Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[Extinction]

Moser and Conconi/Ferrari used blood transfusions in 84, which weren't illegal at the time. I assume he used EPO for his 1994 attempt though.

Yes, this is what's generally assumed. At the time Conconi was financed by CONI to carry out his research on Olympic endurance athletes with EPO, the first generation. Strangely enough (wink, wink), CONI was also responsible, as it still is, for Italian anti-doping (see Valverde)

 

[ivanic]

I agree that it's certainly not specific to UAE and I'd say that Jumbo and Sky before them were indeed much more PR conscious in trying to force a certain narrative upon the public. To some extent the other teams have to hail Pogs brilliance or at worst ignore it because they are all inter linked and are eating from the same pie.

Jumbo for instance aren't going to complain publicly about Pogacars performances when they have produced the only rider who could live with him in the last 4 seasons. If he was dirty then what would that say about Vingegaard. The only response will be to try and figure out a new and better way of competing with him.

Even the riders much lower down the food chain benefit from the money that UAE and Pogacar help to generate. Those with the strongest principles will simply exit the sport.

Thibaut Pinot.



Tell me what else has to happen, all the human walls and the years of doping have been torn down by this guy. We continue to see absurd things and what happens?

We discuss and in two days everything is forgotten and we continue as if nothing had happened, now it's wrestling.

I think this forum is also read by professional cyclists, write here, write to some newspaper, write to Vayer, do something and reveal the substances.
Do you have dignity or are you only interested in 15k-30k a month?

 

[Nick2413]

If you want one, become one I'd say there seems to be some around already.
And if you want something it's better to try to do it yourself

You can take the credit for when Nick2413 from Cyclingnews ends up being the one to blow the lid off this whole thing

But actually… someone needs to step up

 

[Extinction]

Ok, I checked the WADA anti-doping Code (very briefly).
The definition of "doping" in there is "violation of anti-doping rules".
Then the rules are defined.
Basically, there is a list of prohibited stuff, which also includes the problematic "what is not addressed with this list is prohibited".
The document itself is sufficiently complicated (also with exceptions) so that contadictory conditions can happen (as with for example therapeutic exemptions), the wording of prohibiting anything not approved by governing bodies for therapeutic use (jurisdictional issues), and of course a large (and growing) potential for unknowingly violating the rules by using products in general use.
The "all methods not approved" is also wery weak; what is a novel method, a variation of established method, an approved method used with different parameters, combinations, etc.
I'm sure (as is the case in the field of patent law, for example) there is sufficient maneouvering space to achieve what you want with enough resources (and lawyers), while at the same time inadvertendly banning people for eating something from a supermarket.
Anyway, I stand by the general questions: how to innovate and adhere to ever more complicated rules? Do the materials used on the skin, on the bycicle, in the helmets etc. pass the above rules? What is the point of preventing athletes from using stuff other people can (and do) use everyday? What is "level playing field" and the "spirit of sport"?

You should become a lawyer and then a politician, forget engineering.

 

[Raest]

I can understand the reluctance among cycling journalists to rock the boat as these days most (if not almost all) of their revenue comes from ads. Most of those ads are placed by cycling sponsors. They'll be writing themselves out of a job.
Someone like Walsh who writes for Times, can afford to do it perhaps but on one hand there might not be the interest among his readership for him to go on another crusade, he might not want to go on another crusade and he didn't do his credibility any good when he cosied up to Team Sky.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

Yes, this is what's generally assumed. At the time Conconi was financed by CONI to carry out his research on Olympic endurance athletes with EPO, the first generation. Strangely enough (wink, wink), CONI was also responsible, as it still is, for Italian anti-doping (see Valverde)

It was just because it sounded like you've gotten the timeline mixed up a bit.

 

[E_F_]

Yeah this is my actual syllogism, no joke:

We do not know whether or not they are doping.
If we de not know whether or not they are doping, then they are doping.
They are doping.

While I do actually as a rule suspect that there is probably doping going on in most sports most of the time this was in fact a joke - and suggesting that this is the reasoning behind our conviction that the Pogster et al. are megacheating is both disingenuous and insulting.

 

[Extinction]

This requires investigative journalism which requires lots of resources and time spent chasing down the most problematic of leads. Sometimes, I think people live in a fantasy world and have no idea how the real world operates. Even if by chance you got a whistleblower this is still a long process and you may not not obtain eneough evidence to prove there is doping using prohibited substances.

Mainstream journalism and the news have become mere entertainment, wholesale products of the corporate hegemon. Look at the capital portfolios of those who own the media outlets, think of Murdock and the late Berlusconi, which have penetrated into industries, including sport, upon which huge revenues are gained. There is thus a built-in conflict of interests to maintain the status quo, not rock the boat too much, as it's bad for business. Panem et circensis, oh yea baby!

 

[Extinction]

It was just because it sounded like you've gotten the timeline mixed up a bit.

No, it is you who have gotten the timeline mixed up: Moser did the Mexico City hour record in 84.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

No, it is you who have gotten the timeline mixed up: Moser did the Mexico City hour record in 84.

I was referring to the comment about them using EPO in 1984, which I have never heard before.
As far as I know, synthetic EPO hadn't been introduced to the market yet by that time, and Conconi's known "research" on its effects didn't take place until the early 90s. I therefore assumed you had made a mistake, unintentionally, of course.

 

[Extinction]

I was referring to the comment about them using EPO in 1984, which I have never heard before.
As far as I know, synthetic EPO hadn't been introduced to the market yet by that time, and Conconi's known "research" on its effects didn't take place until the early 90s. I therefore assumed you had made a mistake, unintentionally, of course.

No, it pre-dates that going back to the 84 Olympics and Moser's hour record. The relative investagative journalism is in Italian. Here is something, but with further research other, more specific, articles can be found.

IL CONI PAGAVA LA FABBRICA DEL DOPING? - Marco Gregoretti

Una "fabbrica" di super-atleti. Giovani promesse, ma anche sportivi in gara alle olimpiadi, "truccati" con sostanze mediche off-limits per lo sport. DOPING.

www.marcogregoretti.it

Francesco Conconi: ho fatto il Test

sportspoetssociety.blogspot.com

 

[Samu Cuenca]

No, it pre-dates that going back to the 84 Olympics and Moser's hour record. The relative investagative journalism is in Italian. Here is something, but with further research other, more specific articles,
can be found.

IL CONI PAGAVA LA FABBRICA DEL DOPING? - Marco Gregoretti

Una "fabbrica" di super-atleti. Giovani promesse, ma anche sportivi in gara alle olimpiadi, "truccati" con sostanze mediche off-limits per lo sport. DOPING.

www.marcogregoretti.it

It seems like we're talking about two different things now. One is Conconi's CONI funding, which indeed go further, the other is when he started to administer EPO to his clients.

 

[Extinction]

I was referring to the comment about them using EPO in 1984, which I have never heard before.
As far as I know, synthetic EPO hadn't been introduced to the market yet by that time, and Conconi's known "research" on its effects didn't take place until the early 90s. I therefore assumed you had made a mistake, unintentionally, of course.

Actually, I believe I've gotten the date wrong and confused events. Conconi, I've been told by someone who was on a CONI federation team back in the 80s, definitely began experimenting with first generation EPO after it was synthetically produced in 1985. A well know Italian sports journalist who I have ridden with has confirmed this for me. So for Moser EPO would have been administered in the 89 Giro when he beat Fignon, whereas Conconi was giving him blood transfusions for the 84 Mexico City hour record. Sorry for the confusion. Here's an article in Italian on the history of EPO doping (from the faculty of motoric science of the University of Verona): https://www.corsi.univr.it/documenti/OccorrenzaIns/matdid/matdid625177.pdf

 

[Rob5091]

When TV "journalists" become fan boys, then they become all part of the same circus.

Like in the Watergate story, 2 journalists from outside the normal political circle. broke the biggest story, despite their fellow journalist's skepticism. (having someone on the inside helps!) Not so long ago there was reports of guys in the peloton talking about thyroid medication to the press. Nothing was ever followed up, as far as I know.

It seems UCI, WADA and ITA think something new's going on in the peloton, going by their continued request for whistleblowers.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

Actually, I believe I've gotten the date wrong and confused events. Conconi, I've been told by someone who was on a CONI federation team back in the 80s, definitely began experimenting with first generation EPO after it was synthetically produced in 1985. A well know Italian sports journalist who I have ridden with has confirmed this for me. So for Moser EPO would have been administered in the 89 Giro when he beat Fignon, whereas Conconi was giving him blood transfusions for the 84 Mexico City hour record. Sorry for the confusion. Here's an article in Italian on the history of EPO doping: https://www.corsi.univr.it/documenti/OccorrenzaIns/matdid/matdid625177.pdf

First of all, sorry to everyone for derailing the thread a bit here.

I will in no way claim to be an expert on this subject, and there are definitely also people on here who have a greater knowledge than me. Since it also happened before I was born, it wasn't like I wouldn't be willing to believe what you said could be true. It was just that it didn't really match up with my understanding of how things have occurred back then.

I have no trouble whatsoever with believing Conconi and his team obtained the drug early on and already did experiments with it in 1989 though. That seems very plausible to me, so there's a chance I (and possibly others) might have learned something new during this exchange after all

 

[solo80k]

Sivakov doing +500 watts (7.4 watt/kg) for almost 10 minutes while drafting in Pogacar's wheel Are we sure that a motor in Pogacar's bike can't be part of the explanation? A rich team with access to official control equipement (x-ray, tablets...) and a lab to test the e-bike in all possible conditions could find ways to hide the motor, battery and gears.

When I was watching Pog riding in the last 50 KMS, it was looking like Combloux ITT from Jonas as if the bike was slowing the rider down. 😅

I'm more and more convinced that that involves another kind of fuck3ry - maybe some genetic modification, CO self- poisoning or... total immunity granted by UCI/ADA so you don't really care about getting caught.

 

[Extinction]

First of all, sorry to everyone for derailing the thread a bit here.

I will in no way claim to be an expert on this subject, and there are definitely also people on here who have a greater knowledge than me. Since it also happened before I was born, it wasn't like I wouldn't be willing to believe what you said could be true. It was just that it didn't really match up with my understanding of how things have occurred back then.

I have no trouble whatsoever with believing Conconi and his team obtained the drug early on and already did experiments with it in 1989 though. That seems very plausible to me, so there's a chance I (and possibly others) might have learned something new during this exchange after all

My Italian sources aren't making it up. That much is for sure. 😉

 

[Extinction]

Thanks! A very interesting read. I think the author did a good job putting into words a sort of high-brow version of the celebratory narrative. The goat, and all that, but with longer words.

To me the discussion of doping didn't read as a serious one though. Rather it was included either to just cover all bases, or to be dismissed as noise or nuisance via whichever route. His was aesthetics.

What he cannot explain away is that performances always imply an underlying physiology. As the article posted by extinction shows, the numbers were sky high (no pun intended). I mean first 5w/kg normalised for 4hrs and then start racing... 5-10min stints into 7,5-
8w/kg territory, etc.

Either Pog is genetically the superman he has been portrayed to be, but actually even better, because he found a way to bump up his level yet again this year; or he has an absolute gear advantage (also includes porridge and the like) in the current context. Combinations exist, but one of the factors is going to dominate when all is said.

Unfortunately both explanations are of the black box kind as of now. On the other hand there is the context: what is the likelihood of pulling off performances like that without porridge? Not very high, unless you believe in unicorns.

Regardless of whether he is doping or not, personally I find it perplexing that so many find utter domination aesthetically pleasing.

I agree, but for me it's the wholesome act under the tutelage of Gianetti-Matxin, the performance schemers behind the ill-fated Riccardo Ricco and Leonardo Piepoli, now financed by petrol dollars that really becomes too much to tolerate. It's like the whole world of cycling journalism has suddenly become afflicted with collective amnesia. And, yes, such dominance very soon becomes tedious and grotesque.

 

[pastronef]

Thibaut Pinot.



Tell me what else has to happen, all the human walls and the years of doping have been torn down by this guy. We continue to see absurd things and what happens?

We discuss and in two days everything is forgotten and we continue as if nothing had happened, now it's wrestling.

I think this forum is also read by professional cyclists, write here, write to some newspaper, write to Vayer, do something and reveal the substances.
Do you have dignity or are you only interested in 15k-30k a month?

Pinot beat the "dopers" on Tourmalet and Prat d'Albis 2019. clean rider faster than Ineos, Quickstep, Movistar, etc?

Vayer is a bitter vindictive clown with his twitter followers and his twitter rants and when he spoke in front of a court a few years ago they almost laughed at him and his ramblings that had nothing concrete and useful. you should see the clip of the tribunal, dear me, what a stupid obsessed person he is.

once again, we look at pro sport with the eyes of fans that are OUTSIDE of it. without ehinking that the rules, the thinking, the value, the duty, inside the pro cycling world, for people making a living out of it, is not worth a forum argument or any drunken word of a clown like Vayer.

 

[E_F_]

the rules, the thinking, the value, the duty, inside the pro cycling world, for people making a living out of it, is not worth a forum argument

What do you mean by this? That the culture is rotten to its core?

 

[Oldermanish]

I was referring to the comment about them using EPO in 1984, which I have never heard before.
As far as I know, synthetic EPO hadn't been introduced to the market yet by that time, and Conconi's known "research" on its effects didn't take place until the early 90s. I therefore assumed you had made a mistake, unintentionally, of course.

And why buy EPO when you just thaw out a bag of the rider's blood for free? Ed Burke and Eddie B did it at the '84 Olympics as it was still accepted "medical practice"......yeah, for cancer patients that had lost 40% of their red cell count to chemo. At least the number of US team riders that took the option was confirmed at 8. The rest didn't do it although there were 9 alleged doping infractions in LA that never were discussed.

 

[Oldermanish]

I agree, but for me it's the wholesome act under the tutelage of Gianetti-Matxin, the performance schemers behind the ill-fated Riccardo Ricco and Leonardo Piepoli, now financed by petrol dollars that really becomes too much to tolerate. It's like the whole world of cycling journalism has suddenly become afflicted with collective amnesia. And, yes, such dominance very soon becomes tedious and grotesque.

And you see a new wave of younger fans that have totally embraced the concept that riders that were caught doping, forced to surrender their titles were merely levelling the playing field. It was fair, get it? Based on the emerging attitudes of the most marketable demographic journalists need to pick a fight they can win, it seems.

 

[AverageWatts]

When I was watching Pog riding in the last 50 KMS, it was looking like Combloux ITT from Jonas as if the bike was slowing the rider down. 😅

I'm more and more convinced that that involves another kind of fuck3ry - maybe some genetic modification, CO self- poisoning or... total immunity granted by UCI/ADA so you don't really care about getting caught.

I just wanted to chime in with this theory, because until a athlete is proven guilty he should be considered clean.


I am pretty surprised none of you are discussing gene doping, you seem to obsess about EPO and GH.

 

[Extinction]

Perfomance depends on a multitude of factors but broadly you can place pretty much every factor in one of two categories. Intrinsic (to the athlete) or extrinsic.
Intrinsic factos are predetermined. Physiological/anthropometric traits that someone is born with. Nothing can be done to change those. Only 1% of the population has a VO2 max value higher than 65 ml/kg/min and the average value for elite cyclists is around 78. You have zero chance of winning the TdF if it's not in the high 80s. Not much one can do about that.
The extrinsic factors though are modifiable. Technique, nutrition, strength, equipment, even psychology, all can be tampered with and modified. And now the question becomes "what modifications are allowed and what are not". And there is not a clear cut answer, as every such modification is (or can be) performance enhancing.
So I am not sure what the point of the discussion is?
Whether the line has be drawn fairly? Or whether there should be a line in the first place?

Let's say extrinsic factors are illicit when pharmachology/blood extractions artificially raise intrinsic values beyond what otherwise can be obtained through normal training and nutrition; or tech variations (ie motors); or genetic manipulation. It's pretty simple. Craft and psychology are less relevant in the presence of the above cited variables.

 

[pastronef]

Actually, I believe I've gotten the date wrong and confused events. Conconi, I've been told by someone who was on a CONI federation team back in the 80s, definitely began experimenting with first generation EPO after it was synthetically produced in 1985. A well know Italian sports journalist who I have ridden with has confirmed this for me. So for Moser EPO would have been administered in the 89 Giro when he beat Fignon, whereas Conconi was giving him blood transfusions for the 84 Mexico City hour record. Sorry for the confusion. Here's an article in Italian on the history of EPO doping (from the faculty of motoric science of the University of Verona): https://www.corsi.univr.it/documenti/OccorrenzaIns/matdid/matdid625177.pdf

Moser did beat Fignon at the 84 Giro. in 89 Moser already ended his career and the 89 Giro was won by Fignon
Moser did his hour record in 84 in Mexico City 51.151 (with disc wheels)
he went there again in 1994 and did beat his own record (using the Obree position, and maybe EPO)