Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[therealthing]

Not even funny anymore.

 

[MartinGT]

If Froome had done this, the clinic would be broken forever.

 

[Unterlenkerfahrend]

Legend. I take every mutant I can get to dunk on those Jumbobots.

 

[F_Cance]

was a really great race until this nuclear mutant stuff happened. Now it looks like a joke

 

[Mayomaniac]

Am I watching a cycling race or playing a game of 40k?
Because all I see is aliens, mutants and heretics...

 

[MartinGT]

I love how they talk about comparisons with Eddy as if he was a choir boy

 

[noob]

I need a pillow and a soft warm cover to recharge from this. And both the kitty and at least one stuffed animal

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Come on guys. As I said, it was supercompensation after Nice sunbathing. And maybe a bit of orange juice.

 

[Red Rick]

Trentin suddenly flying just adds to the hilarity

 

[Rackham]

It was amazing. I also think Van der Poel looked really really strong, like stronger than last year even (& is it just me or did he look gutted at the end? It was an insane chase throughout the last 50km & I think he might have reckoned he was the strongest at one point).

I also think this year is going to be crazy entertaining (it already has been). That's until someone gets popped of course at which point we'll all (as avid superfans of the sport) pretend we're shocked & had no idea what was going on.

 

[Peyroteo94]

Can't wait for another nuclear bomb in La Redoute

 

[Netserk]

did [MvdP] look gutted at the end?

When they interviewed him after the finish, he seemed almost bitter.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Idunno, I find it kind of weird, that one of the big things about the professionalisation of women's cycling has been the need to widen the cast of characters by seeing increased specialisation, but on the men's side which has long since seen that happen - and the parcours trends break these down further to favour specialists in particular styles over all-rounders, and yet right now we have a whole host of riders who are breaking down all the boundaries of specialisation, a whole generation of ATVs, and while the guys at the level of, say, Matteo Jorgensen who are capable of doing everything well but not quite at the level of the very best have always been there, oftentimes when a rider wanted to branch out like this they would have to sacrifice another side of their riding, and change the type of rider that they are - just view Sagan bulking up in pursuit of Roubaix, Thomas completely changing his frame and style to become a stage racer, or the failed attempts to convert the likes of Stijn Devolder and George Hincapie into GT competitors. Guys like van Aert and Pogačar are achieving like they're Anna van der Breggen, but in a branch of the sport with decades more specialisation and infrastructure to unpick in order to do it. It's like, Nibali and Valverde would have a go at de Ronde just to do it but without expectation of success, their overall class and aerobic capacity would carry them to a good position but then the specialists in this particular type of cycling would take over and leave them behind. But Pogačar is instantly a frontline contender in a type of riding that received wisdom should suggest he shouldn't compete in.

In women's cycling, climbers have typically been more competitive at de Ronde than has been the case in men's cycling, but then the calendar has for a long time lacked in long climbs and been heavily favourable for puncheuses, so the shorter lengths of their races mean the climbs are a larger part of them, and riders who in the men's péloton would almost certainly not be riders who would target the Ronde - the likes of Niewiadoma or Moolman-Pasio - have good histories there. This has frequently been used as an argument toward the lack of development in women's cycling, because it harks back to men's cycling back in, like, the 70s, before the vast improvements in the depth of the péloton made extensive specialisation more achievable and being competitive across all terrains at all times like a Merckx or an Hinault almost impossible, a received wisdom that Pogačar is completely smashing to all parts and in all ways.

 

[zlev11]

If Froome had done this, the clinic would be broken forever.

yeah because Tadej has more talent in his right foot than Froome

 

[hfer07]

Taking the dope factor aside, Pogacar has proved to be more than just the result of a breakthrough systematic doping regime, because there are skills, talent & grint that a rider must possess to be such dominant force in all terrains & type of races - and how close they are to one another......

 

[Red Rick]

Idunno, I find it kind of weird, that one of the big things about the professionalisation of women's cycling has been the need to widen the cast of characters by seeing increased specialisation, but on the men's side which has long since seen that happen - and the parcours trends break these down further to favour specialists in particular styles over all-rounders, and yet right now we have a whole host of riders who are breaking down all the boundaries of specialisation, a whole generation of ATVs, and while the guys at the level of, say, Matteo Jorgensen who are capable of doing everything well but not quite at the level of the very best have always been there, oftentimes when a rider wanted to branch out like this they would have to sacrifice another side of their riding, and change the type of rider that they are - just view Sagan bulking up in pursuit of Roubaix, Thomas completely changing his frame and style to become a stage racer, or the failed attempts to convert the likes of Stijn Devolder and George Hincapie into GT competitors. Guys like van Aert and Pogačar are achieving like they're Anna van der Breggen, but in a branch of the sport with decades more specialisation and infrastructure to unpick in order to do it. It's like, Nibali and Valverde would have a go at de Ronde just to do it but without expectation of success, their overall class and aerobic capacity would carry them to a good position but then the specialists in this particular type of cycling would take over and leave them behind. But Pogačar is instantly a frontline contender in a type of riding that received wisdom should suggest he shouldn't compete in.

In women's cycling, climbers have typically been more competitive at de Ronde than has been the case in men's cycling, but then the calendar has for a long time lacked in long climbs and been heavily favourable for puncheuses, so the shorter lengths of their races mean the climbs are a larger part of them, and riders who in the men's péloton would almost certainly not be riders who would target the Ronde - the likes of Niewiadoma or Moolman-Pasio - have good histories there. This has frequently been used as an argument toward the lack of development in women's cycling, because it harks back to men's cycling back in, like, the 70s, before the vast improvements in the depth of the péloton made extensive specialisation more achievable and being competitive across all terrains at all times like a Merckx or an Hinault almost impossible, a received wisdom that Pogačar is completely smashing to all parts and in all ways.

For de Ronde and cobbles in general I definitely think there's a non doping component in that better bikes, and maybe stuff like bigger wheels simply make the effect of cobbles on their own less, which used to disproportionately affect lighter riders. I also think better bikes makes drafting have a bigger effect, to the point where the effect that smaller riders draft more behind a bigger rider may be coming into some significance. De Ronde absolutely trends more to a climber friendly race than it ever has before.

At the physiological level, it just doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Mabye I don't know enough specifically about rider specialisation in say the 90s and early 2000s, ut at the very least it seems almost like anaerobic and aerobic capacity barely come at the cost of each other anymore, and body type perhaps being the only thing that really limits a rider, with MvdP and Van Aert simply being too big to be real top climbers.

 

[Mayomaniac]

For de Ronde and cobbles in general I definitely think there's a non doping component in that better bikes, and maybe stuff like bigger wheels simply make the effect of cobbles on their own less, which used to disproportionately affect lighter riders. I also think better bikes makes drafting have a bigger effect, to the point where the effect that smaller riders draft more behind a bigger rider may be coming into some significance. De Ronde absolutely trends more to a climber friendly race than it ever has before.

At the physiological level, it just doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Mabye I don't know enough specifically about rider specialisation in say the 90s and early 2000s, ut at the very least it seems almost like anaerobic and aerobic capacity barely come at the cost of each other anymore, and body type perhaps being the only thing that really limits a rider, with MvdP and Van Aert simply being too big to be real top climbers.

Yeah, after decades of specialization the guys are suddenly great at everything, with no drawbacks. Just makes no sense and is IMO the biggest red flag for the current state of the sport as a whole (besides the always rising climbing times).

 

[Red Rick]

Yeah, after decades of specialization the guys are suddenly great at everything, with no drawbacks. Just makes no sense and is IMO the biggest red flag for the current state of the sport as a whole (besides the always rising climbing times).

The only counterargument is possibly there was just a lack of absolute elite talent so we just assumed it wasn't possible anymore, but it really doesn't make a lot of sense.

That said, I think the no drawbacks part is much more true for Pogacar alone than anyone else.

Van Aert isn't a world class climber, and still struggles in RVV which is supposed to be his wheelhouse
Van der Poel is basically still a specialist like the ones of old, just at 2023 level. He isn't a top level TTer, sprinter and he's an average climber
Roglic clearly has weaknesses in terms of endurance and fatigue resistance, even his 3 minute fresh watts bazooka is probably better than Pog.
Evenepoel is no 2 minute watt/kg expert, and still has some to prove in multi mountain stages IMO.

Maybe there's a few factors that make it seem worse than it is.

Maybe Pog is more suited to RVV as a rider type than we've previously thought, and it's more a pure hill rep race despite the flat stretches which are paced under 100%. Maybe Pog is overrated as a pure climber (which sounds ridiculous as in the last 2 years only Vingegaard has beaten him)

Maybe there's been compounding effects specifically today, with cold weather, tailwind on Kwaremont, and how hard the race was and how early they had a 3 man chase with all 3 contributing. And if Pog systematically has 2% left in the tank on the hills that just compounds over time

If I really grasp I might think Pogacar just loves his seated climbs and every time Van Aert really crushes a 2 minute hill in the Tour it's all standing on pedals but that don't explain taking MvdP behind the woodshed.

 

[zlev11]

yeah I don't think Pogacar being this good at RVV is really that shocking. I think a lot of GC riders, especially ones that can TT, would be in the front group if they actually targeted the race like he did. just look at how above average climbers like Powless and Jorgenson have done this season. both are very smart riders who are evidently good at positioning themselves which is also a huge part of it.

do I think he's clean? hell no. but it wasn't a mutant ride. didn't Bettiol do basically the same thing in 2019? granted he wasn't riding away from peak Van der Poel, but still.

 

[topt]

was a really great race until this nuclear mutant stuff happened. Now it looks like a joke

to translate;my rider got droped so he is doping

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Maybe Pog is more suited to RVV as a rider type than we've previously thought, and it's more a pure hill rep race despite the flat stretches which are paced under 100%. Maybe Pog is overrated as a pure climber (which sounds ridiculous as in the last 2 years only Vingegaard has beaten him)

Maybe there's been compounding effects specifically today, with cold weather, tailwind on Kwaremont, and how hard the race was and how early they had a 3 man chase with all 3 contributing. And if Pog systematically has 2% left in the tank on the hills that just compounds over time

If I really grasp I might think Pogacar just loves his seated climbs and every time Van Aert really crushes a 2 minute hill in the Tour it's all standing on pedals but that don't explain taking MvdP behind the woodshed.

Yes, the fact that Pog is a superb and punchy climber who has great endurance and likes cold weather makes Flandres good for him. The cobbles here aren't that bad either so a guy like Pog (great climber but not skinny at all, he has enough power/mass) is comfortable there. I almost think that he's more dominant on those hills than in any other hilly race. This is also because he has no climbers as rivals here . That being said MVP is a monster in such efforts so Pog winning mano a mano against him is incredible indeed. It took a superb level to do it and Pog's form was unreal yesterday (keep in mind that he fired his first bazooka 55 km from the like already and after a hard race had the power to fire another one).

 

[Extinction]

Yes, the fact that Pog is a superb and punchy climber who has great endurance and likes cold weather makes Flandres good for him. The cobbles here aren't that bad either so a guy like Pog (great climber but not skinny at all, he has enough power/mass) is comfortable there. I almost think that he's more dominant on those hills than in any other hilly race. This is also because he has no climbers as rivals here . That being said MVP is a monster in such efforts so Pog winning mano a mano against him is incredible indeed. It took a superb level to do it and Pog's form was unreal yesterday (keep in mind that he fired his first bazooka 55 km from the like already and after a hard race had the power to fire another one).

Consider too that the overall race was hard enough for him, unlike MSR, to drop MVDP in the end, which demonstrates, when the pace is really high throughout, the GT champion's engine trumps that of a one-day specialist.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Consider too that the overall race was hard enough for him, unlike MSR, to drop MVDP in the end, which demonstrates, when the pace is really high throughout, the GT champion's engine trumps that of a one-day specialist.

It depends on the route as well. Make no mistake MVP and WVA have big engines (actually bigger than TdF winners) and are monsters in repeated high-wattage efforts. The more hills (that are ridden hard) the more it favours guys with big engine to mass ratios though (like Pog). That's why Roubaix favours massive/powerful guys (no hills and a lot of power needed to overcome cobbles) and that's why at a race like MSR (less climbs) MVP is able to produce a power output that kills even Pogacar.

 

[Extinction]

It depends on the route as well. Make no mistake MVP and WVA have big engines (actually bigger than TdF winners) and are monsters in repeated high-wattage efforts. The more hills (that are ridden hard) the more it favours guys with big engine to mass ratios though (like Pog). That's why Roubaix favours massive/powerful guys (no hills and a lot of power needed to overcome cobbles) and that's why at a race like MSR (less climbs) MVP is able to produce a power output that kills even Pogacar.

I disagree with the bolded statement entirely. They have big engines, but not nearly as big as a TdF winner; or else they could win the Grand Bouclé, which is clearly beyond them on any probable route.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

I disagree with the bolded statement entirely. They have big engines, but not nearly as big as a TdF winner; or else they could win the Grand Bouclé, which is clearly beyond them on any probable route.

By big engine I obviously mean absolute values of VO2max and power output. TdF winners have bigger engines in relative values (per unit of mass).