Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[topt]

I really don't understand what you're trying to do in this thread. All these vague hints at trying to defend Pog are incredibly tedious. There's plenty of Lance related material all over the internet from years of forum wars you can easily repurpose, why not show more commitment to the bit and start by throwing some of that stuff back into the mix?

, you find my post tedious, oh man; dont you think it should be the other way around, you guys droping hints and me openly defending him unless that inocent until proven guilty doesnt really work anymore.
Also some post here are so dumb that I just have to respond in a similar way

 

[BlueRoads]

I know what you mean, yes - but it is difficult to put your "reputation" on the line defending a cyclist against doping accusation. I mean what do all those people who vigorously defended Armstrong do once he's admitted to be doping? And you can never be sure with those guys. I'm a big Roglič fan but I will never defend him against doping because - well, you just never know. I will, however, point out that the case against him has no real substance at the moment.

That being said, I understand it's frustrating to be Pogi's accuser because there is no real resistance and it's much more fun if there are 50 guys on this forum you can say "I told you so" once/if they catch him with his pants down.

Do you really think the people who think Pogacar is doping and express their opinion here do so because it's "fun" and to be able "I told you so"?
Well, maybe some do, who knows.
I certainly don't. I am going to be very happy when it turns out I'm wrong.
Can you imagine there are people who don't like cheating and are simply afraid and sad about some things they see because they cannot believe they are true?

 

[kingjr]

yes we are witnessing Armstrong 2.0, but the bigger problem is there is no David Walsh.

If I'm not mistaken, Armstrong did both climbs faster in 2003, despite there being one additional mountain on that stage, despite almost everyone being practically isolated from the start of the Tourmalet, and despite crashing.

 

[Black Betsy]

yes we are witnessing Armstrong 2.0, but the bigger problem is there is no David Walsh.

Perhaps they should invite him to attend one of their training camps and then ghostwrite Pogi's biography...

 

[Andon]

If I'm not mistaken, Armstrong did both climbs faster in 2003, despite there being one additional mountain on that stage, despite almost everyone being practically isolated from the start of the Tourmalet, and despite crashing.

We have absolutely no idea how much faster Pogacar could have gone if he would have had any competition on this Tour. He never had to show it on a mountain stage. It would be awesome if we had another guy from a different team on the same level as him and whatever he's doing, and these two would have to go actually all out and to the limit like the rest. It might be best cycling entertainment since the 90s.
I don't recall specifics from 2003, but googling seems to indicate that at the very least there was Ullrich to compete against, and maybe Vinokourov was relevant as well.

 

[Netserk]

If I'm not mistaken, Armstrong did both climbs faster in 2003, despite there being one additional mountain on that stage, despite almost everyone being practically isolated from the start of the Tourmalet, and despite crashing.

Yes, yesterday was quite lame. It's fast compared to 2011, but we have come to the point where the peak performances now are similar (or at least getting close) to the peak performances of the 00's pre-Puerto.

 

[canarydan23]

He trains hard, that's why...

Is that it? Oh, thanks very much, Pogacar trains hard, good knowledge!

 

[veganrob]

Oh man, it's almost painful to see the guy cross the finish line with mouth barely open.
You'd think everyone would at least try to suspend disbelief by telling the guy to look like he was completely spent at the finish.
Remember the days when everyone said Andy Hampsten was clean as a whistle? His winning performance at the top of Alpe d'huez back in the late 80's early 90's makes me think there is a very remote possibility he was clean when watching his post-stage win interview. Guy was coughing his guts out and could barely say a word before answering a question. He was done. You could tell the guy put everything on the table to win the stage.
Now here we have TP who looks like he just returned from the corner store to fetch some milk.
Not normal.

Really, are we still posting ridiculous crap like this. If only he would make a face then we would know he is clean.

 

[Cervelo77]

Looking forward to the TT. Does he win a 4th stage or not? Does he just pace it, knowing the GC is in the bag and TTs are not the same? Or does he just drill the mother trucker, knowing with no w/kg concerns, he can smash it?

55 km/h ITT coming up.

 

[Ripper]

of all the posts in here you find mine to be trolling

Hey, I get your a fan of the TP. It's all good! I think you've noted a couple times that you feel compelled to post on this particular thread because some of the other posts are so dumb. I do find that a little disingenuous, because the same could be said for pretty much every thread in this whole CN forum. What I think you're saying is as a fan of TP, you react to posts you think are dumb by posting your own dumb posts.

C'est la vie! If there was clear proof that TP was absolutely doping, this would not be an obscure forum discussion, as he would already be dealing with doping authorities.

 

[Ripper]

If I'm not mistaken, Armstrong did both climbs faster in 2003, despite there being one additional mountain on that stage, despite almost everyone being practically isolated from the start of the Tourmalet, and despite crashing.

I think some forget of one of the key characteristics of being super fueled with EPO and relentless blood transfusions - you could just keep on going at maximum pace. So, while we are seeing climbs ridden at extreme speeds, sometimes successive climbs, it is still different than the Pharmstrong years. That, and the race dynamics are almost always a bit different.

 

[Ripper]

Really, are we still posting ridiculous crap like this. If only he would make a face then we would know he is clean.

Two types of comments that just don't hold water are: something about a rider's facial expression giving away effort or a lack thereof (usually as proof of doping), and quoting a rider's coach like that is proof of non-doping. Regarding the former, I know I have raced against people with an excellent 'poker face' while others pull out all sorts of dramatic caricatures!

 

[the delgados]

Really, are we still posting ridiculous crap like this. If only he would make a face then we would know he is clean.

Seems I may have ruffled some feathers, veganrob. Sorry my comment made you a bit uppity.
I'm just here for some friendly banter; until posts are regarded as headline material stuff that's way off the mark and people's jobs are on the line, I politely suggest there's no need to get worked up. But hey, whatever floats yer boat, veganrob.
One thing that kinda gets my goat (not to the point of telling someone to "calm their tits" mind you) is when people try to put words into the mouths of others.
I said no such thing; in fact I was making a joke that obviously fell flat. If you've got to explain it, that means it's not funny, so I'll shut my trap.
Neither I nor you have any inside info concerning modern day doping techniques. We're just riffin' as they say. One of the ways to riff is by making comparisons. Gimme a minute, veganrob, I'm going to try to find the Hampsten interview on Youtube. Don't go anywhere, buddy! Grab some cucumbers and carrots and stuff and settle in. I'll be right back.
O.k, I've tried my best to find the post race interview where Hampsten was gasping for breath, but I cannot find it. Closest I came is determining that I am referring to stage 14 of the 1992 Tour from Sestriere to Alpe d"Huez.

 

[ppanther92]

We have absolutely no idea how much faster Pogacar could have gone if he would have had any competition on this Tour. He never had to show it on a mountain stage. It would be awesome if we had another guy from a different team on the same level as him and whatever he's doing, and these two would have to go actually all out and to the limit like the rest. It might be best cycling entertainment since the 90s.
I don't recall specifics from 2003, but googling seems to indicate that at the very least there was Ullrich to compete against, and maybe Vinokourov was relevant as well.

Think it would play out a bit like the Contador/Schleck dynamic. Those two also were so far above the rest for 3 years that they deliberately dropped back on mountains watching on each other before attacking and playing games.

 

[luckyboy]

hmm... (can't read the report from the Swiss newspaper site)

Tadej Pogacar says there is nothing illegal about his bike at Tour de France

Eddy Merckx describes Slovenian as ‘new Cannibal’

www.cyclingnews.com

And some riders in the peloton, it seems, have questions too. A report in Swiss newspaper Le Temps cited three unnamed riders who expressed concern about "strange noises" emanating from the rear wheels of the bikes of four teams, including yellow jersey Tadej Pogačar's UAE Team Emirates squad.

"There is a strange noise. I can hear it while riding. It comes from the rear wheels. A strange metallic noise, like a badly adjusted chain. I've never heard that anywhere," said one rider, according to the report,

 

[staubsauger]

Seems I may have ruffled some feathers, veganrob. Sorry my comment made you a bit uppity.
I'm just here for some friendly banter; until posts are regarded as headline material stuff that's way off the mark and people's jobs are on the line, I politely suggest there's no need to get worked up. But hey, whatever floats yer boat, veganrob.
One thing that kinda gets my goat (not to the point of telling someone to "calm their tits" mind you) is when people try to put words into the mouths of others.
I said no such thing; in fact I was making a joke that obviously fell flat. If you've got to explain it, that means it's not funny, so I'll shut my trap.
Neither I nor you have any inside info concerning modern day doping techniques. We're just riffin' as they say. One of the ways to riff is by making comparisons. Gimme a minute, veganrob, I'm going to try to find the Hampsten interview on Youtube. Don't go anywhere, buddy! Grab some cucumbers and carrots and stuff and settle in. I'll be right back.
O.k, I've tried my best to find the post race interview where Hampsten was gasping for breath, but I cannot find it. Closest I came is determining that I am referring to stage 14 of the 1992 Tour from Sestriere to Alpe d"Huez.

Are you sure you're not referring to the Tour of Switzerland he won beating Pieter Winnen by a mere second?

There was a video on YouTube some years ago and it indeed starting with saying that the 2 protagonists had to catch breath after the finish line.

 

[spalco]

hmm... (can't read the report from the Swiss newspaper site)

I absolutely, still despite everything, 100% refuse to believe mechanical doping could be a thing.

The day a leading WT rider gets caught doing that will be the last day I watch, read, discuss or think anything about pro cycling, no joke.

 

[Rackham]

hmm... (can't read the report from the Swiss newspaper site)

Tadej Pogacar says there is nothing illegal about his bike at Tour de France

Eddy Merckx describes Slovenian as ‘new Cannibal’

www.cyclingnews.com

And some riders in the peloton, it seems, have questions too. A report in Swiss newspaper Le Temps cited three unnamed riders who expressed concern about "strange noises" emanating from the rear wheels of the bikes of four teams, including yellow jersey Tadej Pogačar's UAE Team Emirates squad.

"There is a strange noise. I can hear it while riding. It comes from the rear wheels. A strange metallic noise, like a badly adjusted chain. I've never heard that anywhere," said one rider, according to the report,

I think these "anonymous riders" (whether they even exist or not) who're insinuating mechanized doping among those teams are complete morons.

What exactly do they hope to achieve? Bike checks already return negative. All this does is help create a climate of suspicion around the peloton & cycling in general, at a time when the sport cannot exactly afford huge scandals (I mean literally, a sponsorship exodus resulting from such a huge scandal right now could be a nail in the coffin).

It's one thing for someone like Antoine Vayer to behave like a clown (he's got a patent on that) & spread xyz wild theories whenever, but riders within the peloton should be more careful if they actually value their own careers. That's even if they exist of course, i.e. it's pretty much the easiest thing in the world to make up imaginary sources.

 

[the delgados]

Are you sure you're not referring to the Tour of Switzerland he won beating Pieter Winnen by a mere second?

There was a video on YouTube some years ago and it indeed starting with saying that the 2 protagonists had to catch breath after the finish line.

One hundred percent certain, staubsauger. I remember watching the stage live on tv and hearing things that commentators were saying like Hampsten was so obsessed with weight loss advantages that he removed the front derailleur to make his bike as light as possible.
I'm not making this up.
I also remember Hampsten being interviewed shortly after his win on Alpe d'Huez and he was literally gasping for breath. Guy was coughing like he was in advanced stages of Covid.
These are things that stick in the mind of a young one who is new to the sport and is fascinated by what I'm seeing.
Now I'm even more determined to find the interview. I'm not sure, but I think CBS was the American service provider for North American audiences.

 

[Cagalitroso]

I absolutely, still despite everything, 100% refuse to believe mechanical doping could be a thing.

The day a leading WT rider gets caught doing that will be the last day I watch, read, discuss or think anything about pro cycling, no joke.

Why? Hear me out (for TLDR read the las paragraph). That is the thing with this doping issue in cycling.

This is my position which I think it is shared totally or partially for many of the posters at THE CLINIC (I reserve my opinion for the whole forum).

- Most (95%) , if not all, of the cyclists in WT teams are in some kind of medical doping program. If you have studied game theory even at elementary level you will realize that this is the inevitable result of having an initial minority who is not being punished. If 5% of the cyclists dope and thanks to that win races, contracts, sponsorships,starting places and dont get punished, I would be insane not to do it too, and if I dont do it, 10 other people will do it and replace me, so bye bye my professional career. Things can get a little quite after a big scandal, but the tide rises again progressively and we are now in a full moon night.

- If everybody is doping why only a few top cyclists always win? Different starting "clean slates", different response to the programs, different quality of the programs, different tolerance to take risks by the team/athlete.

-If everybody is doping what is the big deal then? Well the first and obvious point is that all this "help" is pretty dangerous to the cyclists, especially if an "arms-race" takes place. But there are many other reasons too, the more the peloton dopes, the more any classic strategy become useless, if you cannot drop a rider no matter what you do, what is the point? Without doping even the most exceptional athlete cannot cover every attack, can have a bad day, may need to pick a balance between strength and climbing capacity and so on. With good doping all this is gone, and you get sprinters climbing like goats. But even more insidiously and finally touching your point, if medical doping is allowed , why cannot the athletes blur the lines between mechanical doping and good equipment technology? Smaller motors and batteries make that very possible if not now in the close future, and it can be done without any punishment it will be done. Maybe the natural evolution of cycling will be motocross.

 

[saganftw]

maybe im naive but if i was engineering any kind of mechanical doping, first i would make sure IT MAKES NO F***ING NOISE, whole point of it is that you cannot detect it, visualy or any other kind of way

like how dumb am i supposed to believe these people are? they install it and then are like "yep, jobs done", then pogacar is sitting on his bike like "some strange noise...ahhhh probably nothing"

of all the conspiracies, this one is pretty garbage

 

[BlueRoads]

I absolutely, still despite everything, 100% refuse to believe mechanical doping could be a thing.

The day a leading WT rider gets caught doing that will be the last day I watch, read, discuss or think anything about pro cycling, no joke.

I think these "anonymous riders" (whether they even exist or not) who're insinuating mechanized doping among those teams are complete morons.

What exactly do they hope to achieve? Bike checks already return negative. All this does is help create a climate of suspicion around the peloton & cycling in general, at a time when the sport cannot exactly afford huge scandals (I mean literally, a sponsorship exodus resulting from such a huge scandal right now could be a nail in the coffin).

It's one thing for someone like Antoine Vayer to behave like a clown (he's got a patent on that) & spread xyz wild theories whenever, but riders within the peloton should be more careful if they actually value their own careers. That's even if they exist of course, i.e. it's pretty much the easiest thing in the world to make up imaginary sources.

Agree as much as possible.

Those claims are ridiculous. If there is one thing you can actually test 100% it's motor doping.

There are so many things you cannot get caught with, to repeat myself even the simple, obviously not high-class doping of Aderlass didn't get detected through tests but through a witness, that to use, during a race, a method which, if if you get caught, proves 100% you're guilty, no margin to play with at all, would be the so incredibly stupid.

Then to make it more ridiculous: "it makes a noise" - the riders can hear it, but the testers are not able to.

This doesn't help at all. It draws attention from the things that are seriously wrong and makes anti-doping look like a circus.

I think these claims are made-up. If not, the riders in question should be taken out of the peloton, such stupidity seems very dangerous at such speeds.

 

[Cookster15]

Motor doping is just a diversion tactic. Pea and thimble tricks. Keep our eyes on the ball - it isn't mechanical doping.

Anti doping has stagnated. It was doing best in 2011. But the arms race goes on. Cycling reminds me of Formula One. The sport organizers introduce rules to slow the competitors but the teams and their doctors work out how to circumvent the controls. The passport is simply too slow and too difficult to argue an adverse finding in court. In 2011 they played it safe. Not any more the doctors and teams know what they can get away with. Giannetti seems to have perfected it with a talented athlete like Pogacar.

Pogacar leads Vingegaard by 5'45". No need to soft pedal and there is plenty of headroom to go ballistic. Nibali won in 2014 with a margin of nearly 8 minutes. Will be fun to watch particularly after the raids on Bahrain and Mohoric's salute getting cycling back in the headlines for the wrong reasons.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Apparently some strange sounds have been heard from the rear wheel of Pogi's bike.

Tadej Pogacar says there is nothing illegal about his bike at Tour de France

Eddy Merckx describes Slovenian as ‘new Cannibal’

www.cyclingnews.com

Additional 1 w/kg (of electrical descent) is not so marginal gain to boost Pogi's recovery powers. Or maybe he just ate too much of pea soup

 

[bNator]

Do you really think the people who think Pogacar is doping and express their opinion here do so because it's "fun" and to be able "I told you so"?
Well, maybe some do, who knows.
I certainly don't. I am going to be very happy when it turns out I'm wrong.
Can you imagine there are people who don't like cheating and are simply afraid and sad about some things they see because they cannot believe they are true?

I believe ste statute of doping suspicion is often abused to serve an agenda, which is usually to bash the competition of the suspicions fan’s favourite rider. Bernal fans will be suspicious of Pogacar and vice versa.

Of course, many people are also honestly concerned and I have no reason to believe you are not one of them...