Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[Mayomaniac]

Trentin suddenly flying just adds to the hilarity

I mean, he was in the front group, otherwise he wouldn't have finished inside the top 10. Maybe I'm biased because I like him, but I didn't see a sudden improvement. This year he was top 20ish in the other classics and last year he finished top 10 in Omloop and KBK, before winning Les Samy. He's also one of the few guys who didn't really get worse after leaving Quickstep, overall his performances are rather consistent.

 

[Extinction]

By big engine I obviously mean absolute values of VO2max and power output. TdF winners have bigger engines in relative values (per unit of mass).

Sure, and that's why I wrote, the harder the day, when the going gets tough, that's when Pog's engine should really shine over theirs.

 

[Red Rick]

Yes, the fact that Pog is a superb and punchy climber who has great endurance and likes cold weather makes Flandres good for him. The cobbles here aren't that bad either so a guy like Pog (great climber but not skinny at all, he has enough power/mass) is comfortable there. I almost think that he's more dominant on those hills than in any other hilly race. This is also because he has no climbers as rivals here . That being said MVP is a monster in such efforts so Pog winning mano a mano against him is incredible indeed. It took a superb level to do it and Pog's form was unreal yesterday (keep in mind that he fired his first bazooka 55 km from the like already and after a hard race had the power to fire another one).

Yeah I guess the ideal RVV riders is quite a bit lighter than those of other Belgian cobbled races simply due to the volume of hills.

Nibali did RVV once in okay form and initiated the winning move.
Valverde did it once and got top 10.
Alaphilippe was off with WvA and MvdP the one time he showed up in top shape.
Now Pog is flying away from everyone.

The endurance, technicality and nervousness, and flats are still important, and the flat finish basically selects out a lot of the more durable climbier types. It's not like I'd say "RvV is a 3 minute climbing race now, Roglic should race". But I also think MvdP and Van Aert may actually be a little bigger than ideal for RvV.

Ultimately I think Pog tolerates the hills better because he's almost as good on a one hill watts bazooka but he has the much higher W/kg threshold so it's far less over his limit to do it 20 times.

Pogacar hits every sweetspot, and still I think if he tried this 10 years in a row he wouldn't win that often.

 

[Netserk]

Yet Teuns, Alaphilippe, Kwiatkowski, Benoot are clearly worse on hills that are cobbled. Kwaremont hurts them badly.

 

[SafeBet]

Yet Teuns, Alaphilippe, Kwiatkowski, Benoot are clearly worse on hills that are cobbled. Kwaremont hurts them badly.

Pidcock too.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Ultimately I think Pog tolerates the hills better because he's almost as good on a one hill watts bazooka but he has the much higher W/kg threshold so it's far less over his limit to do it 20 times.

Pogacar hits every sweetspot, and still I think if he tried this 10 years in a row he wouldn't win that often.

Initially he seemed to be the ultimate GT rider but now he looks to be the ultimate...Flandres rider! I would give him 3-4 victories in 10 tries. Then again, I don't know if he will do more than 5 RVVs as there are other goals to pursue as well.

 

[Nick2413]

I think the space occupied by classics specialists in the Venn diagram of skills required to win these type of races is shrinking relative to GT specialists and climbers. Those riders are increasingly better at everything while it doesn’t necessarily work in reverse.

 

[Red Rick]

Yet Teuns, Alaphilippe, Kwiatkowski, Benoot are clearly worse on hills that are cobbled. Kwaremont hurts them badly.

Pogacar seated power merchant.

 

[Nick2413]

Pogacar seated power merchant.

He’s the type of dude that probably doesn’t even get out of the saddle after a stoplight.

 

[Red Rick]

I missed the part where this was the "Tadej Pogacar, Mauro Gianetti, and their relation to Gitmo" thread but here we are.

Please ffs drop the politics talk

 

[Netserk]

Pogacar seated power merchant.

The secret of a miner.

 

[proffate]

For de Ronde and cobbles in general I definitely think there's a non doping component in that better bikes, and maybe stuff like bigger wheels simply make the effect of cobbles on their own less, which used to disproportionately affect lighter riders. I also think better bikes makes drafting have a bigger effect, to the point where the effect that smaller riders draft more behind a bigger rider may be coming into some significance. De Ronde absolutely trends more to a climber friendly race than it ever has before.

The tire tech most definitely takes some skill out of the cobbles.

 

[masking_agent]

are there any reporter(s) who are asking the probing questions , like David Walsh did during the Lance era to Mauro and boy wonder from Slovenia ?

 

[Extinction]

are there any reporter(s) who are asking the probing questions , like David Walsh did during the Lance era to Mauro and boy wonder from Slovenia ?

No

 

[Nick2413]

No

I’m sure there are plenty who would love to, but it’s hard to ask questions when it’s de facto forbidden.

 

[masking_agent]

I’m sure there are plenty who would love to, but it’s hard to ask questions when it’s de facto forbidden.

why would it be forbidden ? It wasn't for David Walsh ?

 

[Nick2413]

why would it be forbidden ? It wasn't for David Walsh ?

I think the fact that all of us have questions but seemingly nobody in those positions asks them is evidence that it doesn’t bode well for those who do. Maybe one or two who are willing to risk their career come along every decade or so.

 

[Extinction]

why would it be forbidden ? It wasn't for David Walsh ?

Times have changed, Armstrong won Worlds at 21, then, after cancer, had the UCI on his side. By contrast, Tadei won the Tour at the same age, a "natural", by all accounts. So who rocks the boat? He is thus a phenom, no?

 

[Zoetemelk-fan]

Just bumped in here, 110 pages late.
Was searching for new Oude Kwaremont Strava record, but realized Pogi as one of very few in the WT peleton do not share his data on Strava.
Anyone with exact time for Pogis fastest RVV'23 climb of the exact cobbled section from Strava Start line to Strava finish line at Schilderstraat entering Ronse Baan left turn?

It opens for a range of question filled with suspicion about Pogi not being at Strava.
Think first time i encountered his very light pedaling was during2nd half of Vuelta 2019 version, so light my mind was led to new kind of motordoping (in fact only few watts do the big difference on the peak, misunderstood by many, many ways to introduce illegal induction). Then years passed and I lived with it, just thinking of a young guy of my local cycling club with almost identical flawless 'light' pedalling.

But watching Pogi especially over Oude Kwaremont in RvV'23, flawless ontop of the pedals light pedalling all three times, and at such brutal force - and having climbed it myself, knowing how these cobbles especially on this Hellingen just breaks your rythm constantly, my suspisions returned.
And just grew harder realizing this guy either do not have a Strava profile or doesn't share his Strava data...

Edit: Sorry. Indeed Pogi is at Strava.
Just forgot about Strava's new privacy policies near a year ago apparently forced public view off so you in fact have to take action on that part. Of which I think the majority even don't think about.
Edit 2: Pogi Oude Kwaremont KOM for the 2,05Km Strava-section (physically marked at location) is 3:47m. Outing Asgreens RvV'22 3:59 (by then Asgreen in Pogis wheel, so Pogi presumably a '22 fastest time of 3:57-58 or so).
Bearing in mind that a full pull on Oude Kwaremont for RvV'23 was the most important part of the strategy to isolate his competitors with better sprinting capabilities, maybe this new KOM in fact seems reasonable.
Though, still his flawless riding style over even most challenging sections feeds me with 2nd thoughts...

Edit 3: And sorry for being maybe a bit off-topic, since I have nothing to add about Mauro - apart from my suspicion grew on him right from his LBL-AGR double in mid 90ies.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Edit: Sorry. Indeed Pogi is at Strava.
Just forgot about Strava's new privacy policies near a year ago apparently forced public view off so you in fact have to take action on that part. Of which I think the majority even don't think about.
Edit 2: Pogi Oude Kwaremont KOM for the 2,05Km Strava-section (physically marked at location) is 3:47m. Outing Asgreens RvV'22 3:59 (by then Asgreen in Pogis wheel, so Pogi presumably a '22 fastest time of 3:57-58 or so).

3:47 m would be an amazing time but the way he dropped MVP by 14 seconds (and the rest by 30 seconds) indicates it's realistic. Oude Kwaremont should be called Pogacar's hill, considering how dominant he's on such a short climb.

 

[Zoetemelk-fan]

3:47 m would be an amazing time but the way he dropped MVP by 14 seconds (and the rest by 30 seconds) indicates it's realistic. Oude Kwaremont should be called Pogacar's hill, considering how dominant he's on such a short climb.

Or rather: on such a long cobble climb - longest cobble climb in RvV and where he really can benefit from his GT climbing skills and weight, makes it look reasonable. At least on the distance.

But still, myself having climbed Oude Kwaremont several times, his flawless style over even the most severe cobble sections tricks me. As a sparetime cyclist myself, addicted to short, steep powerclimbs, to me Oude Kwaremont is piece-of-cake ridden at 50%. But when trying a full pull, THAT's where the troubles begins and you REALLY feel the severe cobble sections here, constantly breaking your rythm!

These struggles are very easily identified for every other rider than Pogačar. Just look at this year's Pedersen's and van der Poel's struggles over the difficult sections at Oude Kwaremont. Or previous years riders and later winners.

And then switch back to Pogaĉar's style at same points at Oude Kwaremont. Two completely different worlds. So effortless.

Or should I add "seemingly" to the justice of Tadej?
As I observe, suspicions are mainly related to his DS, and this why this thread title, right?

 

[Ripper]

The performance in Flanders was ridiculous and alien. There is not much more to say.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Or rather: on such a long cobble climb - longest cobble climb in RvV and where he really can benefit from his GT climbing skills and weight, makes it look reasonable. At least on the distance.

But still, myself having climbed Oude Kwaremont several times, his flawless style over even the most severe cobble sections tricks me. As a sparetime cyclist myself, addicted to short, steep powerclimbs, to me Oude Kwaremont is piece-of-cake ridden at 50%. But when trying a full pull, THAT's where the troubles begins and you REALLY feel the severe cobble sections here, constantly breaking your rythm!

These struggles are very easily identified for every other rider than Pogačar. Just look at this year's Pedersen's and van der Poel's struggles over the difficult sections at Oude Kwaremont. Or previous years riders and later winners.

And then switch back to Pogaĉar's style at same points at Oude Kwaremont. Two completely different worlds. So effortless.

Or should I add "seemingly" to the justice of Tadej?
As I observe, suspicions are mainly related to his DS, and this why this thread title, right?

15 seconds over an in-form MVP (who would crush the rest in this race if not for the Slovenian) and 30 seconds over best of the rest is a lot on a 220 seconds climb. Just count percentage. I agree that Teddy looks like he flies over the cobbles, the effort is so smooth. Let's just say that Gianetti hasn't been the cleanest guy on and off the bike, that's for sure But Teddy is clean like a toddler after a bath*, right?




*mud bath is an option as well

 

[Nick2413]

15 seconds over an in-form MVP (who would crush the rest in this race if not for the Slovenian) and 30 seconds over best of the rest is a lot on a 220 seconds climb. Just count percentage. I agree that Teddy looks like he flies over the cobbles, the effort is so smooth. Let's just say that Gianetti hasn't been the cleanest guy on and off the bike, that's for sure But Teddy is clean like a toddler after a bath*, right?




*mud bath is an option as well

The real question is why aren’t the other aliens as alien as him knowing they are all extraterrestrials

 

[Ripper]

15 seconds over an in-form MVP (who would crush the rest in this race if not for the Slovenian) and 30 seconds over best of the rest is a lot on a 220 seconds climb. Just count percentage. I agree that Teddy looks like he flies over the cobbles, the effort is so smooth. Let's just say that Gianetti hasn't been the cleanest guy on and off the bike, that's for sure But Teddy is clean like a toddler after a bath*, right?




*mud bath is an option as well

Clean like a baby's butt that's been in a diaper for 24 hours?