smash it or take risks. 8th place is not too shabby for soft pedalling a time trial. Three stage wins in the bag, two in front of your opponents (i.e. more satisfying), and a huge lead in the GC. All good

 

[DrSahl]

No need to smash it or take risks. 8th place is not too shabby for soft pedalling a time trial. Three stage wins in the bag, two in front of your opponents (i.e. more satisfying), and a huge lead in the GC. All good

There is absolutely no reason to keep up the "power" once you have secured a long enough advance, then you "pedal" down.. riders and teams are not dumb, they have learned about the past riders and their obvious mistakes

 

[kingjr]

who knows

https://twitter.com/x/status/1416420321230524421

View: https://twitter.com/SX7P_Long/status/1416420321230524421

This perhaps?

Heat rash — sometimes called prickly heat or miliaria, is a harmless but very itchy skin rash. It causes small red spots in places where sweat collects, such as the armpits, back, under the breasts, chest, groin, crooks of elbows and knees, and the waist.

Heat rash

Heat rash is harmless but very itchy, with small red spots in places where sweat collects. Find out more about this condition and how to treat it.

www.healthdirect.gov.au

 

[Ripper]

This perhaps?

Heat rash — sometimes called prickly heat or miliaria, is a harmless but very itchy skin rash. It causes small red spots in places where sweat collects, such as the armpits, back, under the breasts, chest, groin, crooks of elbows and knees, and the waist.

Heat rash

Heat rash is harmless but very itchy, with small red spots in places where sweat collects. Find out more about this condition and how to treat it.

www.healthdirect.gov.au

That was my first thought

 

[Mayomaniac]

hmmm did I just read a dutch newspaper stating:


hln.be
First part translates to:

The exceptional and unusuale timetrialler explained: Pogacar doesn't want to be too aerodynamic.

"How is this possible, he sits like a mineworker on his bike" Tom Dumoulin after TT from last year. Riding very fast - presumably - without taking into account aerodynamics: how does he do it?

The remainder is behind a pay wall...


So for those wondering what the new explanations will be... after the smaller gear, better preparation and more recently the marginal gains by eating rice and training explosiveness uphill... now we get don't try to be to aerodynamic in TT, you will blast everyone away due to raw power.

I've heard Slongo saying that they aren't pushing for a rather extreme position for a gc rider because of the extra muscular fatigue that it could create that would hurt your recovery in a stage race. Maybe it's something along those lines?

 

[carolina]

I've heard Slongo saying that they aren't pushing for a rather extreme position for a gc rider because of the extra muscular fatigue that it could create that would hurt your recovery in a stage race. Maybe it's something along those lines?

And I would add that in a more aggressive position he may not be able to put the same watts for such a long period of time.

 

[BullsFan22]

Jeezuz. There wasn't as much thrown around at Froome when he was pedaling like a maniac up Ventoux, among other climbs when he dominated. Pogačar is a natural. Is he doping? Considering the history of cycling, particularly at the top end, most likely. But the attacks on him are more frivolous and fruitful.

 

[Riek s]

I've heard Slongo saying that they aren't pushing for a rather extreme position for a gc rider because of the extra muscular fatigue that it could create that would hurt your recovery in a stage race. Maybe it's something along those lines?

And I would add that in a more aggressive position he may not be able to put the same watts for such a long period of time.

Both are true, but that just makes you less in a TT not better.
Which is what they allude to, as to why he is so good at TTing as well.
Him dominating TT (1st) and very good 2nd on a parcour that suits Power and Aero and not weight at all... him doing so well and even beating others is plain ridiculous when you can't get more aero or don't want to to avoid more fatigue, because these things are not ignored by some of the competitors who do have more power and don't care about the fatigue since they don't need to be at the top of the game every day.

 

[topt]

And I would add that in a more aggressive position he may not be able to put the same watts for such a long period of time.

this, its much harder to push good watts in aero position, you really have to find a good balance betwen aero and pushing watts

 

[topt]

Jeezuz. There wasn't as much thrown around at Froome when he was pedaling like a maniac up Ventoux, among other climbs when he dominated. Pogačar is a natural. Is he doping? Considering the history of cycling, particularly at the top end, most likely. But the attacks on him are more frivolous and fruitful.

it has to do something with him being "eastern european" as I have been taught here and everybody knows that slovenia has a state wide doping program , also been taught here.

 

[Panda Claws]

Froome's thread alone has 1374 pages... let alone the 1611 pages in the Sky thread. I don't think any cyclist ever received more criticism in the Clinic than Froome did.

Pogacar is not even close.