Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[houtdffan]

Pog rides for Saunier Duval
Vingo for the Bank Robbers
Remco for Mapei

OF COURSE THEY ARE ALL DOPING TO THE GILLS!

 

[E_F_]

Because it can't be hidden and nothing posted here says they exist. It is only possible with UCI collusion. It would already be tried in Formula 1 if it was technically feasible.

I fail to see why it's possible application in Formula 1 necessarily says anything about it's feasibility in cycling. There are plenty of reasons to think/know that such motor do exist. And I'll try again: How do you believe they would be detected?

 

[Casual cyclist]

Nah, I still don't believe you can hide a motor system generating significant boost. If true that would already have been tried in Formula 1 with far bigger budgets than even UAE (Formula 1 team budgets are restricted to $US 135mil). UAE's budget is €55 million to €60 million.

Are you serious about that? I mean, off-the-shelf road e-bikes that produce up to 500W of boost already look almost "normal". And a one-off custom system you can spend millions developing can't be made a bit smaller? You don't believe that but you do believe in an existence of chemical doping that can make a person produce 500W while in zone 2, chatting away, smile on the weasel-like face? Or do you think that sci-fi genetic doping is a more technically feasible (we are not talking about societal issues here, that it could destroy the sport etc.) solution than a mere brushless motor in one form or another?

P.S. As that celebrated Guardian sports writer already stated, the issue is not exactly what means Pog uses for forward propulsion. Rather, it is all about enjoyment of the show (if you can stomach it), the beauty of it and, of course, believing in miracles. Summarizing, just do not watch if you do not like it (and remain, according to the same writer, "profane and fearful") because many other people apparently do (and thereby choose "beauty beyond corruption, a hope beyond futility, a wonder beyond cynicism"), Thanks to the folks who found that article. To me, it pretty much says it all.

 

[TrekCyclist]

Because it can't be hidden and nothing posted here says they exist.

Whether a motor can be hidden, depends on how thoroughly one looks for it. If they have to hand in the bikes after the finish line, and a skilled mechanic can have a look - nothing can be hidden. Not sure, thats happening, though.
About the existance - there is a video where Tyler Hamilton gets one of these for a test ride. You just need 50W extra for 30 min at the end...which is less than 0,05 kWh.

 

[Cookster15]

Are you serious about that? I mean, off-the-shelf road e-bikes that produce up to 500W of boost already look almost "normal". And a one-off custom system you can spend millions developing can't be made a bit smaller? You don't believe that but you do believe in an existence of chemical doping that can make a person produce 500W while in zone 2, chatting away, smile on the weasel-like face? Or do you think that sci-fi genetic doping is a more technically feasible (we are not talking about societal issues here, that it could destroy the sport etc.) solution than a mere brushless motor in one form or another?

Trained mechanics can't find motors? UCI mechanics open the bottom brackets? I mentioned in other posts that only UCI collusion can allow that. Brushless motors are round. They can't be "distributed" as you put it. You are referring to possible magnetic assistance which I also doubt. As I also mentioned Formula 1 don't get away with such cheating and that sport has budgets that (still) dwarf anything that oil money invests in cycling. I am using Occum's razor here.

Edit: And no need to exaggerate about "500W while in zone 2, chatting away, smile on the weasel-like face". Nobody has suggested Indurain power level until now.

 

[Cookster15]

Whether a motor can be hidden, depends on how thoroughly one looks for it. If they have to hand in the bikes after the finish line, and a skilled mechanic can have a look - nothing can be hidden. Not sure, thats happening, though.
About the existance - there is a video where Tyler Hamilton gets one of these for a test ride. You just need 50W extra for 30 min at the end...which is less than 0,05 kWh.

That is what I suggested - possible UCI collusion.

 

[Cookster15]

I fail to see why it's possible application in Formula 1 necessarily says anything about it's feasibility in cycling. There are plenty of reasons to think/know that such motor do exist. And I'll try again: How do you believe they would be detected?

Inspection. Bikes can be pulled apart. Bottom brackets, seat tubes, wheels. hubs. Not difficult or expensive to police.

 

[Casual cyclist]

Yeah, but it might be true. It's worth noting, I think.

edit: Well, it isn't. He was deselected by the team.

Returning to that discussion. Did you see that Pidcock was deselected by "management decision" and not based on performance. Recalling that he seems to by a spunky outspoken kid, would you not say that my original hypothesis may not have been all that wrong after all. Say, during a pre-race team meeting, discussing tactics for Lombardia, he blurbs something like "good luck trying to follow an e-bike". And, for the team management that was already filled in on the rules of the game for this year, that's a bit too much to allow. Thus, "deselection by management decision."

 

[Krzysztof_O]

I'm only posting in this thread because of yesterday tbh. What I saw was quite straightforward: Pog had his usual approach to Lombardia. Aka he peaked again yesterday after Emilia. But whereas last year he was beatable in Emilia a week before Lombardia, this year that 'slightly lesser' version of Pog in Emilia was still at such a level he could demolish everyone. And then... he demolished everyone even more yesterday when he once again had his Lombardia peak.

It's like there's a graph now on which Pog crushes everyone when he's in okay shape building up towards a main objective.. and then embarrassingly crushes everyone when he's peaking. And he peaks multiple times a year.

It's otherworldly.

TBH when I was watching yesterday I couldn't believe that he was battling with Mas 2 years ago
His "base" level this year is enough to win almost all races in style (i.e. Giro, Liege, Catalunya) while his peak is absolutely scary, by far the highest level ever seen.

 

[Casual cyclist]

Trained mechanics can't find motors? UCI mechanics open the bottom brackets? I mentioned in other posts that only UCI collusion can allow that. Brushless motors are round. They can't be "distributed" as you put it. You are referring to possible magnetic assistance which I also doubt. As I also mentioned Formula 1 don't get away with such cheating and that sport has budgets that (still) dwarf anything that oil money invests in cycling. I am using Occum's razor here.

Edit: And no need to exaggerate about "500W while in zone 2, chatting away, smile on the weasel-like face". Nobody has suggested Indurain power level until now.

Seriously, is it Aprli 1st yet? Of course they can... if they are allowed. Of course, a collusion is involved. How else would you pull it off? Go back to WCRR discussion here and find that reference to an altercation between UAE mechanic and a race official apparently involving something like that: the latter unknowingly wanting to take Pog's bike for an inspection, and the former refusing to release it.

As to 500W, check out that race-winning acceleration in Lombardia. It is at least 700W. Then he settles into an easy to him pace still increasing the gap. Would you not say that has to be close to 500? And he is not even gassed from the original burst. Then on the flat. The "aero-bullet" Remco giving his all and Pog still increases the gap -- in this preferred "coal miner" position. Would not he have to push some 20% more than Remco to do so?

 

[Cookster15]

Of course, a collusion is involved. How else would you pull if off?

You could simply have left it at that.

 

[Red Rick]

Do you guys think that motor doping is actually being used? I just refuse to believe it.

Inclined to say no too.

I don't think the patterns add up that much. Everyone goes fast, so if it explains all the crazy improvements everyone needs to be on them, and if everyone were on them, I'd think we'd hear something bout that.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Do you guys think that motor doping is actually being used? I just refuse to believe it.

This year for the first time ever I actually started fearing this could be the case. Some performances seem so effortless. It would be the end of cycling in my eyes. Standard rocket fuel is still a realistic option though. As @Red Rick posted, the Tour showed progression of various riders from various teams indicating this. I don't know how they can manipulate blood in a way to achieve this kind of performances without ridiculous blood parameter values known from the 90s (which actually indicate oxygen transport ability). Or there is maybe another way to improve thresholds but it still looks a bit like SF compared to blood manipulation.

 

[Froome]

I also have a theory about the secret of the rocket fuel being in the bottles.

 

[Extinction]

It's out there and will be used, otherwise we just get the e-bike Giro as a promotion.

 

[Red Rick]

This year for the first time ever I actually started fearing this could be the case. Some performances seem so effortless. It would be the end of cycling in my eyes. Standard rocket fuel is still a realistic option though. As @Red Rick posted, the Tour showed progression of various riders from various teams indicating this. I don't know how they can manipulate blood in a way to achieve this kind of performances without ridiculous blood parameter values known from the 90s (which actually indicate oxygen transport ability). Or there is maybe another way to improve thresholds but it still looks a bit like SF compared to blood manipulation.

I can't see how it wouldn't show up in blood. But I guess the bio passport is basically broken to the point that they don't pursue high profile cases anymore.

Pogacar even readily admitted the CO thing. Which should be banned by the virtue of 'it's blood vector manipulation'.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

I can't see how it wouldn't show up in blood. But I guess the bio passport is basically broken to the point that they don't pursue high profile cases anymore.

Pogacar even readily admitted the CO thing. Which should be banned by the virtue of 'it's blood vector manipulation'.

it seemed that the passport actually worked better in the 2010s (slowdown). The escalation of power since 2020 (and another jump this year) means that either it became completely useless (still I can't completely get how to improve oxygen carrying capacity to record-breaking levels without passport violations) or there's also something else going on affecting metabolism (on top of moderate blood manipulation).

 

[Netserk]

I can't see how it wouldn't show up in blood. But I guess the bio passport is basically broken to the point that they don't pursue high profile cases anymore.

Pogacar even readily admitted the CO thing. Which should be banned by the virtue of 'it's blood vector manipulation'.

They admitted it for testing. I think it'd have to be used as a "hypoxia-inducible factor (HIF) activating agent" to fall under S2.1.2, and I guess you'd need greater dose than for testing to see it have that effect?

 

[vwpe]

To just deppreciate a rider? Of course not. And no, we don't have different opinions, Pogacar is doped to the gills but coming here saying he is worse than LA? Are we serious? And I'm not talking about doping, I'm talking about personality. I was a huge fan of LA but he humiliated a lot of people and reading here Pogacar is worse than him, it's not okay.

It is a shame people can just say whatever without any evidence I agree but that is all it is. And seeing most of the names your smart enough to figure out the rest, you shouldnt bother. Pogacar is the most beloved and revered rider since Pantani and likely even more. Comparing him to Armstrong you should care about, Armstrong wasnt even half the rider Pogacar is.

 

[Cookster15]

But I guess the bio passport is basically broken

I don’t see why this would be true. Technically the bio passport is sound, legally there has been issues making cases stick but I don’t see those as insurmountable. It all comes back to resolve. Resolve of the UCI versus those who seek an unfair advantage.

 

[Red Rick]

Resolve of the UCI versus those who seek an unfair advantage.

Guess we are well and truly *** then

 

[Divergence]

Its called politics, history shows that's not the case, Lance Armstrong would regularly 'gift' the yellow jersey and stages away, often to French riders to get on side with the French media. UAE don't very often let brakes get away, overtime this will frustrate other teams, and they will suffer from their greed. Look what happend to Pantani in the 1999 Giro when he got greedy and took the piss out of his rivals or when Armstrong got greedy and made a comeback. History shows greedy riders get punished.

That was as much for tactical reasons as was to suck up to the French media. Johan Bruyneel still talks that kind of tactics on his podcast. Additionally, it did not endear LA much to anybody as it seems.

I would argue the way to do that (certainly if you're cheating) involves considering how much you can get away with.

The thing is, I believe, that even if Pog is cheating he would not consider it as cheating. We have heard that many people who confessed said that they kinda knew it was wrong but that everybody was doing it (obviously they would say this rather than plainly "yes I wanted to dope to be better) and therefore what they were doing is really just playing on a level field. Additionally, if one trains all the time and puts as much work in being the best as the top riders (Pog included) there is no way one should be thinking of giving away a victory other than to a teammate.
Maybe if one is doping and doing something illegal such ideas of flying under the radar and gifting stuff would come into play, but maybe that is why Pog is not doing it. Some 4D chess going on...

In any case (say everybody is clean) I am a firm belieber of never gifting anything and always going for the victory if possible and tactically justifiable.

As a final comment, I believe that the peloton as a whole is much more professional and trains much better than the cyclists from 15 years ago (or even more recently) and this has to be taking into consideration when making performance plausibility estimations.

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

Because it can't be hidden and nothing posted here says they exist. It is only possible with UCI collusion. It would already be tried in Formula 1 if it was technically feasible.

Yeah, just imagine if they were to start using motors in F1...

 

[Raest]

Returning to that discussion. Did you see that Pidcock was deselected by "management decision" and not based on performance. Recalling that he seems to by a spunky outspoken kid, would you not say that my original hypothesis may not have been all that wrong after all. Say, during a pre-race team meeting, discussing tactics for Lombardia, he blurbs something like "good luck trying to follow an e-bike". And, for the team management that was already filled in on the rules of the game for this year, that's a bit too much to allow. Thus, "deselection by management decision."

Nah…. It’s just that Cummings is a useless DS and he pointed it out. I am guessing he’s said worse in private and the rumour is that he told them that he is leaving

 

[E_F_]

Inspection. Bikes can be pulled apart. Bottom brackets, seat tubes, wheels. hubs. Not difficult or expensive to police.

Not difficult or expensive to pull every single bike apart before and after every race/stage?