• The Cycling News forum is looking to add some volunteer moderators with Red Rick's recent retirement. If you're interested in helping keep our discussions on track, send a direct message to @SHaines here on the forum, or use the Contact Us form to message the Community Team.

    In the meanwhile, please use the Report option if you see a post that doesn't fit within the forum rules.

    Thanks!

Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

Page 54 - Get up to date with the latest news, scores & standings from the Cycling News Community.
I cant and thats why i’ve been off from the sports in three-four years. I decided to sit out the Froome years because it was either soul crushing boring or frankly an insult to my intelligence every time i saw him on a bike or listening to the cheerleaders in media who pretends the sports never had any problem or instigating a bit of healthy scepicism.

I actually turned on the first mountain stage this Tour for the first time in some years knowing that Froome is back to his normal Barloworld levels wrapped up in some excuses. What do i see instead? Another best ever candidate presenting himself with seemingly endless abilities he can do on a bike and the media back to being cheerleaders and ”surprised” (ok our commentators talked like they knew what was going on tbf. They just cant go out and say it).
But what could be done by the media? They can't just go out and say: "And here is Pogacar, clearly on doping, 3 minutes clear of Carapz who is the real leader of this grand tour"... In order to put a reasonable amount of media pressure on Pogacar, some kind of proof is needed first and him being an outlier really isn't proof - it's just cause for suspicion.

For instance during the Armstrong era, there was quite a lot of skepticism in French and British media if I recall correctly. But he was kind of caught with cortisone in 1999, there were other cyclists who were publicly accusing him of doping, the masseuse, Betty, etc. It was much stronger doping case compared to Pogacar (currently). I mean if there is ever a slightest direct indication he might be doping, I'm sure the media will be all over him.
 
But what could be done by the media? They can't just go out and say: "And here is Pogacar, clearly on doping, 3 minutes clear of Carapz who is the real leader of this grand tour"... In order to put a reasonable amount of media pressure on Pogacar, some kind of proof is needed first and him being an outlier really isn't proof - it's just cause for suspicion.

For instance during the Armstrong era, there was quite a lot of skepticism in French and British media if I recall correctly. But he was kind of caught with cortisone in 1999, there were other cyclists who were publicly accusing him of doping, the masseuse, Betty, etc. It was much stronger doping case compared to Pogacar (currently). I mean if there is ever a slightest direct indication he might be doping, I'm sure the media will be all over him.

I dont know what they could do but i do know what they shouldnt do and that is going in hardcore defense mode towards ”their” riders. We’ve seen the likes of Liggett, Duffield, Kimmage and a lot more made it their personal mission to defend certain riders from blame, either because they are affiliates or compatriots or what have you. Only too see them backtrack from everything once it all crumbles down and start all over again when the next big thing turns up.

The french media did some good stuff during the Lance era with his failed cortisone test but it was also because Lance was highly unlikable. They wouldnt have done that to a home rider so thats bad also.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Luthor and Koronin
There's a looong post from me coming, I'm already warning you, just three smaller things now:

1) Of course there's doping in other sports, but in most other sports the technical side is considered to be more important for the overall success than in cycling. That's not meant to say that in football or tennis doping doesn't help immensely, but still for tennis you need hours and hours and hours and hours of technical training during your youth to be competitive. In football, no amount of doping will ever make you Messi.
In the sports where the physiological side is as important as in cycling (athletics) the doping questions are all around as well.
That's one of the reasons why the focus is more on doping in cycling than in some other sports.

2) Second, regarding the outliers: In my opinion, formed by many years of watching sports intensively and following results and stories, there are no clean outliers. When there is a big outlier, he's doping. That doesn't mean that those who aren't are clean. Just when there's a huge outlier - no chance he's clean anymore. Unless it's such a niche sport that there isn't a real professional level.
Merckx, Anquetil, Fignon, (Indurain), Ullrich, Pantani, Armstrong, ((Froome)) - how can we believe Pogacar to be clean? Instead the question is what and how much I guess.

3) If nothing else Aderlass showed that pretty simple blood bag doping is not hindered by the biological passport, so, nice idea, but obviously it doesn't work.
 
I dont know what they could do but i do know what they shouldnt do and that is going in hardcore defense mode towards ”their” riders. We’ve seen the likes of Liggett, Duffield, Kimmage and a lot more made it their personal mission to defend certain riders from blame, either because they are affiliates or compatriots or what have you. Only too see them backtrack from everything once it all crumbles down and start all over again when the next big thing turns up.

The french media did some good stuff during the Lance era with his failed cortisone test but it was also because Lance was highly unlikable. They wouldnt have done that to a home rider so thats bad also.
well, GCN is openly questioning, I wonder where were they when sky was on board
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVQVf0s6X_g&lc=UgwYFioLRRzONpA0-BN4AaABAg.9PQ3-wpDYEE9PQMGwkISSa
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ripper and mollusc
it more like we cycling fans are looking at outliers in other sports, go on lets say tennis forum and you will not find a "clinic" there and I am 100% sure there is no less doping in tennis
I've actually been surprised to find a somehwat significant amount of posters on TTW basically say "yeah they all on it lol"

I guess cycling has become the only sport in the world where its own fans accuse every outlier of doping; I mean based on history understandable but its really sucks.

You'll find a looot of Federer fans accusing Nadal or Djokovic of doping tho
 
  • Like
Reactions: Koronin and Bolder
But what could be done by the media? They can't just go out and say: "And here is Pogacar, clearly on doping, 3 minutes clear of Carapz who is the real leader of this grand tour"... In order to put a reasonable amount of media pressure on Pogacar, some kind of proof is needed first and him being an outlier really isn't proof - it's just cause for suspicion.

For instance during the Armstrong era, there was quite a lot of skepticism in French and British media if I recall correctly. But he was kind of caught with cortisone in 1999, there were other cyclists who were publicly accusing him of doping, the masseuse, Betty, etc. It was much stronger doping case compared to Pogacar (currently). I mean if there is ever a slightest direct indication he might be doping, I'm sure the media will be all over him.
The problem is that those who are invested in the doping game spend all of their time playing it. They are committed to it, their livelihood depends on it, they have created a web of misdirection and deniability that is nearly impossible to pierce by even the most dogged journalists or antidopage authorities. And even if you could come up with evidence, say, on an Anderlass level, the public would just shrug and say, well of course. If cycling wants to be a clean sport then it has to come from the riders up rather than top down.

Same with athletics, by the way, although recent events are making cycling look like amateurs...
 
Gianetti's heritage:
As a rider he nearly died in 1998 because he experimented with PFC.

His main achievements as a manager:
2007: Mayo: EPO
2008: Ricco and Piepoli: Cera
2009: Fernandez de la Puebla: EPO
2011: Cobo (abnormal values in biological passport)

https://www.bikeradar.com/news/blog-gianetti-is-ingrained-with-doping/

Why are Armstrong and Bruyneel banned from the sport while this guy can still be general manager of a cycling team?
I wanted to investigate more about Mauro Gianetti and I read the first posts of this thread and at the same time read the wiki history. His history is very, very damming. My question is the same as Gunther in this post. Why is this guy in cycling.

My opinion is that he wasn't expecting Pogacar to be this big responder. Just like everyone else he dopes. But there has to be a difference. Now we now Armstrong was a big responder as well. I know he had the UCI helping him but he was a big responder. Some podcast talking about the other riders looking to Pogacar like he is a robot, but his coaches were also looking at him like "shut, we had no clue what we had created". If the media and the UCI do not put pressure on Gianetti and Pogacar we will have Armstrong 2.0 all over again. And I agree with one of the last posters that wrote that I was excited to see this much attacking from him, but then my excitement went to cero. When you see this huge differences you shouldn't be happy. Not even from the competition side of it. I never saw Indurain's wins 2, 3, 4 and 5. They were very boring. And Lance's Tour got to a point of boredom as well.
 
Last edited:
I wanted to investigate more about Mauro Gianetti and I read the first posts of this thread and at the same time read the wiki history. His history is very, very damming. My question is the same as Gunther in this post. Why is this guy in cycling.

My opinion is that he wasn't expecting Pogacar to be this big responder. Just like everyone else he dopes. But there has to be a difference. Now we now Armstrong was a big responder as well. I know he had the UCI helping him but he was a big responder. Some podcast talking about the other riders looking to Pogacar like he is a robot, but his coaches were also looking at him like "shut, we had to clue what we had created". If the media and the UCI do not put pressure on Gianetti and Pogacar we will have Armstrong 2.0 all over again. And I agree with one of the last posters that wrote that I was excited to see this much attacking from him, but then my excitement went to cero. When you see this huge differences you shouldn't be happy. Not even from the competition side of it. I never saw Indurain's wins 2, 3, 4 and 5. They were very boring. And Lance's Tour got to a point of boredom as well.
What's PFC?

Anyway, one thing about Pogacar is that he's not from a cycling country with a huge amount of media sway, so there's that.
 
What can the media/commentators do? The very first thing they really need to do is to stop pushing specific riders on the fans. NASCAR commentators have done this in the past and in that sport it has ended with major backlash from the fans. The newer, esp the newer recently retired drivers turned commentators are much better about not pushing drivers on the fans and sticking to actually what's going on and yes sometimes telling stories, but the stories are from first hand knowledge. The next thing is to stop trying to make things sound more exciting than what is obviously going on in the event.

That would be a good place to start.
 
well, GCN is openly questioning, I wonder where were they when sky was on board
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVQVf0s6X_g&lc=UgwYFioLRRzONpA0-BN4AaABAg.9PQ3-wpDYEE9PQMGwkISSa

Would have been good if we didnt knew why there are all these sceptical articles.

Will be a lot of questions why Slovenia suddenly is the new hotbed in international cycling whilst it was taken for granted that everybody who could ride a bike in UK became the best cyclists who ever lived for some years.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • Like
Reactions: Tobi and mollusc

Everything's okay, he gets tested a lot.

On a serious note, this is all I'm asking for: cycling media not totally ignoring the topic.

Rasmussen was fired by Rabobank during the 2007 Tour because the heat got too much. Now I'm not expecting anything like that (although...) the fact Pogacar is so young & so dominant means he can't go on for years & years massacring everyone & just smile. If he really was clean & this good, he'd be absolutely self-aware of "how" his performances look. But we just get the same handwaving as Armstrong, i.e. "I've never failed a test, so all is good".

Would have been good if we didnt knew why there are all these sceptical articles. A classic case of pointed fingers towards the eastern bloc (in case you wondered were Slovenia is located on the map these articles will let you know).

Will be a lot of questions why Slovenia suddenly is the new hotbed in international cycling whilst it was taken for granted that everybody who could ride a bike in UK became the best cyclists who ever lived for some years.

I think anyone pointing the finger at Slovenia in particular is being extremely disingenuous & ignoring the real elephant in the room, i.e. the United Arab Emirates, their money, influence & the team UAE once was: Lampre. That and Giannetti himself being a creep (& all the skeletons in his closet which make him equal to Bruyneel in moral terms, or maybe worse).

It's weird to me how anyone could pretend Slovenia is an issue in a Tour rendered ridicule by Bahrain & UAE (with old man Lefevere at DQS also throwing caution to the wind for whatever demented reason he has).
 
I wanted to investigate more about Mauro Gianetti and I read the first posts of this thread and at the same time read the wiki history. His history is very, very damming. My question is the same as Gunther in this post. Why is this guy in cycling.

My opinion is that he wasn't expecting Pogacar to be this big responder. Just like everyone else he dopes. But there has to be a difference. Now we now Armstrong was a big responder as well. I know he had the UCI helping him but he was a big responder. Some podcast talking about the other riders looking to Pogacar like he is a robot, but his coaches were also looking at him like "shut, we had to clue what we had created". If the media and the UCI do not put pressure on Gianetti and Pogacar we will have Armstrong 2.0 all over again. And I agree with one of the last posters that wrote that I was excited to see this much attacking from him, but then my excitement went to cero. When you see this huge differences you shouldn't be happy. Not even from the competition side of it. I never saw Indurain's wins 2, 3, 4 and 5. They were very boring. And Lance's Tour got to a point of boredom as well.

Indurain years was another case of watching paint dry but to be fair to Mig he at least held back most of the times (except in time trials). He could’ve destroyed everyone at every point if he wished (La Plagne and Hautacam was him unleashed) but he knew it was wiser to adopt a calculated more cautious method. Of course the opposition would feel they raced for second but that comes with the territory of being multiple winner.

Its extremely worrying that the peleton already feel this level of despair towards a rider that i get the impression they do with Tadej. Such is the level of the farce this time around.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Cookster15

Everything's okay, he gets tested a lot.

On a serious note, this is all I'm asking for: cycling media not totally ignoring the topic.
Perhaps coincidentally, that was the final question granted to the 90 or so international journalists who had logged in to Pogačar’s rest day press conference, with the remainder of the time dedicated to Slovenian-language media.
Can't recall where I've seen this before...
 
Are there any examples of UAE actually exerting that power and influence they allegedly have or are we just extrapolating?

Extrapolating of course.

But state backed sports teams aren't the best idea, especially in this instance where a load of money & influence is involved.

I mean I might be a tinfoil hat lunatic, but for example I had a little laugh when Total Direct Energie came to UAE's rescue on Friday in the 250km stage. Anyone who looks at Total & their strategic presence in the United Arab Emirates might just draw some cynical conclusions.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Luthor
Extrapolating of course.

But state backed sports teams aren't the best idea, especially in this instance where a load of money & influence is involved.

I mean I might be a tinfoil hat lunatic, but for example I had a little laugh when Total Direct Energie came to UAE's rescue on Friday in the 250km stage. Anyone who looks at Total & their strategic presence in the United Arab Emirates might just draw some cynical conclusions.
The conclusion would be that Total Direct Energie was bribed by UAE, which is something that has always happened super often in the history of the sport long before UAE arrived. I'm happy not to point fingers at Slovenia as such, but I'd be wary of simply replacing one prejudice for another.
 
The conclusion would be that Total Direct Energie was bribed by UAE, which is something that has always happened super often in the history of the sport long before UAE arrived. I'm happy not to point fingers at Slovenia as such, but I'd be wary of simply replacing one prejudice for another.

I only react to what I see.

If we're going into prejudice territory, we might as well admit we're prejudiced against Giannetti himself who I previously described as a creep. I stand by that assertion & say the Giannetti/Pogacar duo are one of the most obvious farces we've had since Bruyneel & his mutations. The Bruyneel, Lance, Thomas Weisel team was the winning formula back then. Now we have UAE, Giannetti & Pogacar.

And 13 years ago the authorities stuck a fork in Giannetti's first real winning Frankenstein creation (Ricco) but now, the anti-dope tests seem to have begun malfunctioning on a Lance scale.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ripper
not only its fun but its also a very welcomed shift from past decade where sky train would do basically same thing - uncontested win BUT in an infinitely more boring manner - that was as unwatchable as it gets so i do appreciate mvdp,alaphillipe,van aert, pogacar and the lot

also one notable difference is that im not being lectured on marginal gains, in a way pogacar is way more honest than sky ever was, he just does his thing and then we dont hear about magical socks that can get you 20 watts - incidentaly if i asked you to list of the least likely tdf winners ever, froome,wiggo and thomas would be unchallenged at the top

if you watched any sport for past few decades you would have to be insane to not understand that doping is omnipresent, so i can live with that, what i cannot live with is when the clowns of the past start honking from their comically large horses - gcn didnt even take 24 hours to bring up suspiscion about pogacar, meanwhile good ol cav is just amazing story and froome is back to his barloworld self pittyparty

all im saying is nothing has changed from the past, we are just recycling the same story, but now its at least balls to the wall

absolutely this. sports is an entertainment business. this TdF has been very entertaining indeed. those brit winners were, as said, much more improbable. and the racing much more dull.
 
I cant and thats why i’ve been off from the sports in three-four years. I decided to sit out the Froome years because it was either soul crushing boring or frankly an insult to my intelligence every time i saw him on a bike or listening to the cheerleaders in media who pretends the sports never had any problem or instigating a bit of healthy scepicism.

I actually turned on the first mountain stage this Tour for the first time in some years knowing that Froome is back to his normal Barloworld levels wrapped up in some excuses. What do i see instead? Another best ever candidate presenting himself with seemingly endless abilities he can do on a bike and the media back to being cheerleaders and ”surprised” (ok our commentators talked like they knew what was going on tbf. They just cant go out and say it).


the cycling you would enjoy watching would be incredibly boring. in all sports you need to find the super talents and give them a boost. its just entertainment. in what other sense does it 'matter' who can run or cycle a tiny bit faster than another person?
 
Well at least they are talking about it, I guess.

But how is "he wins everything all year round" now an argument against doping lol...
They claim that he is consistent but it is not consistency, he is perfect. No missteps physically or tactically. A 21 year old. He wins all the time. No one including Froome, Contador, Nibali, Quintana, Bernal, Evenepoel has that kind of perfectness all year round. Which 21 year old has that level of savvy? Most just want to goof around. He is making of mockery of experience. He is at least 5% above the others in w/kg.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Koronin

TRENDING THREADS