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Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

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Thank you for this comment! I thought about posting it but decided not to. Glad someone else did. Add to the fact that this rider is coming from a country where quite a few here don’t seem to know much about, and you get double the criticism because it’s not your typical ‘cycling crazy nation,’ and it’s ‘Eastern European’ so it must terrible…
I don't that type of "hate" about slovenia, why slovenia can't have talented riders? Talent can appear in every country.
If someday joao almeida makes great performances like pogacar, they will tell the same about my country.
 
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Jul 4, 2021
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So what exactly is Pogacar taking? It's not like blood doping, where he regains stamina more than other riders. He's blowing rested specialists out of the water on week one. Clearly it's something that provides a massive physical advantage. I'm just curious if it's some type of steroids that aren't detectable yet, or HGH, or what.

Whatever it is, I'm amazed that it can't be detected through drug testing, because it's so obvious. This is like Barry Bonds level doping success. Do they actually want to catch dopers, or is the testing just a sham?

And is the Olympic testing any better/different?
 
So what exactly is Pogacar taking? It's not like blood doping, where he regains stamina more than other riders. He's blowing rested specialists out of the water on week one. Clearly it's something that provides a massive physical advantage. I'm just curious if it's some type of steroids that aren't detectable yet, or HGH, or what.

Whatever it is, I'm amazed that it can't be detected through drug testing, because it's so obvious. This is like Barry Bonds level doping success. Do they actually want to catch dopers, or is the testing just a sham?

And is the Olympic testing any better/different?
Do certain teams get more of a pass? Teams that might help benefit the UCI?
 
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Do certain teams get more of a pass? Teams that might help benefit the UCI?

I'm genuinely curious what the "testing" process is like. Do they store samples for the future? Or is it just basically a sham, where they test for things that were being used years ago, that no one takes anymore. I suspect that's the case, since Armstrong dodged failed tests for his whole career, even though everyone knew he was doping, and the UCI was trying hard to catch him.

Point being, I assume that whatever Pogacar is taking will be available to other riders in the near future. What is it? And how difficult is it to test for? Roglic looked ripped compared to last year, so I assume he upped his doping game for this TDF, after losing to Pogacar last time at the PDBF, but then he got injured.
 
Cycling fans always complaining. When gc favorites attack just in the last km they say " what a boring race again, i miss the old days", now we are seeing again long range attacks and people complain "this riders are on drugs, unbelievable, it couldn't be like that". What the hell people want?

I like attacks i can believe in. Beliefs that doesnt include some 50 km away attacks, pulling away from organised chasers at every inch on the road whilst laughing and sprinting up a col on the big ring. We have seen this for the past 30 years, everyone with an asterisk to their name if not downright stripped of their victories, or (in the best cases) some shady stuffs like TUEs on demand, another year different cheater.
 
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So what exactly is Pogacar taking? It's not like blood doping, where he regains stamina more than other riders. He's blowing rested specialists out of the water on week one. Clearly it's something that provides a massive physical advantage. I'm just curious if it's some type of steroids that aren't detectable yet, or HGH, or what.

Whatever it is, I'm amazed that it can't be detected through drug testing, because it's so obvious. This is like Barry Bonds level doping success. Do they actually want to catch dopers, or is the testing just a sham?

And is the Olympic testing any better/different?

Oxygen vector doping doesn't "just" improve your stamina regen. It allows you to go harder for longer. Not necessarily in terms of peak power, no - but in terms of threshold power, which matters far more in the mountains.

Now, i don't think that oxygen vector doping's behind such performances alone and by itself - there's probably other things in there to help build muscle mass and such - but remember that it's still quite easy to do blood transfusions without being caught. None of the Aderlass athletes seemed to have trouble with the bio-pass.

Of course, it could also be the case that it's some new kind of techno-wunderdrug. We don't know. But we also don't know anywhere near enough to rule out the "oldschool" methods of oxygen vector doping, just carried out with microdosing to fly under the radar
 
Believable long attacks. You can attack and take like 30 seconds. Putting 3 minutes into GC favorites in an all-alone attack and you barely look tired is basically from Armstrong era. I was excited when Pog attacked so early but when I saw his rhythm and how he destroys everyone my excitement went to 0.

I think back to the 2019 Vuelta stage 20 when Pogacar did a long range attack and stayed away to end up on the podium. On the final climb Roglic and Valverde put in an attack (more or less together) and rode together to basically save their 1st and 2nd ahead of Pogacar. Pogacar didn't look that exhausted at the end of that stage, while it was obvious Valverde and Roglic gave everything they had on that stage (and stayed ahead of Pog for the final GC placings).
 
I think back to the 2019 Vuelta stage 20 when Pogacar did a long range attack and stayed away to end up on the podium. On the final climb Roglic and Valverde put in an attack (more or less together) and rode together to basically save their 1st and 2nd ahead of Pogacar. Pogacar didn't look that exhausted at the end of that stage, while it was obvious Valverde and Roglic gave everything they had on that stage (and stayed ahead of Pog for the final GC placings).

Of all the things to look for as a sign of doping a subjective assessment of how tired someone looks is one of the worst!

FWIW, I try to keep drugs and such out of it when watching cycling and just enjoy the racing, life's too short, but I am struggling with this.
 
I see nobody is mentioning the "crazy" 6.3watts/kg Pog did on Romme an Columbier
really? His "performance" has been the debate for 10 pages now. 6.3W/kg was an estimate on Romme. Not clear if that has taken weather/road into account, but i believe this was estimated based on VAM. From Columbier i didn't see any estimation. For proper numbers we would need numbers from other riders in that stage and I haven't seen anything about this.

however if you assume the 6.3W/kg @ face value... he would have had this performance over two climbs after each other. This is a on the high side of things, if you than take into account the weather and how this stage was raced, it is absolutely ridiculous.
 
Do certain teams get more of a pass? Teams that might help benefit the UCI?
I think probably just a theory based on the evidence from Aderlass, but it's assumed soluble or synthetic haemoglobin is being used by UAE & Bahrain which can't be detected by the bio passport and that due to Covid restrictions last year and this year within the Tour de France, the chance of being found in possession of it is slim. Add to the fact it doesn't even look like a doping product. La Flamme Rouge has a good article on this today.
 
Oxygen vector doping doesn't "just" improve your stamina regen. It allows you to go harder for longer. Not necessarily in terms of peak power, no - but in terms of threshold power, which matters far more in the mountains.

Now, i don't think that oxygen vector doping's behind such performances alone and by itself - there's probably other things in there to help build muscle mass and such - but remember that it's still quite easy to do blood transfusions without being caught. None of the Aderlass athletes seemed to have trouble with the bio-pass.

Of course, it could also be the case that it's some new kind of techno-wunderdrug. We don't know. But we also don't know anywhere near enough to rule out the "oldschool" methods of oxygen vector doping, just carried out with microdosing to fly under the radar

Thank you for this post. I think the problem with current controls for oxygen vector doping isn't that the bio pass can't detect micro dosing but that the evidence isn't strong enough to prove in court. Pretty sure even autologous blood is in theory detectable (age of RBCs). The other thing is some riders have been caught by the passport but not for years later - I think it was 8 years later for one rider whose name escapes me?

The other possibility is the UCI are looking the other way. It would not be the first time.

But who knows how long before the truth on Pogi and Gianetti comes out.
 
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really? His "performance" has been the debate for 10 pages now. 6.3W/kg was an estimate on Romme. Not clear if that has taken weather/road into account, but i believe this was estimated based on VAM. From Columbier i didn't see any estimation. For proper numbers we would need numbers from other riders in that stage and I haven't seen anything about this.

however if you assume the 6.3W/kg @ face value... he would have had this performance over two climbs after each other. This is a on the high side of things, if you than take into account the weather and how this stage was raced, it is absolutely ridiculous.
I dont get it what the weather has to do with it and from what I know Pogacar prefers rain over heat; anyway if the numbers are true this would put him below last years Peyresourde; the 6,3 is also estimation for Columbier based on the article posted a few posts up
 
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I dont get it what the weather has to do with it and from what I know Pogacar prefers rain over heat; anyway if the numbers are true this would put him below last years Peyresourde
Pogacar loving rain doesn't mean he goes faster in the rain. It just means his power goes down less than the other riders.

The fact he broke the Romme record, then almost broke the Colombiere record while both records were set in good weather is extremely suspicious.
 
Pogacar loving rain doesn't mean he goes faster in the rain. It just means his power goes down less than the other riders.

The fact he broke the Romme record, then almost broke the Colombiere record while both records were set in good weather is extremely suspicious.
are there any studies that show your power goes down in the rain, honest question I dont know ?
 
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Dozens of riders died during the EPO era because they had to play along with the cheaters. I don't claim to be morally superior. I might do the same if I were in his position. The question remains whether it is important to pursue the truth. I think it is even when it compromises your entertainment.
And the toll it took on those who didn't die but felt they had to compete - Pantani, Ullrich; I'm sure there are many others.

And those who are clean but can't compete and either scrape by as domestique fodder or quit the sport entirely.

But hey, as long as it's entertaining, who gives a feck, right?
 
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I think the guys fighting for second should really start treating that like a potential first... for either in a few weeks or years from now. No matter what sort of program they're on at their end, we've seen the Pogacar "I'm a literal godman on a bike who rides without break a sweat" level has a habit of incurring blowback sooner or later (on that front, I don't even think Froome is safe & sound yet either). Yesterday was a small little attack at Tignes & Pogacar still rode away like Riis at Hautacam or Lance in 2001 or 2002. It's as obvious as it gets because such a performance over the entire weekend has pretty much never been done without a huge doping program... & everyone can see it.

Who knows, maybe even Roglic will eventually get his Tour title (i.e. the 2020 one).
 
It'd be nice if someone could pose a realistic challenge for Pogacar in stage 11.
Something like a collective attack on the first Ventoux descent, him dropping like in Itzulia and then 4-5 teams drilling it in the valley. That way he'd have to go all out on the second Ventoux.

Not gonna happen, I know, but one can hope.
 
are there any studies that show your power goes down in the rain, honest question I dont know ?
Not that I know of, but there are studies looking at the effect of rain on energy metabolism markers in both hot and cold conditions for runners. The results suggest that rain may help performance in hot (33c) conditions but may hinder performance in cold (5c) conditions.
 
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I don't understand how someone can boost so much without falling foul of the bio passport.

I know it's easy to beat and there are wide parameters you can fall between without going 'positive' but still there is only a certain amount you can do before you are caught.

And that is the same if you are doing tranfusions, micro-dosing, or using some new undetectable wonder-drug – your biological readings theoretically have to come out within the same 'realistic' realm whatever you are doing.

Nowadays it's not like they can go 'oh the EPO test is here so now we'll just switch to something undetectable and ride at the same 49.9% HCT' kind of thing, I mean.
 
For years the UCI has demonstrated its unwillingness to pursue biological passport cases when there's even a tiny a chance the defender might mount a proper defense or win a potential trial. I wouldn't be surprised if values that would have tripped the wire ten years ago were being ignored now. I don't think this explains everything by itself, but it might not be a coincidence that antidoping has pretty much vanished from the forefront of public discourse compared to what it was like immediately after the Armstrong debacle. I wonder if there are up-to-date statistics on the yearly number of OOC and biological passport tests in the last decade?
 
I'm done with it. I've seen this before. In fact, I've seen this before many times. We all raised our eyebrows when we saw it. We also heared the enthousiasm of the commentators back then, same as we hear today; "fantastic" "what a talent" "one of the best ever" etc. We know the (mainstream) sportspress won't dig in to this, these "miracles" sell their papers so they will cuddle up with the winner. They will keep saying that there's no proof, article after article about marginal gains, superhuman (but natural) recovery capacity, best trainingmethods etc. But we all know what it is. Not all, because some say he was already was a monster in the youth classes (which he was not, he was just a 'ok / good' cyclist). But most of us know it when we see it. Just LOOK at the guy during and after the TT, look at him. No sweat, judging from his face expression got no pain, just look at him watching to the right directly into the camera. What do you see? Someone who's not suffering, in fact, he was comfortable, relaxt, just cruising on his bike enjoying the view left and right and. After the finish look at him again, no sweat, no red face, not out of breath. Now look at the other 160 or so riders. What an absolute joke. And then there was that mountain stage in which he destroyed everybody in a way not even Lance Armstrong did. I'm done with it, we are back at 90's/00's leven of doping.

But what do they use? Hey, we have mRNA vaccins now, 20 years ago that was unthinkable. There must be something so advanced compared to the 90's/00's we cannot even imagine right now. And it's happening in plain sight, again! And we can say yeah but MVDP, WvA, REV, ALA, but they give it their all, they drop dead after the finish line and they battle it out with other great riders. Pogacar is in a league of his own and not even breaking a sweat. I will never watch a GT with him in it anymore, waiste of time.
 

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