Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[Red Rick]

I think kryzsztof's numbers are quite correct in a static setting. Surely Pog will have the so called lower threshold around those levels. Wva once reported his lower threshold around 350w, though he is heavier and carefully emphasized that they only did 20min chunks every hour because of the metabolic demands. So the plausibility of training constantly in that range is dictated by multiple factors.

For one, glycogen expenditure and replenishment is also a constraint. It is rate limited, which means that simply eating more carbs will not do all of the tricks. Riders and their entourage always need to think about how to best spend the glycogen budget.

Now, 320w for an hour costs about 1150kJ. Some of it will be muscle glycogen. It simply needs to be replenished, especially if one is planning to do some intensity the following days. Some of the expenditure can be covered by on the bike nutrition, but not all.

Multiply the expenditure by 4-5hrs a day, and all I can say is bon appetit, because you need to train tomorrow too. 5-6000kJ is no joke to recover from especially on a daily basis. It's basically GT mountain stages or monument level of expenditure, only distributed more evenly because of the constant power design.

Tis actually an interesting thing - zone 2 is what we are told we can maintain for hours and hours, yet it's defined by a lactate level, and then top pro's have such physiology that even at those low lactate levels they burn through fuels too quickly.

 

[vwpe]

No, he is not. You can say that 273747 times everyday, and will still not be true, because he wasn't "so much better than everyone else" in the previous seasons.

If you are not so much better than the others in the previous seasons, and suddendly you are so much better, then something is really wrong, and the history of cycling tell us, this will finish in a bad way for everybody.

Yes he was he just broke his wrist then he wasnt why is it hard to be objective? He beat everyone with ease up untill he broke his wrist?every single race. Your logic is really bent on a certain outcome and not objective.

 

[Peyroteo94]

No, he is not. You can say that 273747 times everyday, and will still not be true, because he wasn't "so much better than everyone else" in the previous seasons.

If you are not so much better than the others in the previous seasons, and suddendly you are so much better, then something is really wrong, and the history of cycling tell us, this will finish in a bad way for everybody.

And you can say 273747 times this will finish in a bad way for everybody and will still not be true. And yes, this season showed he is so much better than others. You may not accept but a lot of riders have the same opinion as me.

 

[Peyroteo94]

I think kryzsztof's numbers are quite correct in a static setting. Surely Pog will have the so called lower threshold around those levels. Wva once reported his lower threshold around 350w, though he is heavier and carefully emphasized that they only did 20min chunks every hour because of the metabolic demands. So the plausibility of training constantly in that range is dictated by multiple factors.

For one, glycogen expenditure and replenishment is also a constraint. It is rate limited, which means that simply eating more carbs will not do all of the tricks. Riders and their entourage always need to think about how to best spend the glycogen budget.

Now, 320w for an hour costs about 1150kJ. Some of it will be muscle glycogen. It simply needs to be replenished, especially if one is planning to do some intensity the following days. Some of the expenditure can be covered by on the bike nutrition, but not all.

Multiply the expenditure by 4-5hrs a day, and all I can say is bon appetit, because you need to train tomorrow too. 5-6000kJ is no joke to recover from especially on a daily basis. It's basically GT mountain stages or monument level of expenditure, only distributed more evenly because of the constant power design.

There is when blood doping is useful.

 

[vwpe]

No, he is not. You can say that 273747 times everyday, and will still not be true, because he wasn't "so much better than everyone else" in the previous seasons.

If you are not so much better than the others in the previous seasons, and suddendly you are so much better, then something is really wrong, and the history of cycling tell us, this will finish in a bad way for everybody.

Pogacar wasnt the best previous seasons? Thats a first. No need to say it even, I think everyone who has watched the races last months can agree what has accured, how he has won I think its a understatement how much better he is than everyone and hardly a debate? That should be a given on the premise of this thread and discsussion around that not if he is better than everyone thats a fact. But if you have watched this and concluded its close thats your opinion.

I wonder what requires to be alot better than everyone else if this isnt it though hehe. I love the objectivity here it gives everything else we can discuss here so much credibility

 

[vwpe]

And you can say 273747 times this will finish in a bad way for everybody and will still not be true. And yes, this season showed he is so much better than others. You may not accept but a lot of riders have the same opinion as me.

alot of riders? Every single one including every SD and 99.99% of people who have watched what we just have watched i think that goes
without saying. Riders are mostly refering pogacar to the best of all time not if he is better than everyone today.. Really low thing to discuss and not based on reality.

Didnt it go from Pogacar would never win a GT again cause he broke his wrist to now the sport is ruined really fast for some? Just funny to me how that can be the case for some few. Facts and objectivity are a precious thing and that also make the topics around wether or not what they use more merrit.

 

[Extinction]

Pogacar wasnt the best previous seasons? Thats a first. No need to say it even, I think everyone who has watched the races last months can agree what has accured, how he has won I think its a understatement how much better he is than everyone and hardly a debate? That should be a given on the premise of this thread and discsussion around that not if he is better than everyone thats a fact. But if you have watched this and concluded its close thats your opinion.

I wonder what requires to be alot better than everyone else if this isnt it though hehe. I love the objectivity here it gives everything else we can discuss here so much credibility

I think you have to consider that he was the best before, except in the Tour the previous two years. He wasn't dropping everybody else a hundred kms out and cruising in after winning Giro and Tour, plus everything else he won, in such devestating fashion until this season. Having broken his wrist explains a less prolific Tour last year, but then to do what he did this season remains a mystery, even by his standards. Under the tutelage of Gianetti-Matxin the entire affair smells afoul.

 

[Froome]

I think you have to consider that he was the best before, except in the Tour the previous two years. He wasn't dropping everybody else a hundred kms out and cruising in after winning Giro and Tour, plus everything else he won, in such devestating fashion until this season. Having broken his wrist explains a less prolific Tour last year, but then to do what he did this season remains a mystery, even by his standards. Under the tutelage of Gianetti-Matxin the entire affair smells afoul.

It's been really hard for some people to understand that. I didn't even said he wasn't the best in the previous years.

What i said is that, the gap in every race wasn't like this, and in some races he lost.

Let's take an example.


He was winning Il Lombardia finish along Mas, now he is winning Il Lombardia with a gap of 3 min and half to the best time trialist in the world.

 

[dr.eve]

And you can say 273747 times this will finish in a bad way for everybody and will still not be true. And yes, this season showed he is so much better than others. You may not accept but a lot of riders have the same opinion as me.

Good for you that a lot of riders share your opinion, why wouldnt they?

And yes Pogi has shown he is much better than the rest, in a league of his own. I just think we do not know at all why he is so much better, and I doubt the unknown part is something Pogi likes us to know. That is just my opinion and I do not care if it is shared or not by a lot of riders.

 

[Raest]

No, he is not. You can say that 273747 times everyday, and will still not be true, because he wasn't "so much better than everyone else" in the previous seasons.

If you are not so much better than the others in the previous seasons, and suddendly you are so much better, then something is really wrong, and the history of cycling tell us, this will finish in a bad way for everybody.

Pogacar wasnt the best previous seasons? Thats a first. No need to say it even, I think everyone who has watched the races last months can agree what has accured, how he has won I think its a understatement how much better he is than everyone and hardly a debate? That should be a given on the premise of this thread and discsussion around that not if he is better than everyone thats a fact. But if you have watched this and concluded its close thats your opinion.

I wonder what requires to be alot better than everyone else if this isnt it though hehe. I love the objectivity here it gives everything else we can discuss here so much credibility

The bolded part is where the rest of your post went wrong. Because the post to which you replied never claimed that he wasn't the best. Merely that he wasn't so much better than everyone else to the point where he now wins every race 80 km out. Riders have been saying since 2020 that Pogacar is the best cyclist. Vingegaard has said as much. I would think most fans have said as much. That's not disputed, which makes the point you are making moot.
However, what many people are saying (and I am sure many riders are saying it too, just not publicly) is how he became so much better than anyone else within 8 months. It's like he is using (an) extra gear (pun intended)

 

[Extinction]

Watched the rather looong interview of Armstrong by Bill Maher. At approx 1:14:30 Armstrong says the drug (EPO) was quote "the rocket fuel that changed not only our sport, but all endurance sports", and further "a drug that is wildly beneficial" both for top end performance and rercovery giving an increase of "10%"; and now we are to believe Teddy is just so much faster on talent alone? With Gianetti-Matxin behind the scenes? Come on.

View: https://youtu.be/rlDKKez4q7o?si=8l09UgWYPxvhnFUq

 

[E_F_]

Watched the rather looong interview of Armstrong by Bill Maher. At approx 1:14:30 Armstrong says the drug (EPO) was quote "the rocket fuel that changed not only our sport, but all endurance sports", and further "a drug that is wildly beneficial" both for top end performance and rercovery giving an increase of "10%"; and now we are to believe Teddy is just so much faster on talent alone? With Gianetti-Matxin behind the scenes? Come on.

View: https://youtu.be/rlDKKez4q7o?si=8l09UgWYPxvhnFUq

This is EPO, probably in the days when they didn't have a test, and I don't think they've found a way to macro-dose again.

 

[Extinction]

This is EPO, probably in the days when they didn't have a test, and I don't think they've found a way to macro-dose again.

The point is that Tadej, and not only him, are now going much faster than those of the "EPO era". It's simply not credible. The drug is too powerful to compensate with performance science clean. I'm sorry. Someone, a little fish naturally, was recently busted for EPO, so it's still circulating. Although I'm sure the likes of UAE are well beyond it.

 

[TrekCyclist]

and further "a drug that is wildly beneficial" both for top end performance and rercovery

The last point is very important. To be able to do extended high intensity training, several times a week.
And, of course, also if one intends not only to peak in July, but to be in top shape from March - October, doing several GTs as well as monuments.

 

[E_F_]

Although I'm sure the likes of UAE are well beyond it.

That was what I meant.

 

[peterfin]

I think think this whole discussion will spread to the media and those with the means to investigate. UAE has opened Pandora's box by being too greedy. Pogacar is their Optimus Prime with the ideal characteristics to win everywhere race but his achilles heel is that he is also too instinctive. He has exposed the cheating by not dosing his efforts.

 

[Red Rick]

One thing I do wonder is if there's peptides that upregulate the formation of mitochondria an other intracellular machinery for fat and carbohydrate metabolization how much effect that's gonna have on capacity to consume oxygen. From my understanding, diffusion goes passively it should be gradient based and therefor increasing use intracullarly you'll consume more oxygen even with the same red blood cell mass.

 

[Nick2413]

One thing I do wonder is if there's peptides that upregulate the formation of mitochondria an other intracellular machinery for fat and carbohydrate metabolization how much effect that's gonna have on capacity to consume oxygen. From my understanding, diffusion goes passively it should be gradient based and therefor increasing use intracullarly you'll consume more oxygen even with the same red blood cell mass.

By the latter part, you mean there is already enough blood but it’s just not getting used because the mitochondria etc is maxed out in the absence of doping?

 

[Red Rick]

By the latter part, you mean there is already enough blood but it’s just not getting used because the mitochondria etc is maxed out in the absence of doping?

If it's an equilibrium state you can either increase oxygen or the blood or use more oxygen in the cells, and gas exchange will improve in both ways.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Anyone know what's up with Pogacar blowing his nose every 3 seconds when he's going full gas? Might be personally responsible for 95% of hygiene violations in peloton

When he goes full gas the peleton is immediately 1 km behind so no violations.

 

[Nick2413]

I’ve always assumed the nose blowing is related to whatever legal stimulants/supplements he’s taking. He’s the only one I see doing it constantly though, and always when the race is on.

Decongestants are noted for causing drug-induced rhinitis. Decongestants are generally stimulants (phenylephrine, ephedrine etc), not sure what all is and isn’t legal.

 

[Casual cyclist]

I’ve mentioned it already, but I think it just did not register sufficiently in most participants’ minds. So, I will try to say it again in a more focused way. “The Guardian” (one of the more prominent British/global media outlets) article by an award-winning sportswriter (Jonathan Liew) really tells any reasonably attentive reader all there is to know about this ‘Pogi miracle’. (Thanks to Rechtschreibfehler for bringing this article to my and everybody else’s attention.)

The article begins with a standard somewhat ornate description of how the WCRR progressed with an emphasis on Pog’s “suicidal” attack and Matty’s and Remmy’s corresponding evaluations of said attack as just that: suicidal. Then the author goes on recalling that equally suicidal (but not really, as we know) 80k solo in Strade earlier this year accompanying that by a standard wordy ‘blah-blah’ about “mind games”, “thespian flourish” and “spidey sense” which sounds a bit like an exercise in using SAT words in sentences.

But all that – along with the next paragraph mentioning the old Eddy’s and the young Remmy ‘s reactions to Pog’s “annus mirabilis”– is just an introduction that can be safely omitted by a reader keen on getting at the true meaning – the real core – of this remarkable article. And there it comes, with a small introduction of its own. The said introduction gently eases the reader into the punchline thereby masquerading the latter just enough to keep the general tone of the article not far from eulogical that seems to be the standard of the moment.

It goes as follows: “The story of cycling is a book that burns its believers on a serial scale, and so most dedicated followers exist in a kind of conditional incredulity: the more unbelievable it becomes, the more desperately we need to believe in it.” Put in simple terms, this just means that miracles like that have long been the norm in pro cycling, and really nothing that extraordinary has just happened. Those “unbelievable” (read: impossible for rational folks to believe in, so that some “desperation” is sorely needed for any belief to happen) rides we witnessed throughout this season should not make anyone all that worked up.

And the punchline itself – ready to meet the duly prepared reader – resides in the next paragraph that just straight-up likens the current version of pro cycling to …pro wrestling, the infamous WWE. The only difference between the two now, according to Liew, lies simply in the mode of the “artifice” development: in pro wrestling the audience submits to said artifice at the outset, and in pro cycling circa 2024, the artifice is “almost assembled piecemeal.” Why the difference, one may wonder. Well, at this point, it is not hard to guess: it is due simply to the relative newness of the pro cycling version of the show, compared to that of the pro wrestling one. The latter became what it is a long time ago. Everything else, according to the punchline paragraph of the article, is pretty much the same.

So, there we have it. Pro cycling now is a version of WWE and should be watched as such. Having said that much – and it is a lot to say, make no mistake – the author then gradually winds it down, again, to avoid straying too far from the required tone and to explain why such WWE-fication of pro cycling might not be such a bad thing after all.

First, he plays down the newness of the situation: “Doubtless there will be accusations and aspersions flung at him, as there have been all year, as they were at the last guy, and the next guy.” Yeah, it is nothing new: it’s been like that before, as the reference to the “last guy” unequivocally implies. Then the explanation of how the new show ought to be viewed is given. To begin with, one must stop trying “to reduce Pogacar to a soup of numbers and chemicals”, i.e. treating him like a traditional competitive athlete who is supposed to win or lose by use of his muscle power alone, preferably not enhanced in illegal ways (even though the latter almost always ends up being too much to ask). That would be, folks, “the narrowest and most boring way of appreciating him; the most boring way of appreciating sport.” Moreover, such “cynicism” is doomed to be “based on a bare minimum of hard facts” (i.e. those non-believing cynics better stop counting on ever obtaining any direct incriminating evidence – the system design is sufficiently tight for that).

And finally comes the conclusion accompanied by another bit of downplaying the main message: “Perhaps the reality is that around every great athlete grow two fictions: an elegant and an inelegant version.” Again, we see a reference to every great athlete (nothing new), but, at the same time, the above sentence starts with the hypothetical “perhaps”, i.e. it could well be that it is really nothing like that, and those “two fictions” is a new phenomenon, a transitional phase of sorts from a traditional sport with elements of a show to a pure show with a sporting theme. The first “fiction” is the traditionalist one, the way of thinking of the “old guard” of fans used to sporting competition on an equal footing. It is labeled “profane and fearful”, but, simply put, it is just misplaced by attempting to view an esthetic-centered show as a pure sporting competition. The second “fiction” is the intended one, pleasant and positive, embodying “a beauty beyond corruption, a hope beyond futility, a wonder beyond cynicism.” In a nutshell, one is expected to suspend any disbelief, sit back, relax and enjoy the show.

P.S. Why was cycling chosen to undergo such a transformation? Well, it is very popular in Europe, it takes place outside and thus can attract large numbers of live viewers, but, perhaps most importantly, it involves some relatively sophisticated technical equipment – the bikes themselves. And with the advent of brushless li-ion (or lipo) technology in the 90’s (and with the bikes’ internal volume growing considerably at the same time with the switch to carbon fiber) the temptation to “enhance” the show must have grown past the critical point.

 

[ColonelKidneyBeans]

One thing I do wonder is if there's peptides that upregulate the formation of mitochondria an other intracellular machinery for fat and carbohydrate metabolization how much effect that's gonna have on capacity to consume oxygen. From my understanding, diffusion goes passively it should be gradient based and therefor increasing use intracullarly you'll consume more oxygen even with the same red blood cell mass.

You raise an interesting point, oxygen consumption is thought to be "supply bound" at high intensities in normal individuals afaik, but what we are witnessing is anything but and our understanding of the final step of oxygen transport is still lacking.

 

[Peyroteo94]

Good for you that a lot of riders share your opinion, why wouldnt they?

And yes Pogi has shown he is much better than the rest, in a league of his own. I just think we do not know at all why he is so much better, and I doubt the unknown part is something Pogi likes us to know. That is just my opinion and I do not care if it is shared or not by a lot of riders.

I would love to know what he is taking right now. He seems the only one to have a special doping program in UAE or he really is way more talented (e.g. better responder, copying better fatigue resistance, etc). AFAIK, LA and all his teammates were on the same doping program so this huge leap in Pogacar's performance is weird. I still believe we are back to EPO era but it is combined with something new on the menu. Climbing records are getting beaten very easily and science was advanced in the 90's/ early 00's

 

[Extinction]

I’ve mentioned it already, but I think it just did not register sufficiently in most participants’ minds. So, I will try to say it again in a more focused way. “The Guardian” (one of the more prominent British/global media outlets) article by an award-winning sportswriter (Jonathan Liew) really tells any reasonably attentive reader all there is to know about this ‘Pogi miracle’. (Thanks to Rechtschreibfehler for bringing this article to my and everybody else’s attention.)

The article begins with a standard somewhat ornate description of how the WCRR progressed with an emphasis on Pog’s “suicidal” attack and Matty’s and Remmy’s corresponding evaluations of said attack as just that: suicidal. Then the author goes on recalling that equally suicidal (but not really, as we know) 80k solo in Strade earlier this year accompanying that by a standard wordy ‘blah-blah’ about “mind games”, “thespian flourish” and “spidey sense” which sounds a bit like an exercise in using SAT words in sentences.

But all that – along with the next paragraph mentioning the old Eddy’s and the young Remmy ‘s reactions to Pog’s “annus mirabilis”– is just an introduction that can be safely omitted by a reader keen on getting at the true meaning – the real core – of this remarkable article. And there it comes, with a small introduction of its own. The said introduction gently eases the reader into the punchline thereby masquerading the latter just enough to keep the general tone of the article not far from eulogical that seems to be the standard of the moment.

It goes as follows: “The story of cycling is a book that burns its believers on a serial scale, and so most dedicated followers exist in a kind of conditional incredulity: the more unbelievable it becomes, the more desperately we need to believe in it.” Put in simple terms, this just means that miracles like that have long been the norm in pro cycling, and really nothing that extraordinary has just happened. Those “unbelievable” (read: impossible for rational folks to believe in, so that some “desperation” is sorely needed for any belief to happen) rides we witnessed throughout this season should not make anyone all that worked up.

And the punchline itself – ready to meet the duly prepared reader – resides in the next paragraph that just straight-up likens the current version of pro cycling to …pro wrestling, the infamous WWE. The only difference between the two now, according to Liew, lies simply in the mode of the “artifice” development: in pro wrestling the audience submits to said artifice at the outset, and in pro cycling circa 2024, the artifice is “almost assembled piecemeal.” Why the difference, one may wonder. Well, at this point, it is not hard to guess: it is due simply to the relative newness of the pro cycling version of the show, compared to that of the pro wrestling one. The latter became what it is a long time ago. Everything else, according to the punchline paragraph of the article, is pretty much the same.

So, there we have it. Pro cycling now is a version of WWE and should be watched as such. Having said that much – and it is a lot to say, make no mistake – the author then gradually winds it down, again, to avoid straying too far from the required tone and to explain why such WWE-fication of pro cycling might not be such a bad thing after all.

First, he plays down the newness of the situation: “Doubtless there will be accusations and aspersions flung at him, as there have been all year, as they were at the last guy, and the next guy.” Yeah, it is nothing new: it’s been like that before, as the reference to the “last guy” unequivocally implies. Then the explanation of how the new show ought to be viewed is given. To begin with, one must stop trying “to reduce Pogacar to a soup of numbers and chemicals”, i.e. treating him like a traditional competitive athlete who is supposed to win or lose by use of his muscle power alone, preferably not enhanced in illegal ways (even though the latter almost always ends up being too much to ask). That would be, folks, “the narrowest and most boring way of appreciating him; the most boring way of appreciating sport.” Moreover, such “cynicism” is doomed to be “based on a bare minimum of hard facts” (i.e. those non-believing cynics better stop counting on ever obtaining any direct incriminating evidence – the system design is sufficiently tight for that).

And finally comes the conclusion accompanied by another bit of downplaying the main message: “Perhaps the reality is that around every great athlete grow two fictions: an elegant and an inelegant version.” Again, we see a reference to every great athlete (nothing new), but, at the same time, the above sentence starts with the hypothetical “perhaps”, i.e. it could well be that it is really nothing like that, and those “two fictions” is a new phenomenon, a transitional phase of sorts from a traditional sport with elements of a show to a pure show with a sporting theme. The first “fiction” is the traditionalist one, the way of thinking of the “old guard” of fans used to sporting competition on an equal footing. It is labeled “profane and fearful”, but, simply put, it is just misplaced by attempting to view an esthetic-centered show as a pure sporting competition. The second “fiction” is the intended one, pleasant and positive, embodying “a beauty beyond corruption, a hope beyond futility, a wonder beyond cynicism.” In a nutshell, one is expected to suspend any disbelief, sit back, relax and enjoy the show.

P.S. Why was cycling chosen to undergo such a transformation? Well, it is very popular in Europe, it takes place outside and thus can attract large numbers of live viewers, but, perhaps most importantly, it involves some relatively sophisticated technical equipment – the bikes themselves. And with the advent of brushless li-ion (or lipo) technology in the 90’s (and with the bikes’ internal volume growing considerably at the same time with the switch to carbon fiber) the temptation to “enhance” the show must have grown past the critical point.

Well, I feel sorry for those that don't believe in miracles.