Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[Krzysztof_O]

Nah, I still don't believe you can hide a motor system generating significant boost. If true that would already have been tried in Formula 1 with far bigger budgets than even UAE (Formula 1 team budgets are restricted to $US 135mil). UAE's budget is €55 million to €60 million.

Word significant means something completely different for F1 and cycling. In cycling a 20 watts motor gives a big advantage of 0.3 w/kg. In F1 it's...0.03 horse power.

 

[peterfin]

So how could you avoid detection when motor doping?

• Change bikes before the finish
• Remove the motor from the bike after the finish
• Shield the motor from x-rays
• Make the motor look unsuspicious on x-ray photos
• "Conspiracy"

I don't think they do bike changes while Pogacar is cruising to victory (not sure, though).

The second one honestly seems like it could work - would explain Pogacar clinging on to his bike after Worlds.

I simply don't know enough about x-ray photography of bikes to say anything one way or another.

Conspiracies happen all the time, sports is no exception - far from it. The UCI, the UAE, the Mauro Gianetti... Doesn't seem like a stretch at all. Also perhaps the UCI have caught Pogacar and are furious, but they don't dare going public with it out of fear for their sport. And UAE are banking on that.

A big motor and battery set up would need the frame and you would see them using an x-ray but if you can put it in the hub of the rear wheel you could hide it from detection. A 50 watt bldc motor weights 100g. An optimized lipo battery delivering 50 watts during 30 min adds another 100g. Add gears and a motor controller and you end up with ~300g in a compact package.

Heat dissipation is only ~5-10 watts and cooling could be quick at the finish. The brake disk will light up much more.

Motor control could be without input from the rider. The motor could activate and deactivate conditionally (based on speed, acceleration, power, current, time ...) or wireless with for example a bluetooth connection from the team car or somebody positioned along the route. If there is mechanical doping involved (still a big if), I hink a complete independent unit without external control is the most likely setup.

So, yes, to me it looks feasible ... and sick.

 

[E_F_]

but if you can put it in the hub of the rear wheel you could hide it from detection

By it looking normal on x-ray photos, or by it being shielded from x-rays in the hub, or by simply changing the wheel before the test?

 

[Slavique Nuke]

So then the only person you can rule out of the whole field who uses a motor is Pogacar, because that would surely be the stupidest way to use a small limited motor for a 100km/long solo victories

 

[peterfin]

By it looking normal on x-ray photos, or by it being shielded from x-rays in the hub, or by simply changing the wheel before the test?

By being much more difficult to see and recognize on the x-ray due to its fitting in the aluminium hub with also the metal axle inside and the cassette blocking the frontal view. I don't know if it works but I assume they are more focussed on the frame to look for tube motors and batteries.

 

[Stablo]

Might be nothing, but on the finish straight of Lombardia Poggie is at one point very focused on pressing the bike computer off. He does it many times, almost like wanting to make sure something is off before he lifts his bike in the air for celebration. I was wondering it even live and checked again to make sure. Propably just shutting it early cause of the celebration, but still looked a bit out of the ordinary compared to the way the riders normally stop their ride recording.

Like I said propably nothing, but I immediately thought about the motor theory 😅

 

[peterfin]

So then the only person you can rule out of the whole field who uses a motor is Pogacar, because that would surely be the stupidest way to use a small limited motor for a 100km/long solo victories

Not if you use it to make a big gap first and use it stay within lactate thresholds to stay relatively fresh compared to the others. Keeping the gap is indeed difficult against a group if the battery is finally drained. During the WC RR he had difficulties to keep the gap and he looked exhausted at the finish so maybe he miscalculated his effort ;-)

 

[E_F_]

Might be nothing, but on the finish straight of Lombardia Poggie is at one point very focused on pressing the bike computer off. He does it many times, almost like wanting to make sure something is off before he lifts his bike in the air for celebration. I was wondering it even live and checked again to make sure. Propably just shutting it early cause of the celebration, but still looked a bit out of the ordinary compared to the way the riders normally stop their ride recording.

Like I said propably nothing, but I immediately thought about the motor theory 😅

Did the same at Worlds...

 

[E_F_]

use a small limited motor for a 100km/long solo

A little bit of power helps a lot if you want to keep a high speed on the flat. I often ride an e-bike, and the e-assist makes a big difference when I ride just below its 25km/h limit, even when I practically don't use it.

 

[Slavique Nuke]

Not if you use it to make a big gap first and use it stay within lactate thresholds to stay relatively fresh compared to the others. Keeping the gap is indeed difficult against a group if the battery is finally drained. During the WC RR he had difficulties to keep the gap and he looked exhausted at the finish so maybe he miscalculated his effort ;-)

It doesn't make any sense then, mate. The small motor + small battery you described will hardly help at all. Guys working together behind you in the slipstream will probably save more than the motor will give. If you are using a motor you will want to decide the race close to the finish. There is absolutely no point in risking an extremely long solo effort.

A little bit of power helps a lot if you want to keep a high speed on the flat. I often ride an e-bike, and the e-assist makes a big difference when I ride just below its 25km/h limit, even when I practically don't use it.

But he's on a 7kg bike, not a 14kg e-bike with a 4kg motor and a 2kg battery

 

[Cookster15]

then when the commentators remind them we’re not in the past anymore and everyone is clean now, they continue watching and forget about it.

Is this really the case? I say very few even new fans take any notice of what commentators say. I mean I've been watching pro cycling since about 1992 during the unrestricted EPO era. Back then we all accepted they were doping. The world's most famous cycling commentator Phil Liggett was saying the peloton was clean back in 1992! That doesn't mean he or anyone else anyone believed it. I don't believe fans or new people to the sport are that stupid or can't have a basic understanding of sports physiology - like how a clean rider can destroy climbing times from the EPO era.

 

[Extinction]

It doesn't make any sense then, mate. The small motor + small battery you described will hardly help at all. Guys working together behind you in the slipstream will probably save more than the motor will give. If you are using a motor you will want to decide the race close to the finish. There is absolutely no point in risking an extremely long solo effort.



But he's on a 7kg bike, not a 14kg e-bike with a 4kg motor and a 2kg battery

So, according to you, a motor giving him say 50-70, or even 30-40, watts wouldn't help? Well, I've got news for you, it would be a game changer.

 

[Cookster15]

Might be nothing, but on the finish straight of Lombardia Poggie is at one point very focused on pressing the bike computer off. He does it many times, almost like wanting to make sure something is off before he lifts his bike in the air for celebration. I was wondering it even live and checked again to make sure. Propably just shutting it early cause of the celebration, but still looked a bit out of the ordinary compared to the way the riders normally stop their ride recording.

Like I said propably nothing, but I immediately thought about the motor theory 😅

Pog posts his rides on Strava. More likely he was saving the ride.

 

[Extinction]

Is this really the case? I say very few even new fans take any notice of what commentators say. I mean I've been watching pro cycling since about 1992 during the unrestricted EPO era. Back then we all accepted they were doping. The world's most famous cycling commentator Phil Liggett was saying the peloton was clean back in 1992! That doesn't mean he or anyone else anyone believed it. I don't believe fans or new people to the sport are that stupid or can't have a basic understanding of sports physiology - like how a clean rider can destroy climbing times from the EPO era.

In the english speaking world. When someone like Johan Bruyneel recently says Pogacar is clean and that its all down to superior talent, you just know we're being taken for fools.

 

[peterfin]

It doesn't make any sense then, mate. The small motor + small battery you described will hardly help at all. Guys working together behind you in the slipstream will probably save more than the motor will give. If you are using a motor you will want to decide the race close to the finish. There is absolutely no point in risking an extremely long solo effort.



But he's on a 7kg bike, not a 14kg e-bike with a 4kg motor and a 2kg battery

Of course it will help. Doing a 100 km attack was not the best use of his extra power but it will still help. We know how eager Pogacar was to win the WC. The legs felt good and he had to go. Maybe his motor was activated accidentaly so he had no choice but go 😄

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Of course it will help. Doing a 100 km attack was not the best use of his extra power but it will still help. We know how eager Pogacar was to win the WC. The legs felt good and he had to go. Maybe his motor was activated accidentaly so he had no choice but go 😄

WC, 4 laps to go:

Teddy: What the hell? I can't slow down but it's too early to attack.
Giani (with RC in his hand): Come on, boy. Let's give people entertainment.

 

[Cookster15]

In the english speaking world. When someone like Johan Bruyneel recently says Pogacar is clean and that its all down to superior talent, you just know we're being taken for fools.

Sure, but who actually believes this? Bruyneel can say what he likes because he's on TV and doesn't want to get sued for being unable to prove in court.

 

[Ripper]

Yup. This should have been the baseline expectation to anyone who has ridden themselves and/or know the basic principles of training. Especially at the pro levels of loading, the secret really is that there is no secret. A good coach will ensure the athletes absorb as much as they can without digging a hole. It's as much art as science for sure.

I know it is a lot to assume mou was not talking from their backside, but let's pretend he wasn't. Even so, the changes Pog allegedly made were (IMHO) a) entirely sensible and b) nowhere near something super special or c) not enough to explain the level up.

Long threshold intervals with time in zone progressing session by session, or 40/20sec on/off blocks for instance have been a staple for lowly humps like myself for about two decades. So not very exclusive or revolutionary.

When mvdp published his 2022 spring workouts on strava there was absolutely nothing out of the ordinary in it, save for the quantities and frequency of intensity. It's just that the pros can absorb insane amounts of load and improve at a jaw dropping rate.

Somehow Pog fans bought the revolution in training explanation, though. It became a commonplace on this forum too.

It's funny because at first the now bad mouthed San Millan zone 2 thing was already used to explain his performances. So the "new regime" already is the second super special one. The alleged changes were more fine tuning than a change of philosophy.

Yup

 

[E_F_]

Did the same at Worlds...

Apropos; A bit of analysis of the Slovenian antics after the finish at the WCRR:

After MvdP's group crosses the line we see a distinctly dry-looking Pogster celebrating in a huddle of Team Slovenia guys, a handsome wizened looking fella hugs him and taps him on the shoulder to point him to where he has to go, while Pogi, who is honing in on a man with a massive rucksack, pays him no heed. Rucksack-man, who lets go of the Pogmobile, opens a water bottle and hands it to he who is Poggers, soon resulting in a distinctly wet appearance. Just before the metamorphosis commences we're greeted with the sudden appearance of a gentleman with UCI-logos on his clothes rather than those of NiceHash who grabs a paternal hold of the Pogical shoulders gets startled by the waterfall and, for a time, chooses to uphold social norms. Meanwhile rucksack-man hugs another staffer who was making sure the bike didn't fall to the ground, and gets a firm grip on said vehicle once more.

Following a brief look at a panting Matthew of the Pole's desperate attempt to lie down on his bike, we see that Father UCI has once again found his way to the back of Pog, which he carresses and pushes along to official duties awaiting. Pog-Man hands rucksack-man his helmet and sunnies and the entourage goes on it's merry way.

Once the action, which has once again been disrupted by MvdP - this time using his top tube to split his bum-cheeks and ball-sack respectively - the Pogimon suddenly goes barging through a wall of press photographers, and runs away from his UCI daddy towards his famed non-Olympian girlfriend, and as he embraces her he is also embraced by cameras.

On the perimeter of this manifestation of love and fame we find the devoted squire of this tale, rucksack-man, desperately seeking his beloved knight with wanton disregard for the well-bred carbon steed entrusted to his care. A new rough, unloving agent of the UCI has seized this opportunity to seize the bike. Seized by fear a private, sporting a Slovenian flag patch on his shoulder, who has come into possesion of the helmet and visor of Sir Pogacelot, scrambles around the stocky thief to regain control of the bike. A heated argument between the two ensues, the seemingly rather disinterested man, who had been holding the bike while filming the happy couple, points to the bike computer, gives his subordinate an order, resumes filming for a while until he is seemingly dragged back into the discussion, which now mainly consists of the UCI representative shouting at the man who is now holding the bike. At the same time a seemingly even more disinterested member of the press corp holding his phone up, hand in pocket, looking down notices the commotion, turns to the bike, crouches and sticks his phone right into the seat tube.

Back in the eye of the storm the UCI-Father has found his way back to his Prodigal Son and pushes him along once more. Now rucksack-man makes his trumphant return and stretches his arm across to Urska, thus seperating athlete from governing body. This is not appreciated, and rucksack-man is told as much.

 

[Zoetemelk-fan]

Do you guys think that motor doping is actually being used? I just refuse to believe it.

It's a perfectly fair question in this subforum and a perfectly fair point of view to have IMO.
I too want a starting point with the riders being innocent until proven guilty. And I try to abstract from anything else while watching the races.

But now that you ask, abstraction sometimes comes difficult to me in relation to what I'm witnessing.

So to answer you:
Yes, for the past half decade or so I have had strong suspicions of an advanced form of motor doping. As I mentioned in my previous post, in recent years my thoughts have revolved strongly around an advanced form of passive dynamic device, which is difficult to track.

As well as other suspicions that I try to reason my way through, as summary images that may possibly provide logic.

I'm also not much for scattered shots with the hip and division "you're either for or against", or unconsciously hitching a ride on a train, perhaps in fear of feeling ignorant, but leaving a shadow of unnecessary attacks.

On the contrary I like that various observations are shared, followed by personal considerations in a healthy debate climate.

In my eyes that's what this subforum is made for and what I like it for.

 

[GuntherL1]

We have to look forward. What do you guys think about Pablo Torres and his absurd climb of the Colle della Finestre in the Tour de l'Avenir this year?
I'm getting Pog vibes. A good young rider, but not exceptional, suddenly outperforms after signing for UAE.
There's a very interesting potential comparison between Torres and Jarno Widar. They were born a couple of days apart.
Widar has outperformed Torres, except in the Tour de l'Avenir.
What can we expect next season? Will they evolve at a similar rate or will UAE perform its magic with Torres?
He signed a very long contract, so he has Gianetti's trust, whatever that may be.

 

[YellowSocks]

Do you still have room for another refugee?

I'm not a doctor or an engineer, so I'm not going to repeat what many of you here have mentioned (traditional doping, marine worms and other weird things, genetic doping, electric/magnetic propulsion...). On the other hand, I do read French (well... I'm French - sorry for that) and I can only invite you to go and read the French version of David Lappartient's Wikipedia page (it's such a shame it's so succinct in English, luckily online translators are quite good by now). And a few press articles if you can find any. It might give you some ideas. As far as I'm concerned, I'm not counting on him to find motors. I'm not counting on him to find anything. If he becomes president of the IOC, Pogi may run and win the 2028 Olympics. He may also run and win the 2032 ones. Four-time Olympic medallist, that would be something.

At the moment I can't find enough time to go and speculate about this three-speed cycling in the State of the peloton 2024 thread, but be sure I don't forget Vingegaard and his totally panicked face when he looked at his power meter at the finish in Combloux. At the time it was +20 watts (as he said in an interview once he'd calmed down), but since then things have obviously improved a lot.

For 2025, the suspense remains. Will the second-speed riders continue to toil like slave labour behind tricked-out bikes without complaining? Will Remco turn to the Dark side or drown his ambitions in a pot of B&J? Will the third-speed riders decide to go on strike? Given the exponential increase in speeds, will the UCI make new protective equipment compulsory? I can't wait to find out.

 

[peterfin]

We have to look forward. What do you guys think about Pablo Torres and his absurd climb of the Colle della Finestre in the Tour de l'Avenir this year?
I'm getting Pog vibes. A good young rider, but not exceptional, suddenly outperforms after signing for UAE.
There's a very interesting potential comparison between Torres and Jarno Widar. They were born a couple of days apart.
Widar has outperformed Torres, except in the Tour de l'Avenir.
What can we expect next season? Will they evolve at a similar rate or will UAE perform its magic with Torres?
He signed a very long contract, so he has Gianetti's trust, whatever that may be.

Torres colle de la finestre climb is really legendary stuff: 6.09 W/kg for 1 hour! This 18 yo did 25 W more than Blackmore for the full 1 hour climb. It's basically all in the same ballpark. Pog is adding ~0.4-0.5 W/kg to his 30-40 min climbs compared to 2023 so about 30 W extra.

 

[Rule #9 apostle]

By being much more difficult to see and recognize on the x-ray due to its fitting in the aluminium hub with also the metal axle inside and the cassette blocking the frontal view. I don't know if it works but I assume they are more focussed on the frame to look for tube motors and batteries.

Why would you assume that? A bike wheel (or a frame in general) is not a very mysterious mechanism. And why would people working on this not look there as well. Generally I find it hard to believe that you could actually hide this stuff from someone actively looking for it time and time again? Seems less plausible than him being the strongest rider.

 

[Gratemans]

Because I don't want to spoil the fun in the echo-chamber that the Pogacar-thread (which just basically sounds like a very loud threesome at this point) I'll put it here:

What Pog does right now, is a proper snooze fest. It's so predictable and boring (like F1 in Schumacher Ferrari era). You know, he can jump anytime he wants and no one can follow. Another xx km solo for the win. If that's not boring, i don't know what it is.

Every dominance like that becomes boring quick. Fanboys are happy, because they only chase the latest winners and will climb on the next bandwagon, when Pog slows down. And Pog real fans are happy for sure. Every other cyclists fan will probably skip the next race Pog is in, because why bother watching one guy winning and other kids playing in the background?

Good thing is, nothing lasts forever and cycling can change quickly.


(Moderator note: moved, along with the following reply, from Roglic thread)

Yes, a lot of people seem to be asleep.
I'm putting whatever is left of my faith in your last sentence..

(and just to reiterate: no, I don't think Pog is the only one)