Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[Rob5091]

So the problem lies with us not Pogacar. We're sick!
https://cyclinguptodate.com/cycling...-from-enjoying-the-greatness-of-tadej-pogacar

"All behavioral, psychosociological and neurological studies will confirm it, the cycling spectator is eternally dissatisfied. The reason for this state is now known, it is the result of the association of two serious pathologies, one called 'Merckxism Syndrome' and the other called 'Armstrongian Trauma'," Marc Fayet explains in his Cyclism'Actu column. ... So far, Pogacar's dominance has been very Merckx-esque. So much that many would refuse to accept someone winning so easily: "It would seem that in 2024, these two dormant diseases will suddenly emerge to become one and will take over the entire cycling world, preventing us from properly enjoying the advent of the greatest cycling champion in the world," Fayet points out.

Original article at https://www.cyclismactu.net/news-cyclisme-chronique-marc-fayet-pogacar-syndrome-du-merckx-traumatisme-armstrong-84656.html

 

[Nick2413]

We have to look forward. What do you guys think about Pablo Torres and his absurd climb of the Colle della Finestre in the Tour de l'Avenir this year?
I'm getting Pog vibes. A good young rider, but not exceptional, suddenly outperforms after signing for UAE.
There's a very interesting potential comparison between Torres and Jarno Widar. They were born a couple of days apart.
Widar has outperformed Torres, except in the Tour de l'Avenir.
What can we expect next season? Will they evolve at a similar rate or will UAE perform its magic with Torres?
He signed a very long contract, so he has Gianetti's trust, whatever that may be.

Ayuso (so far) is proof that this is still a betting game and not even UAE can just wave a magic wand to get the new Merckx. But that Avenir performance was unsettling. It’s way too early to know how long Pogacar will be at the top but there’s no doubt they are already looking for the next Pogacar and will have no qualms moving on to unleash the next world beater when the time comes. The team is obviously strong enough to get a number of guys into GT podium shape already if need be, but they will want another killer. If Torres suddenly starts handing bottles to little kids, watch out.

 

[Cookster15]

Why would you assume that? A bike wheel (or a frame in general) is not a very mysterious mechanism. And why would people working on this not look there as well. Generally I find it hard to believe that you could actually hide this stuff from someone actively looking for it time and time again? Seems less plausible than him being the strongest rider.

I agree that I don’t believe motors can be hidden from any competent mechanic. What is more plausible IMO is that they are not looking very hard. All it would take is to check the bikes of top three finishers in every race or stage. Bottom brackets are the most likely place to hide a motor. Easy peasy for any trained mechanic. Instead we see hype over x-ray machines and thermal detectors. I don’t know why but I worry that this expensive technology is a smokescreen to avoid doing very simple checks.

 

[Rob5091]

Mainly because I was only talking about motors...

It does seem that after some digging around the UCI do the bike tests and not the International Testing Agency, which is interesting.

 

[Extinction]

I too want a starting point with the riders being innocent until proven guilty. And I try to abstract from anything else while watching the races.

I think it's legitimate to bear in mind that the legal standard of "innocent until proven guilty" doesn't have the same validity in the sphere of personal opinion that it does in the court of law. Anyone is free to draw their own conclusions, based on the history of the sport, experience and reasonable doubt and nobody, on this alone, gets sanctioned. When guys like Gianetti-Matxin, the reason for this thread, are involved and the confluence of outcomes regarding the above mentioned criteria are negative, together with what is actually taking place on the road; namely, EPO enhanced climbing records are literally being destroyed, then you simply cannot presume innocence. It would simply defy all reason.

 

[Divergence]

I agree that I don’t believe motors can be hidden from any competent mechanic. What is more plausible IMO is that they are not looking very hard. All it would take is to check the bikes of top three finishers in every race or stage. Bottom brackets are the most likely place to hide a motor. Easy peasy for any trained mechanic. Instead we see hype over x-ray machines and thermal detectors. I don’t know why but I worry that this expensive technology is a smokescreen to avoid doing very simple checks.

To add to your first thought. Any form of a motor must obey the laws of physics. Assuming that its working principle is based on the EM force (and not, say, anti-gravity )there must be a magnetic flux through some surface and it must be detectable.
I believe the reason the authorities are using (pushing for the use) of X-ray scanners (again EM force) is because there is no need to disassemble the bike. I remember there was a GT stage win where they disassembled Rogla's bike and nobody from the team was very happy about the job they did.

 

[Rechtschreibfehler]

Ad motors:

So if it is motors they've got to be widespread to explain the overall jumps in performance by many a rider. If that's the case, the difference in performance could be explained by difference in motors. Yet: how realistic is it to have motors that are really far away from each other in power output? But if they are close to each other in performance, Pogacar seems to rest inexplainable IMO, because his advantage wouldn't be that huge without his own power being the most dominant aspect?
Also if they cooperate only with UAE e.g., what's the point in making Pogacar so dominant? It's not good for the product is it? It's not even good for the product Pogacar and you risk getting enough outisde attention, that someone might just start looking to closely.

 

[Zoetemelk-fan]

By being much more difficult to see and recognize on the x-ray due to its fitting in the aluminium hub with also the metal axle inside and the cassette blocking the frontal view. I don't know if it works but I assume they are more focussed on the frame to look for tube motors and batteries.

That's why my thoughts recent years have hovered around a possible passive dynamic device, i.e. built in the frame topology, maybe adding just a tiny bit of magnetic flux adding maybe just 20-30 watts, but of which is decisive, his competitors being on the limit.

But just stray nagging concerns from here.

I have no idea how UCI do the tests.
However, as an engineer myself for nearly 30 years, I've witnessed several jawdropping not-so-thoughtfull testbenches through the years.

And my additional suspicion is, if the testers observe some obscure things on the bikes, that maybe even with blind-eye acceptance from UCI with good dining from the UAE.

Thats my honest worrying thoughts...

 

[danielovichdk2]

Everyone of you need to take a step back.

We will not get any evidence before we have real data. Weight, watt numbers for a start. Of course the guy is doped, there is absolutely no doubt about it - but the product might not be on the list. That doesn't matter in my opinion but that's just me.

It also seemed everyone had bought into the zone 2 story. ***. No one is pushing 320-340 watts for 4-5 hours in training. People eat everything they're served it seems.

Another bad story for cycling. Pog and Mauro. What a *** show.

 

[Peyroteo94]

Everyone of you need to take a step back.

We will not get any evidence before we have real data. Weight, watt numbers for a start. Of course the guy is doped, there is absolutely no doubt about it - but the product might not be on the list. That doesn't matter in my opinion but that's just me.

It also seemed everyone had bought into the zone 2 story. ***. No one is pushing 320-340 watts for 4-5 hours in training. People eat everything they're served it seems.

Another bad story for cycling. Pog and Mauro. What a *** show.

Why isn't he pushing 320-340 watts for 5 hours? I really believe it is true and this is a proof something new is on the menu of top riders again. He is so much better than everyone else so he is really pushing some incredible watts even on flat roads. We already have interviews with UAE riders and some of them said they don't like to train with Pogi because he would burn them after a couple of hours.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

It also seemed everyone had bought into the zone 2 story. ***. No one is pushing 320-340 watts for 4-5 hours in training. People eat everything they're served it seems.

Pogacar's anaerobic threshold seems to be around 440-450 watts (6.8-6.9 w/kg). I think it's plausible that 320-340 watts (70-75% of his AnT) is still the upper part of his zone2 (near aerobic threshold).

 

[Froome]

Why isn't he pushing 320-340 watts for 5 hours? I really believe it is true and this is a proof something new is on the menu of top riders again. He is so much better than everyone else so he is really pushing some incredible watts even on flat roads. We already have interviews with UAE riders and some of them said they don't like to train with Pogi because he would burn them after a couple of hours.

No, he is not. You can say that 273747 times everyday, and will still not be true, because he wasn't "so much better than everyone else" in the previous seasons.

If you are not so much better than the others in the previous seasons, and suddendly you are so much better, then something is really wrong, and the history of cycling tell us, this will finish in a bad way for everybody.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

No, he is not. You can say that 273747 times everyday, and will still not be true, because he wasn't "so much better than everyone else" in the previous seasons.

If you are not so much better than the others in the previous seasons, and suddendly you are so much better, then something is really wrong, and the history of cycling tell us, this will finish in a bad way for everybody.

Vingo wasn't much better than everybody else during Tours 2022-2023 because he wasn't in 2020-2021?

 

[Rob5091]

Hold onto your hats as things might get even more "extreme" -

https://cycling.today/pogacar-still-has-margin-for-improvement-says-mauro-gianetti/#google_vignette
Tadej Pogacar has not yet reached his physical peak, UAE Emirates team manager Mauro Gianetti says.

“He’s still so young. He’s still 26 and we know that riders can improve physically until at least their thirties. It’s also necessary that he continues to develop, because the competition does that too. I think that’s especially true for guys like Remco Evenepoel, and the young guys who are coming up.”

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Hold onto your hats as things might get even more "extreme" -

https://cycling.today/pogacar-still-has-margin-for-improvement-says-mauro-gianetti/#google_vignette
Tadej Pogacar has not yet reached his physical peak, UAE Emirates team manager Mauro Gianetti says.

“He’s still so young. He’s still 26 and we know that riders can improve physically until at least their thirties. It’s also necessary that he continues to develop, because the competition does that too. I think that’s especially true for guys like Remco Evenepoel, and the young guys who are coming up.”

At least thirties, too good! His current attacking w/kg will have become his Z2 by then!

 

[Raest]

He is not pushing 320 W for 5 hours. He explained this on Attia's podcast. When he trains around Monaco because it constantly up anddown, he does 320-340 W during climgs (which for him is Zone 2) then he rests on the decents. When he rides flat he can't keep that wattage for 5 hours as there is no respite.
Another interesting tidbit from this podacst was that he doesn't like power as much as he likes heart rate for training as power data can be up and down depending on the weather or calibration (it doesn't help I guess that they are sponsored by Shimano who apparently have one of the more inaccurate power metres in the market-allegedly)

 

[Peyroteo94]

He is not pushing 320 W for 5 hours. He explained this on Attia's podcast. When he trains around Monaco because it constantly up anddown, he does 320-340 W during climgs (which for him is Zone 2) then he rests on the decents. When he rides flat he can't keep that wattage for 5 hours as there is no respite.
Another interesting tidbit from this podacst was that he doesn't like power as much as he likes heart rate for training as power data can be up and down depending on the weather or calibration (it doesn't help I guess that they are sponsored by Shimano who apparently have one of the more inaccurate power metres in the market-allegedly)

He clearly said he likes going to Calpe doing 5 hours non stop training just at zone 2. Then after a question from Attia, he said he is pushing 320-340 watts. I will go back to see the interview again but I think I'm right

 

[glassmoon]

anything he's saying to counter the doping accusations is just fairytale anyways... it always is... and was

 

[Nick2413]

I don’t buy for a second anybody is doing 5 hour training rides at 320-340W. That would be what he does on certain climbs or sections of the ride, or a race pace 5 hour TT.

 

[meat puppet]

I think kryzsztof's numbers are quite correct in a static setting. Surely Pog will have the so called lower threshold around those levels. Wva once reported his lower threshold around 350w, though he is heavier and carefully emphasized that they only did 20min chunks every hour because of the metabolic demands. So the plausibility of training constantly in that range is dictated by multiple factors.

For one, glycogen expenditure and replenishment is also a constraint. It is rate limited, which means that simply eating more carbs will not do all of the tricks. Riders and their entourage always need to think about how to best spend the glycogen budget.

Now, 320w for an hour costs about 1150kJ. Some of it will be muscle glycogen. It simply needs to be replenished, especially if one is planning to do some intensity the following days. Some of the expenditure can be covered by on the bike nutrition, but not all.

Multiply the expenditure by 4-5hrs a day, and all I can say is bon appetit, because you need to train tomorrow too. 5-6000kJ is no joke to recover from especially on a daily basis. It's basically GT mountain stages or monument level of expenditure, only distributed more evenly because of the constant power design.

 

[PolkaDot1]

Hold onto your hats as things might get even more "extreme" -

https://cycling.today/pogacar-still-has-margin-for-improvement-says-mauro-gianetti/#google_vignette
Tadej Pogacar has not yet reached his physical peak, UAE Emirates team manager Mauro Gianetti says.

“He’s still so young. He’s still 26 and we know that riders can improve physically until at least their thirties. It’s also necessary that he continues to develop, because the competition does that too. I think that’s especially true for guys like Remco Evenepoel, and the young guys who are coming up.”

Well, I honestly think this cannot go much further. Sooner or later they will step on to many toes. I mean, regardless of what the competition is saying publically, they are the first who know what is going on here. So far it might be that speaking your mind will mainly compromise yourself, but at some point it might become the collective interest...

 

[DutchDynamite]

He clearly said he likes going to Calpe doing 5 hours non stop training just at zone 2. Then after a question from Attia, he said he is pushing 320-340 watts. I will go back to see the interview again but I think I'm right

my understanding from the interview is that he rides 320-340 watts in monaco due to the mountainous terrain, because he can recover on the descents. When he is in calpe and rides on the flat, he “only” rides 290 watts because he pedals non-stop there

 

[Nick2413]

I think kryzsztof's numbers are quite correct in a static setting. Surely Pog will have the so called lower threshold around those levels. Wva once reported his lower threshold around 350w, though he is heavier and carefully emphasized that they only did 20min chunks every hour because of the metabolic demands. So the plausibility of training constantly in that range is dictated by multiple factors.

For one, glycogen expenditure and replenishment is also a constraint. It is rate limited, which means that simply eating more carbs will not do all of the tricks. Riders and their entourage always need to think about how to best spend the glycogen budget.

Now, 320w for an hour costs about 1150kJ. Some of it will be muscle glycogen. It simply needs to be replenished, especially if one is planning to do some intensity the following days. Some of the expenditure can be covered by on the bike nutrition, but not all.

Multiply the expenditure by 4-5hrs a day, and all I can say is bon appetit, because you need to train tomorrow too. 5-6000kJ is no joke to recover from especially on a daily basis. It's basically GT mountain stages or monument level of expenditure, only distributed more evenly because of the constant power design.

They’re still eating and burning around that much regardless though, even a few hundred less cals per hour is still huge with the volume they do. And since their weight isn’t perpetually going down they are replacing them all regardless of fat to carb burn ratio changing at different intensities.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

I think kryzsztof's numbers are quite correct in a static setting. Surely Pog will have the so called lower threshold around those levels. Wva once reported his lower threshold around 350w, though he is heavier and carefully emphasized that they only did 20min chunks every hour because of the metabolic demands. So the plausibility of training constantly in that range is dictated by multiple factors.

For one, glycogen expenditure and replenishment is also a constraint. It is rate limited, which means that simply eating more carbs will not do all of the tricks. Riders and their entourage always need to think about how to best spend the glycogen budget.

Now, 320w for an hour costs about 1150kJ. Some of it will be muscle glycogen. It simply needs to be replenished, especially if one is planning to do some intensity the following days. Some of the expenditure can be covered by on the bike nutrition, but not all.

Multiply the expenditure by 4-5hrs a day, and all I can say is bon appetit, because you need to train tomorrow too. 5-6000kJ is no joke to recover from especially on a daily basis. It's basically GT mountain stages or monument level of expenditure, only distributed more evenly because of the constant power design.

Yeah, Pog is able to do 5 hours at this level but energy expenditure would probably be too big to sustain it day in day out (and make progress at the same time). I guess that (in terms of volume) he does this kind of efforts (or bigger) only sometimes to simulate harder races (still, they are not constant but instead include Z4 intervals as well as some recovery periods).

 

[Notarobot]

How is it that nobody (journalists, ex-riders) asks questions about Matxin en Gianetti?
If I was a good journalist, I would ask the UCI why they are allowed? They discredited the sport for decades.