Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[Ripper]

Also Vino's team doctor in 2007, when he went crazy in the Albi TT before getting caught...

Oops, found a reference and recovered from my brain fart! Sorry.

Anywho, I don't think Milan is the key here. Sports/exercise physiologists are always delighted to work with gifted athletes and then will explain what scientifically they see contributing to the results. So they can comment on the impact doping has. And let's be honest, some doped racers have still been amazing physical athletes. For example, Contador was also amazing at clearing lactate and was no doubt gifted (not a donkey).

 

[Ripper]

Tomorrow will be very interesting

 

[Mayomaniac]

Do you have a reference for that? It's something new for me to hear, so just curious.

Here's something that's a bit of a truism, sports physiologists and scientists are always explaining how particular athletes are so good at one thing or another, even if said athlete is actually simply doping like crazy. Lim regarding Landis? How about all the crap about Armstrong? And then there's all those ways of explaining Froome.

I can't find the exact quote, but it's somewhere on the forum after JV managed to bring Millan to Garmin.

Here's another one:
"From ProTour to Academia
Inigo San Millan was formerly a physiologist for teams such as Vitalicio Seguros, ONCE, Saunier Duval, and Astana. For better or worse, he has worked with riders such as Joseba Beloki, Abraham Olano, Chris Horner, Fred Rodriguez, Jorge Jackshe, Leonardo Piepoli, David Millar, and Alexander Vinokourov"
Source: https://nyvelocity.com/articles/interviews/inigo-san-millan/

 

[Tim Cahill]

Excellent sprint, all that zone 2 training has really prepared him well

 

[solo80k]

Tomorrow will be very interesting

In terms of a record breaking performance? I wouldn't mind finishing PDBF below 16:00.

 

[PhiLiz]

He's gonna need an extra boost to not pay for what he did today.

Kek, no problem...

 

[noob]

Kek, no problem...

Yeah I never said his extra boost would be hard to come by

 

[GuntherL1]

His win today was expected. It's not like he was in a two man breakaway yesterday for 30 km and needed to recover.

 

[GuntherL1]

I'm sure he'll take his vitamins tonight, and come back remarkably refreshed tomorrow.

Solid prediction.

 

[Cookster15]

Of course he is on a program similar to other GC contenders but what we are seeing isn't new or better methods or a new doctor but mostly natural progression. Remember Pogi is still only 23. Of course he will be a stronger rider than he was since 2021, 2020 or even 2019 when I first recall noticing him at ToC.

 

[GuntherL1]

Of course he is on a program similar to other GC contenders but what we are seeing isn't new or better methods or a new doctor but mostly natural progression. Remember Pogi is still only 23. Of course he will be a stronger rider than he was since 2021, 2020 or even 2019 when I first recall noticing him at ToC.

LOL. Compare his results the season before joining UAE and after joining UAE. Natural progression

 

[Cookster15]

LOL. Compare his results the season before joining UAE and after joining UAE. Natural progression

I stand by my comment. How old was he before he came to UAE? He was a pup. He is still a pup. He won 2018 Tour de l'Avenir riding for another team. That shows he had GC talent.

 

[GuntherL1]

I stand by my comment. How old was he before he came to UAE? He was a pup. He is still a pup. He won 2018 Tour de l'Avenir riding for another team. That shows he had GC talent.

Sure he's talented, but he didn't win any stages in the Tour de l'Avenir. Not exceptional. However... winning Algarve, California and 3 stages in the Vuelta (including a podium on the GC) the next season is exceptional.
For real talent, you need to check the junior results of Van der Poel, Pidcock and Evenepoel. These guys made consistent progress. Pog? Not so much.

 

[Riek s]

I stand by my comment. How old was he before he came to UAE? He was a pup. He is still a pup. He won 2018 Tour de l'Avenir riding for another team. That shows he had GC talent.

Natural progression is gaining a few watts every year, not 0.5W/kg sustained for longer in less than half a year, while riding a bike his whole life.

He went from top 5 in tour of Slovenia to winning it on one leg while riding backwards.

Already doing mind boggling good in his first tour but clearly fading a bit, then followed by his best ever TT by miles. Before that his TT has been subpar by far, now it is one of his strongest elements. at top of the the world level.. (Froome style). On top of that, we are being told he is so good in the TT because he doesn't focus on the aero aspect so much... because that is what you are going to do in the final TT of the tour.
Now we are being told, just like Armstrong, hwho had very low lactate levels..., because he trains like every pro (amateur) cyclist... very long time at low intensity

Not so long ago we had Froome and his goons, who were incredible with very strange uphill accelerations.... that was because the trained uphill sprints and nobody else did... (every pro/amateur does that).


Looked up his first Vuelta, his best performance there seems to be: (only see data for first 9 stages, but that is enough to get an id i think)
Mas de la Costa: 15:44
Avg Power: 392 W (5.94 W/kg)
Avg Speed: 14.5 kph (9.0 mph)
Avg Gradient: 12.4 percent
Avg Cadence: 86 rpm
Full Stage: 4:35:21


The tour the following year he pushes 6.5W/kg for longer duration. On climbs of <20minutes he probably does closer to 7W/kg now... Mind you this is in less than a year for someone who rides a bike his whole life. If he jumped to 400W that would be called a breakthrough and good progress, he went to 430).


Good that you can still 'believe' though, makes watching probably more enjoyful!

 

[Cookster15]

Sure he's talented, but he didn't win any stages in the Tour de l'Avenir. Not exceptional. However... winning Algarve, California and 3 stages in the Vuelta (including a podium on the GC) the next season is exceptional.
For real talent, you need to check the junior results of Van der Poel, Pidcock and Evenepoel. These guys made consistent progress. Pog? Not so much.

I think he shown enough to say its as much natural progression as better "methods" - there are many variables and not everyone responds the same to both doping and other factors - even mental. Just to be clear I certainly don't think he's clean but I really doubt he has any advantage in this area compared to say Vingegaard.

 

[Riek s]

I think he shown enough to say its as much natural progression as better "methods" - there are many variable and not everyone responds the same to both doping and other factors - even mental. Just to be clear I certainly don't think he's clean but I really doubt he has any advantage in this area compared to say Vingegaard.

Dunno about that. We could say that for all ages, that all the competition didn't have a disadvantage because they also used. But the doping response can differ between riders and also the protecting hand, helping hand is not the same.
Take lance for instance, doping in the 1991-1994 he was a very good one day rider.. after his cancer, also doping he won 7 Tours. We just can't say well the difference now is his mental part. His preparation was just different en better suited/tailed towards him. Something his competition might not have had to the same level. I wouldn't rule out it is the same now. (That said Vingegaard has the same upwards bullet curve as Pogacar so... )

 

[Cookster15]

Natural progression is gaining a few watts every year, not 0.5W/kg sustained for longer in less than half a year, while riding a bike his whole life.

He went from top 5 in tour of Slovenia to winning it on one leg while riding backwards.

Already doing mind boggling good in his first tour but clearly fading a bit, then followed by his best ever TT by miles. Before that his TT has been subpar by far, now it is one of his strongest elements. at top of the the world level.. (Froome style). On top of that, we are being told he is so good in the TT because he doesn't focus on the aero aspect so much... because that is what you are going to do in the final TT of the tour.
Now we are being told, just like Armstrong, hwho had very low lactate levels..., becase he trains like every pro (amateur) cyclist... very long time at low intensity

Not so long ago we had Froome and his goons, who were incredible with very strange uphill accelerations.... that was because the trained uphill sprints and nobody else did... (every pro/amateur does that).


Looked up his first Vuelta, his best performance there seems to be: (only see data for first 9 stages, but that is enough to get an id i think)
Mas de la Costa: 15:44
Avg Power: 392 W (5.94 W/kg)
Avg Speed: 14.5 kph (9.0 mph)
Avg Gradient: 12.4 percent
Avg Cadence: 86 rpm
Full Stage: 4:35:21


The tour the following year he pushes 6.5W/kg for longer duration. On climbs of <20minutes he probably does closer to 7W/kg now... Mind you this is in less than a year for someone who rides a bike his whole life.

Thanks for quoting some stats. But natural progression at 20/21 years of age is certainly more than a "few" watts. There are many variables, the conjecture it is all due to his doctors isn't convincing me.

Agree he did mind bogglingly good in 2020 but his fading was to be expected for a rider his age. Edit: The "fade" was Col de la Loze - he may have an issue at high altitude?

In 2020 his TT has been subpar by far

Not true. 2nd 2018 Slovenian TT titles at whilst still only 19. 1st 2019 and 2020 Slovenian National time trial titles - in June 2020 he beat Roglic. We also know riders peak for certain races so we can't look at Vuelta vs the TdF. Watts per kilo always needs to be looked at relative to the duration of the climb. More evidence needed.

Again, I am struggling to see why he is more suspicious than Vingegaard or the others.

And Pogacar shows nothing like Lance's transformation pre and post cancer

 

[roundabout]

Pogacar's best performance in the 2019 Vuelta was actually

Santuario del Acebo: 26:45
Avg Power: 424 W (6.42 W/kg)
Avg Gradient: 9.5%
Avg Cadence: 91 rpm

Power Analysis: Tadej Pogacar's Vuelta a España, part 2

The revelation of the 2019 Vuelta a España, Tadej Pogačar won three stages and attacked his way onto the final podium. Today, we examine his power data from the second half of the race.

www.velonews.com

 

[GuntherL1]

2018: lost more than a minute to Tratnik, but beat famous TT powerhouses like Penko, Gazvoda and Gregor Groselj.

____MOVED TO UAE

2019: Beat Mohoric and Tratnik
2020: Beat Roglic

Thanks for proving my point.

Why Pogacar is more suspicious than Vingegaard? Vingegaard never gained 3+ minutes solo on the best climbers in the world in the TdF. Remember stage 8 in the TdF last year. That hasn't happened since Landis in 2006 and we know what he did.



Not true. 2nd 2018 Slovenian TT titles at whilst still only 19. 1st 2019 and 2020 Slovenian National time trial titles - in June 2020 he beat Roglic. We also know riders peak for certain races so we can't look at Vuelta vs the TdF. Watts per kilo always needs to be looked at relative to the duration of the climb. More evidence needed.

Again, I am struggling to see why he is more suspicious than Vingegaard or the others.

And Pogacar shows nothing like Lance's transformation pre and post cancer
[/QUOTE]

 

[Ripper]

Thanks for quoting some stats. But natural progression at 20/21 years of age is certainly more than a "few" watts. There are many variables, the conjecture it is all due to his doctors isn't convincing me.

Agree he did mind bogglingly good in 2020 but his fading was to be expected for a rider his age. Edit: The "fade" was Col de la Loze - he may have an issue at high altitude?



Not true. 2nd 2018 Slovenian TT titles at whilst still only 19. 1st 2019 and 2020 Slovenian National time trial titles - in June 2020 he beat Roglic. We also know riders peak for certain races so we can't look at Vuelta vs the TdF. Watts per kilo always needs to be looked at relative to the duration of the climb. More evidence needed.

Again, I am struggling to see why he is more suspicious than Vingegaard or the others.

And Pogacar shows nothing like Lance's transformation pre and post cancer

He is more suspicious because he checks all the boxes. Long climbs (FTP and power to weight), short punchy climbs (VO2 and above), sprints, time trials (but hey, less focus on aero ... wtf?), recovery, long stages, short stages, etc. So far Vingegaard appears to be great for longer climbs and TTs, but not so sure about short punchy stuff, massive long efforts, and sprinting, or even the same level of recovery. Yesterday pog was going shoulder to shoulder with classics specialists at the front, in the spring he was throwing down something fierce with van der Poel in Flanders. Whenever someone seems to be able to just "do it all", when the headlines start saying they are extraterrestrial and they are great at everything with absolutely no weaknesses, well, that is usually a clue that they are more suspicious than others.

Thank goodness we are not seeing pharmstrong or froome levels of transformation. Funny thing about Armstrong is - he was super-charging before cancer, but he still had a transformation! He also had amazing luck and great skills over his seven friggin' wins. Just think that if he hadn't tried that comeback he still would have those wins in the record books. Absolutely bonkers.

 

[Ripper]

Pogacar's best performance in the 2019 Vuelta was actually

Santuario del Acebo: 26:45
Avg Power: 424 W (6.42 W/kg)
Avg Gradient: 9.5%
Avg Cadence: 91 rpm

Power Analysis: Tadej Pogacar's Vuelta a España, part 2

The revelation of the 2019 Vuelta a España, Tadej Pogačar won three stages and attacked his way onto the final podium. Today, we examine his power data from the second half of the race.

www.velonews.com

Have you ever ridden 6.4-6.5 w/kg? It is ... an interesting sensation

 

[Mex_17]

They don't seem very interested in questioning or trying to catch Pog's doping, so realistically, is he going to just run away with the TdF every year for the next 10+ years? It's not even worth watching at this point, and he's not even in his "prime" years yet. Unless it's a bunch sprint stage or pan flat TTs, Pogacar can win almost every stage he wants to.

Or will someone else eventually come up with a better doping program than him? What's the end game here?

 

[FroomeWagon]

I can't find the exact quote, but it's somewhere on the forum after JV managed to bring Millan to Garmin.

Here's another one:
"From ProTour to Academia
Inigo San Millan was formerly a physiologist for teams such as Vitalicio Seguros, ONCE, Saunier Duval, and Astana. For better or worse, he has worked with riders such as Joseba Beloki, Abraham Olano, Chris Horner, Fred Rodriguez, Jorge Jackshe, Leonardo Piepoli, David Millar, and Alexander Vinokourov"
Source: https://nyvelocity.com/articles/interviews/inigo-san-millan/

I can't find the article, but I am almost 100% positive I read once that he has one of Contador's autographed yellow jerseys framed and hanging on the wall in his office. He was at Astana in 2007, when Contador won his first TDF yellow jersey. Probably also worked with Contador at ONCE, but I don't know that for certain.

His two-year deal with Garmin-Transitions will mark a return to the service of professional cycling teams after a two-year hiatus. San Millán has previously worked with Spanish teams including ONCE and Saunier-Duval, as well as Astana in 2007.

https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/who-is-dr-inigo-san-millan/

I believe he has worked at the University of Colorado in Boulder (champions center), University of Colorado Anschutz Medical Center in Denver and appears now to be at CU Colorado Springs where he most likely is working with athletics at the US Olympic Center.

 

[Riek s]

Pogacar's best performance in the 2019 Vuelta was actually

Santuario del Acebo: 26:45
Avg Power: 424 W (6.42 W/kg)
Avg Gradient: 9.5%
Avg Cadence: 91 rpm

Power Analysis: Tadej Pogacar's Vuelta a España, part 2

The revelation of the 2019 Vuelta a España, Tadej Pogačar won three stages and attacked his way onto the final podium. Today, we examine his power data from the second half of the race.

www.velonews.com

Ok so he got better in the vuelta? since his first 9 days he didn't break 6W/kg (on smaller climbs)

 

[GuntherL1]

They don't seem very interested in questioning or trying to catch Pog's doping, so realistically, is he going to just run away with the TdF every year for the next 10+ years? It's not even worth watching at this point, and he's not even in his "prime" years yet. Unless it's a bunch sprint stage or pan flat TTs, Pogacar can win almost every stage he wants to.

Or will someone else eventually come up with a better doping program than him? What's the end game here?

Yep. The individual bad days make a GT interesting. I remember the TdF in 1989. Lemond and Fignon with their occasional mini-breakdowns. Even Merckx had them in a smaller and weaker field. Armstrong didn't have them in the TdF, but we all know why.
Congratulations to Gianetti, the dirtiest rider and TD in history. who is still allowed to do his thing in cycling.

I wonder what Pogs competitors think. They must know something is going on.