Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[Casual cyclist]

all while pulling the best climbing perf ever on Plateau on a warm July afternoon

That was this year when they appeared to have switched to a distributed EM propulsion system (located in the curved seat tube hugging the rear wheel) that can dissipate heat better and operate virtually silently compared to traditional cylindrical brushless motors.

 

[Unchained]

Yes. Those small brushless motors pack some surprising for their size punch. But that 700W is max power that, if used constantly, overheats the small motor in no time. When I was having fun with that 1:10 RC truck, I carried a small IR thermometer in my pocket, checking the motor temperature regularly. On the other hand, if several dozen watts is all you need, that's what the controller is for, just like a throttle pedal in a car. For example, you have no difficulty driving your 300 hp car at 30mph that demands less than 10 hp of steady power. For brushless, if you run them at a fraction of maximum power, temperature is much easier to manage. Cold or rainy weather helps in that as well, by the way, correlating well with the common in the last few years observation that "Pogi likes cold". Speaking of the latter, by the looks of his no-sweat performances during this last year, he partook of significantly more than 20-30 watts of electron power at times.

Absolutely insane, unfounded and silly to give yourself story telling ability that Pogacar had 20-30 watts of assistance from a motor. Didn't happen, unproven BS.
My bike is a small-medium. More than 60cm of internal cavity space from seat clamp device to top of bottom bracket shell, downtube- bottom bracket junction is @1-2 centimeters more narrow than bottom bracket shell, pretty common. Here's the old motor design @8-10 year old technology. Both motors and batteries have advanced since then. So to be clear, I think that there is available space in modern bike design to house a battery and a motor that would benefit a rider if they choose to cheat. So there is no debate, I think the technology exists and I think people use it.

View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Fbg4BjZna4Y&pp=ygUcRWxlY3RyaWMgYmlrZSBtb3RvciBjaGVhdGluZw%3D%3D

I don't think Pogacar uses illegal bike technology ,ie, electric motors to win bike races. And in reality, Pogacar and his bicycle(s) are subjected to more attention and scrutiny than anyone else, hardly see opportunities to swap out bikes while on camera constantly and in the case of Pogacar going to post race bike inspection for under weight check, illegal parts, doping control, press conferences and podium and constantly photographs and video. The idea that he is doing something in plain sight is loony

 

[Casual cyclist]

"Absolutely insane, unfounded and silly to give yourself story telling ability that Pogacar had 20-30 watts of assistance from a motor. Didn't happen, unproven BS."

Just emotions, sir, only emotions.

"My bike is a small-medium. More than 60cm of internal cavity space from seat clamp device to top of bottom bracket shell, downtube- bottom bracket junction is @1-2 centimeters more narrow than bottom bracket shell, pretty common. Here's the old motor design @8-10 year old technology. Both motors and batteries have advanced since then. So to be clear, I think that there is available space in modern bike design to house a battery and a motor that would benefit a rider if they choose to cheat. So there is no debate, I think the technology exists and I think people use it."

Of course, it has existed for a while now. Nobody doubts it.

"I don't think Pogacar uses illegal bike technology ,ie, electric motors to win bike races. And in reality, Pogacar and his bicycle(s) are subjected to more attention and scrutiny than anyone else, hardly see opportunities to swap out bikes while on camera constantly and in the case of Pogacar going to post race bike inspection for under weight check, illegal parts, doping control, press conferences and podium and constantly photographs and video. The idea that he is doing something in plain sight is loony."

Those opportunities being hard to see (for you) does not mean they do not exist. Press conferences, podiums and all that silly ado, in fact, is just good distraction of attention from any little "secret" hidden in the bike. Some "cooperation" from those responsible for bike testing is clearly necessary, but we have recently discussed the bio of the main guy there. Let's just say he looks pretty cooperative.

P.S. The quoting function does not seem to be working properly at the moment. So I apologize for the possible lack of clarity. The text in quotes here is from the recent post of the participant Unchained.

 

[E_F_]

Obviously if you keeep on pulling apart a bike with a motor in it you'll find the motor. But I don't trust that the bikes are pulled apart. I've even read that they very rarely are. Also; I don't remember seeing them remove the wheels in the video they did. It also looked like Campy hadn't experienced it before.

I'm not convinced that a motor couldn't be concealed in x-ray photography.

Neither am I entirely convinced that the bikes can't be swapped after the races, before testing. Or that a motor couldn't be removed. Or indeed that a motor couldn't be in the rear wheel, which is easily swapped out.

The fact that Pogacar ran away from the UCI official after Worlds, and his team's staffers didn't let a different UCI official take his bike, suggests to me that there's space for trickery - and also that the UCI is quite lenient; where is the acknowledgement of this episode? Where's the punishment for not complying with protocol?

And there's a simple problem to all this. If the UCI discovered that Pogacar was using a motor, I just don't believe they would go public with it - however pissed they may be.

 

[E_F_]

How do you even detect a tiny motor in the rear hub? With the battery also inside the hub.

(I don't know much about bike mechanics, but if I don't get an explanation, how am I going to be conviced, that it's impossible?)



Also: It doesn't seem strange to me that Pogacar could beat the times of dopers from the era of free EPO use with modern doping techniques in and of itself. What makes me think a motor is more likely than not is the fact that he doesn't break a sweat, he isn't gasping for air. It's the ease with which he does it. The number of times a year he does it. The different types of races in which he does it. You can make the human body to do a lot with doping, but the human body still has to do it.


There's also the simple fact that his accelerations look weird. (Like those from back when there's a lot of reasons to believe motor-doping took place).

 

[VayaVayaVaya]

Obviously if you keeep on pulling apart a bike with a motor in it you'll find the motor. But I don't trust that the bikes are pulled apart. I've even read that they very rarely are. Also; I don't remember seeing them removethe wheels in the video they did. It also looked like that Campy hadn't experienced it before.

I'm not convinced that a motor couldn't be concealed in x-ray photography.

Neither am I entirely convinced that the bikes can't be swapped after the races, before testing. Or that a motor couldn't be removed. Or indeed that a motor couldn't be in the rear wheel, which is easily swapped

The fact that Pogacar ran away from the UCI official after Worlds, and his team's staffers didn't let a different UCI official take his bike, suggests to me that there's space for trickery - and also that the UCI is quite lenient; where is the acknowledgement of this episode? Where's the punishment for not complying with protocol?

And there's a simple problem to all this. If the UCI discovered that Pogacar was using a motor, I just don't believe they would go public with it - however pissed they may be.

I haven’t heard this. What’s the story and source?

 

[YellowSocks]

I haven’t heard this. What’s the story and source?

You can watch it online, it took place just after the finish of the World Championship (the video can be found online by searching a little). When Pogi kisses Urska in a close-up, don't get carried away by the romance but look at the bottom right of the screen. As soon as the image switches to a wide shot, you'll see a strange scene happening around his bike.

We should ask Mou about it. He must know.

 

[Froome]

You can watch it online, it took place just after the finish of the World Championship (the video can be found online by searching a little). When Pogi kisses Urska in a close-up, don't get carried away by the romance but look at the bottom right of the screen. As soon as the image switches to a wide shot, you'll see a strange scene happening around his bike.

We should ask Mou about it. He must know.

Can you put the video here? I am curious, i didn’t find the video.

 

[samhocking]

How do you even detect a tiny motor in the rear hub? With the battery also inside the hub.

(I don't know much about bike mechanics, but if I don't get an explanation, how am I going to be conviced, that it's impossible?)



Also: It doesn't seem strange to me that Pogacar could beat the times of dopers from the era of free EPO use with modern doping techniques in and of itself. What makes me think a motor is more likely than not is the fact that he doesn't break a sweat, he isn't gasping for air. It's the ease with which he does it. The number of times a year he does it. The different types of races in which he does it. You can make the human body to do a lot with doping, but the human body still has to do it.


There's also the simple fact that his accelerations look weird. (Like those from back when there's a lot of reasons to believe motor-doping took place).

Pretty simple really. Any mobile communication device such as a phone or tablet operates within the electromagnetic spectrum and so is designed to pickup very fine EMF from telecom masts and so a permanent magnet or electro magnet emission, however small is easily detectable with one. This is why they are used to detect motors by UCI as much as people think it's useless, it really isn't, a tablet is not far removed from the very equipment used to measure EMF in fact.

For people like Stefan Varjas claiming electro magnetic coils can be placed in deep section rims, this would require the rim to pass within 0.5mm of the frame in order to produce any useable force because force is inversely proportional to distance between rim and frame. There's no current UCI approved frame on the market that could work for such a motor in the rim and frame, so there's no wheel motors in the peloton possible. Even if there was such a frame, we know the air gap needs to be 0.2 to 0.5mm in any motor, at best a frame with a layer of carbon and wheel rim the same would leave a 3-5mm air gap and would produce so little torque at that air gap, it wouldn't offer anything other than perhaps it could just about spin the weight of itself in the rim. It would be so inefficient it just wouldn't be worth it. A rear wheel deflects over 10mm too when racing, so it simply wouldn't be a practical form of motor in a bicycle and if it was, would be very obvious as you'd hear the rim rubbing the frame every time the rider accelerated.

For people claiming motors can be in the rear hubs, I've not seen any team using custom oversized rear hubs. A highly optimised and weight-reduced OEM hub like a Dura-Ace, Bora, Zip etc literally has no void left inside to build a hub motor, place PMs, stators, coils, wiring etc and even if there was, you would have to include the axle as part of the design and so rear wheel changes would not be possible on live TV or in front of fans as it would be obvious as you connect up the replacement. I suppose theoretically, you could place a wireless motor controller, batteries and charging inside the rim and somehow transfer the 3-phase wiring needed for smooth torque electro magnetic type motors through the spokes to the hub, but then you've got compromised wheel that now also has to handle increased weight and load over the standard OEM wheel so no doubt would see reliability issues negating any advantage from the motor. Obviously if you used a permanent magnet DC design it would be easy to detect with a tablet and all are very noisy.

There are some very effective EMF shield materials like Mu-Metal and MagnoShield that can shield EMF in PM or EM motor designs, but there would be quite a bit of weight added to such a system. A standard, optimally designed motor, e.g. 50-100mm diameter (bigger than any hub other than powertab or Sturmey Archer hubs) would require about 0.4kg of shielding from a mobile device at a cost of around $1000 when I last looked at market prices. LeMond does make a good point, that all you need to do is weigh the wheels to find a motor because to conceal them from UCIs tablets would leave the wheel at probably around 0.5kg heavier than a standard wheel from that same OEM manufacture. However, all of the above methods require complete complicity from the OEM manufactures, the guys and girls laying up the carbon fibre to include fixings, custom fittings/components etc and for a team and rider to have any consistent results, such relations would need to be in place across all sponsors. It just seems such a huge network of people involved from OEM design, OEM/Outsourced manufacture, mechanics, sponsors we know by now, exactly who was doping by various people in that teams/riders closed network, let alone major global sponsors and manufactures to dope with a motor.

 

[E_F_]

Can you put the video here? I am curious, i didn’t find the video.

There's a lot more to it actually, but it all happens very quickly. I wrote a frame by frame account:

Apropos; A bit of analysis of the Slovenian antics after the finish at the WCRR:

After MvdP's group crosses the line we see a distinctly dry-looking Pogster celebrating in a huddle of Team Slovenia guys, a handsome wizened looking fella hugs him and taps him on the shoulder to point him to where he has to go, while Pogi, who is honing in on a man with a massive rucksack, pays him no heed. Rucksack-man, who lets go of the Pogmobile, opens a water bottle and hands it to he who is Poggers, soon resulting in a distinctly wet appearance. Just before the metamorphosis commences we're greeted with the sudden appearance of a gentleman with UCI-logos on his clothes rather than those of NiceHash who grabs a paternal hold of the Pogical shoulders gets startled by the waterfall and, for a time, chooses to uphold social norms. Meanwhile rucksack-man hugs another staffer who was making sure the bike didn't fall to the ground, and gets a firm grip on said vehicle once more.

Following a brief look at a panting Matthew of the Pole's desperate attempt to lie down on his bike, we see that Father UCI has once again found his way to the back of Pog, which he carresses and pushes along to official duties awaiting. Pog-Man hands rucksack-man his helmet and sunnies and the entourage goes on it's merry way.

Once the action, which has once again been disrupted by MvdP - this time using his top tube to split his bum-cheeks and ball-sack respectively - the Pogimon suddenly goes barging through a wall of press photographers, and runs away from his UCI daddy towards his famed non-Olympian girlfriend, and as he embraces her he is also embraced by cameras.

On the perimeter of this manifestation of love and fame we find the devoted squire of this tale, rucksack-man, desperately seeking his beloved knight with wanton disregard for the well-bred carbon steed entrusted to his care. A new rough, unloving agent of the UCI has seized this opportunity to seize the bike. Seized by fear a private, sporting a Slovenian flag patch on his shoulder, who has come into possesion of the helmet and visor of Sir Pogacelot, scrambles around the stocky thief to regain control of the bike. A heated argument between the two ensues, the seemingly rather disinterested man, who had been holding the bike while filming the happy couple, points to the bike computer, gives his subordinate an order, resumes filming for a while until he is seemingly dragged back into the discussion, which now mainly consists of the UCI representative shouting at the man who is now holding the bike. At the same time a seemingly even more disinterested member of the press corp holding his phone up, hand in pocket, looking down notices the commotion, turns to the bike, crouches and sticks his phone right into the seat tube.

Back in the eye of the storm the UCI-Father has found his way back to his Prodigal Son and pushes him along once more. Now rucksack-man makes his trumphant return and stretches his arm across to Urska, thus seperating athlete from governing body. This is not appreciated, and rucksack-man is told as much.

I'm afraid you'll have to find a full replay of the race to watch for yourself (tiz, tiz!)

 

[E_F_]

Pretty simple really. Any mobile communication device such as a phone or tablet operates within the electromagnetic spectrum and so is designed to pickup very fine EMF from telecom masts and so a permanent magnet or electro magnet emission, however small is easily detectable with one. This is why they are used to detect motors by UCI as much as people think it's useless, it really isn't, a tablet is not far removed from the very equipment used to measure EMF in fact.

For people like Stefan Varjas claiming electro magnetic coils can be placed in deep section rims, this would require the rim to pass within 0.5mm of the frame in order to produce any useable force because force is inversely proportional to distance between rim and frame. There's no current UCI approved frame on the market that could work for such a motor in the rim and frame, so there's no wheel motors in the peloton possible. Even if there was such a frame, we know the air gap needs to be 0.2 to 0.5mm in any motor, at best a frame with a layer of carbon and wheel rim the same would leave a 3-5mm air gap and would produce so little torque at that air gap, it wouldn't offer anything other than perhaps it could just about spin the weight of itself in the rim. It would be so inefficient it just wouldn't be worth it. A rear wheel deflects over 10mm too when racing, so it simply wouldn't be a practical form of motor in a bicycle and if it was, would be very obvious as you'd hear the rim rubbing the frame every time the rider accelerated.

For people claiming motors can be in the rear hubs, I've not seen any team using custom oversized rear hubs. A highly optimised and weight-reduced OEM hub like a Dura-Ace, Bora, Zip etc literally has no void left inside to build a hub motor, place PMs, stators, coils, wiring etc and even if there was, you would have to include the axle as part of the design and so rear wheel changes would not be possible on live TV or in front of fans as it would be obvious as you connect up the replacement. I suppose theoretically, you could place a wireless motor controller, batteries and charging inside the rim and somehow transfer the 3-phase wiring needed for smooth torque electro magnetic type motors through the spokes to the hub, but then you've got compromised wheel that now also has to handle increased weight and load over the standard OEM wheel so no doubt would see reliability issues negating any advantage from the motor. Obviously if you used a permanent magnet DC design it would be easy to detect with a tablet and all are very noisy.

There are some very effective EMF shield materials like Mu-Metal and MagnoShield that can shield EMF in PM or EM motor designs, but there would be quite a bit of weight added to such a system. A standard, optimally designed motor, e.g. 50-100mm diameter (bigger than any hub other than powertab or Sturmey Archer hubs) would require about 0.4kg of shielding from a mobile device at a cost of around $1000 when I last looked at market prices. LeMond does make a good point, that all you need to do is weigh the wheels to find a motor because to conceal them from UCIs tablets would leave the wheel at probably around 0.5kg heavier than a standard wheel from that same OEM manufacture. However, all of the above methods require complete complicity from the OEM manufactures, the guys and girls laying up the carbon fibre to include fixings, custom fittings/components etc and for a team and rider to have any consistent results, such relations would need to be in place across all sponsors. It just seems such a huge network of people involved from OEM design, OEM/Outsourced manufacture, mechanics, sponsors we know by now, exactly who was doping by various people in that teams/riders closed network, let alone major global sponsors and manufactures to dope with a motor.

You obviously make a good point about there not being room for a motor in the hub.

Could you not avoid any EMF by simply turning off the device (or tapping the battery for power)? I seem to remember hearing something about the radiation simply having ceased by the time the bikes are checked (which they often weren't/aren't).

I'm also not entirely convinced that a highly skilled mechanic with a super well-equipped workshop wouldn't be able to retrofit the wheels.

 

[Casual cyclist]

Pretty simple really. Any mobile communication device such as a phone or tablet operates within the electromagnetic spectrum and so is designed to pickup very fine EMF from telecom masts and so a permanent magnet or electro magnet emission, however small is easily detectable with one. This is why they are used to detect motors by UCI as much as people think it's useless, it really isn't, a tablet is not far removed from the very equipment used to measure EMF in fact.

For people like Stefan Varjas claiming electro magnetic coils can be placed in deep section rims, this would require the rim to pass within 0.5mm of the frame in order to produce any useable force because force is inversely proportional to distance between rim and frame. There's no current UCI approved frame on the market that could work for such a motor in the rim and frame, so there's no wheel motors in the peloton possible. Even if there was such a frame, we know the air gap needs to be 0.2 to 0.5mm in any motor, at best a frame with a layer of carbon and wheel rim the same would leave a 3-5mm air gap and would produce so little torque at that air gap, it wouldn't offer anything other than perhaps it could just about spin the weight of itself in the rim. It would be so inefficient it just wouldn't be worth it. A rear wheel deflects over 10mm too when racing, so it simply wouldn't be a practical form of motor in a bicycle and if it was, would be very obvious as you'd hear the rim rubbing the frame every time the rider accelerated.

For people claiming motors can be in the rear hubs, I've not seen any team using custom oversized rear hubs. A highly optimised and weight-reduced OEM hub like a Dura-Ace, Bora, Zip etc literally has no void left inside to build a hub motor, place PMs, stators, coils, wiring etc and even if there was, you would have to include the axle as part of the design and so rear wheel changes would not be possible on live TV or in front of fans as it would be obvious as you connect up the replacement. I suppose theoretically, you could place a wireless motor controller, batteries and charging inside the rim and somehow transfer the 3-phase wiring needed for smooth torque electro magnetic type motors through the spokes to the hub, but then you've got compromised wheel that now also has to handle increased weight and load over the standard OEM wheel so no doubt would see reliability issues negating any advantage from the motor. Obviously if you used a permanent magnet DC design it would be easy to detect with a tablet and all are very noisy.

There are some very effective EMF shield materials like Mu-Metal and MagnoShield that can shield EMF in PM or EM motor designs, but there would be quite a bit of weight added to such a system. A standard, optimally designed motor, e.g. 50-100mm diameter (bigger than any hub other than powertab or Sturmey Archer hubs) would require about 0.4kg of shielding from a mobile device at a cost of around $1000 when I last looked at market prices. LeMond does make a good point, that all you need to do is weigh the wheels to find a motor because to conceal them from UCIs tablets would leave the wheel at probably around 0.5kg heavier than a standard wheel from that same OEM manufacture. However, all of the above methods require complete complicity from the OEM manufactures, the guys and girls laying up the carbon fibre to include fixings, custom fittings/components etc and for a team and rider to have any consistent results, such relations would need to be in place across all sponsors. It just seems such a huge network of people involved from OEM design, OEM/Outsourced manufacture, mechanics, sponsors we know by now, exactly who was doping by various people in that teams/riders closed network, let alone major global sponsors and manufactures to dope with a motor.

Well. I am not an expert in low-power hidden bike motors, but I have a PhD in physics. So let's do some of those "back of an envelope" calculations physicists like to talk about. Let's say we are on typical long TDF climb with the linear speed in 20 to 25 km/h or, in SI units, 5.5 to 7 m/s range. That equates to roughly about 3 rotations of the wheel per second which, in turn, amounts to the wheel angular speed of around 20 radians per second (in SI units). Say, our goal is to provide a steady modest extra 50 watts of power at the wheel. For that, we will need 50/20 = 2.5 Newton meters of torque, but let's say 3 (for about 60 watts at the wheel). How much linear force would be needed for that? The wheel radius is pretty close to 1/3 of a meter, so we will require 3*3=9 Newtons worth of force. Lets round it a bit up to 10. How much of force is 10 Newtons? That's the force needed to keep about 1kg or close to 2 lbs worth of mass suspended in typical Earth gravity. Now do this little experiment. Take a small 2 lbs dumbbell, make a small loop and suspend it from your finger. Now you can try doing little "curls" with it. Find out that even your pinky is strong enough for that. That's how much force at the rim is needed. Now can an EM system providing this much force be realistically built? My overall experience and intuition say yes. Stefan Varjas who knows a thing or two about hidden motors agrees. Having said that, I get your point of needing a small gap between the down tube and the coils in the wheel for such a system to be efficient, To achieve such a gap, I see no reason to not embed those coils in the tire. That would amount to a highly custom one-off system, obviously. But. on the other hand, this is not the proverbial rocket science where, for example, even a trillion dollar investment now would not make a successful manned expedition to the Moon and back possible at the currently achieved level of intelligence (i.e science and technology). Here, even a paltry million would go a long way, and UAE has many of those at their disposal, Finally, let us note that extra wheel deflection in any direction due to this much force would be negligible. Besides the force being pinky-finger weak, none of it would be applied in the lateral direction where the only meaningful deflection could possibly happen.

Speaking of rear hub motors, I currently do not think they use those, but I would not rule out such possibility as well. Remember, we are not talking a lot of power even at the peak. I do not think Pog has more than 200 watts max. Finally, a good old brushless bottom bracket motor with some improved cooling is also a possibility. It is really hard to say for sure without having a candid conversation with an UAE mechanic or somebody else in the know.

I do not think that EM radiation is a big problem now with everybody's bike carrying multiple battery powered devices, from shifters to transmitters/receivers. So much so that there was a recent article on Cycling news about some malicious tampering with team-rider communications on the part of rival teams. There must be so much EM radiation now associated just with 100% "honest" bikes that a bit of extra can be easily "smuggled" without anyone noticing or, in the worst case, an easy "explanation" could always be found.

As to the network of people in the know being necessarily large, this does not appear necessary as well. It comes handy that UAE owns Colnago now. Also, most people would readily keep their mouth shut for a bit of extra income (and feel special about that), would not they? But if even some of them talk, that would not go far without that talk given green light by highly monopolized media channels. Otherwise, it would be just some random guy's postings on a forum that can be easily ignored. Finally, let us note that some even well known people already did talk. For example. that same LeMond said before that motors had been used in the peloton, as I recall. He did not call names and is totally hush-hush about Pog. But that's totally understandable: he wants to keep being invited as an expert, commentator etc. and does not want to risk losing all these perks.

 

[samhocking]

When French police investigated Stafan Varjas over his motor doping claims, they released him concluding he had a penchant for telling tales and that he had limited engineering knowledge. This is why not a single working example from him has ever been shown that didn't simply resemble what he already sold off the shelf. Both of those designs from him can simply be heard when operated, no technology is needed to find them other than your eyes and ears at the side of the road or in the peloton.

As for embedding Coils in the tyre I can't see how it gets them much closer to the frame and within the gap needed between rotor and stator? And this is ignoring the challenge that when you switch from Permanent Magnet designs to Induction, you need to be working in AC, not DC of a battery, the limitation that the seat tube is only around 1/4 to 1/3 of the wheel is also a factor, the reasons all motors operate through 360 degrees is because that is most efficient. Remove 2/3 of a motor and you either have to make it 3x larger or 3x more efficient.
The biggest challenge to creating any such motor is actually the orientation of internal motor isn't ever going to be in the direction of travel. Things are easy in e.g. a drone, aeroplane, power drill, food mixer etc, things get very inefficient, bulky and less reliable as soon as that motor drive needs to be flipped 90 degrees.

 

[pastronef]

When French police investigated Stafan Varjas over his motor doping claims, they released him concluding he had a penchant for telling tales and that he had limited engineering knowledge. This is why not a single working example from him has ever been shown that didn't simply resemble what he already sold off the shelf. Both of those designs from him can simply be heard when operated, no technology is needed to find them other than your eyes and ears at the side of the road or in the peloton.

As for embedding Coils in the tyre I can't see how it gets them much closer to the frame and within the gap needed between rotor and stator? And this is ignoring the challenge that when you switch from Permanent Magnet designs to Induction, you need to be working in AC, not DC of a battery, the limitation that the seat tube is only around 1/4 to 1/3 of the wheel is also a factor, the reasons all motors operate through 360 degrees is because that is most efficient. Remove 2/3 of a motor and you either have to make it 3x larger or 3x more efficient.
The biggest challenge to creating any such motor is actually the orientation of internal motor isn't ever going to be in the direction of travel. Things are easy in e.g. a drone, aeroplane, power drill, food mixer etc, things get very inefficient, bulky and less reliable as soon as that motor drive needs to be flipped 90 degrees.

also, I remember you explaining how the powermeter readings would be falsed by a BB motor but I forgot the details...

 

[ZvitaFeltna]

Could someone explain to me how would a motor in a rear hub transmit power with removable axle. Where would that motor be fixed in place? This would be posible with rim brakes where a wheel is fixed between seatstays. Every rear hub motor i saw have a fixed rear axle which is then clamped between seatstays so that it gives motor a fixed place from where to transmit power to he wheel.

 

[samhocking]

Could someone explain to me how would a motor in a rear hub transmit power with removable axle. Where would that motor be fixed in place? This would be posible with rim brakes where a wheel is fixed between seatstays. Every rear hub motor i saw have a fixed rear axle which is then clamped between seatstays so that it gives motor a fixed place from where to transmit power to he wheel.

For PM (synchronous) type motor, the hub (rotor) would have permanent magnets around its circumference inside, and the axle (stator) would have copper windings. Since the hub (rotor) is directly connected to the wheel, the wheel rotates instead of the stator (axle). A Motor controller regulates the current to the windings and ensures the magnetic fields in the stator and rotors permanent magnets interact optimally with each revolution. This is essentially what most would consider a motor in e.g. a toy They operate on DC ie batteries.

For Induction (asynchronous motors) type motor, the hub (rotor) would be made up of a squirrel cage of laminated steel bars. The axle (stator) would contain copper windings that generate a rotating magnetic field. The motor controller creates a variable frequency and voltage supply for the stator. These operate on AC. You can generate AC from DC with an inverter.

Look at a cutaway of a typical OEM rear hub and it quickly becomes obvious hub motors, if they existed would look more like powertap hubs and the size of a large orange in diameter.

For either hub motor types you would either have to hold the batteries in the rims and transmit AC or DC power down fake spokes to the hub or take it out of the frame and then back in through the hollow stator. AC requires three cables, DC two.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

This motor stuff, it's really worrying. I don't think I've ever considered this option to be as realistic for a top rider as now (regarding Teddy).

 

[Casual cyclist]

For PM (synchronous) type motor, the hub (rotor) would have permanent magnets around its circumference inside, and the axle (stator) would have copper windings. Since the hub (rotor) is directly connected to the wheel, the wheel rotates instead of the stator (axle). A Motor controller regulates the current to the windings and ensures the magnetic fields in the stator and rotors permanent magnets interact optimally with each revolution. This is essentially what most would consider a motor in e.g. a toy They operate on DC ie batteries.

For Induction (asynchronous motors) type motor, the hub (rotor) would be made up of a squirrel cage of laminated steel bars. The axle (stator) would contain copper windings that generate a rotating magnetic field. The motor controller creates a variable frequency and voltage supply for the stator. These operate on AC. You can generate AC from DC with an inverter.

Look at a cutaway of a typical OEM rear hub and it quickly becomes obvious hub motors, if they existed would look more like powertap hubs and the size of a large orange in diameter.

For either hub motor types you would either have to hold the batteries in the rims and transmit AC or DC power down fake spokes to the hub or take it out of the frame and then back in through the hollow stator. AC requires three cables, DC two.

I agree. The rear hub, in my view, is the least likely place to house Teddy's EM propulsion system. In fact, I am certain that, if there is something there, it is very small (accounting for no more than 50W or so max power) and not the whole story, with most of his magic helper residing in the frame.

 

[E_F_]

I agree. The rear hub, in my view, is the least likely place to house Teddy's EM propulsion system. In fact, I am certain that, if there is something there, it is very small (accounting for no more than 50W or so max power) and not the whole story, with most of his magic helper residing in the frame.

Well, from the comments in this thread it seems obvious that the battery and an many components as possible would have to be in the the frame - but motor itself might be in the rear hub still? Perhaps easily removable along with the wheel?

 

[Casual cyclist]

This motor stuff, it's really worrying. I don't think I've ever considered this option to be as realistic for a top rider as now (regarding Teddy).

Recall Lance's miraculous transformation from TT and GT GC zero to sudden superhero.

 

[Extinction]

Cycling is dead. Now they're talking about Teddy doing 8 watts per chilo for 20 minutes on a team managed by Gianetti-Matxin, the overseers of Ricco and Cobo, with Arab sports washing money. It may as well be called WWA on two wheels. Pog still looks like an adolescent Richie Cunningham trying to get a date. It's absolutely ridiculous

 

[snipeheem]

Cycling is dead. Now they're talking about Teddy doing 8 watts per chilo for 20 minutes on a team managed by Gianetti-Matxin, the overseers of Ricco and Cobo, with Arab sports washing money. It may as well be called WWA on two wheels. Pog still looks like an adolescent Richie Cunningham trying to get a date. It's absolutely ridiculous

Not cycling , whole sport is dead, prob 90% pro athletes are on peds.

 

[Casual cyclist]

Cycling is dead. Now they're talking about Teddy doing 8 watts per chilo for 20 minutes on a team managed by Gianetti-Matxin, the overseers of Ricco and Cobo, with Arab sports washing money. It may as well be called WWA on two wheels. Pog still looks like an adolescent Richie Cunningham trying to get a date. It's absolutely ridiculous

Those 8 watts per kilo are entirely believable given how easily he was doing 7 and change this past season. It would only take a bit more pushing on the pedals, -- in addition to what the electrons inside his bike are providing, -- possibly breaking just a bit of sweat doing so. Speaking of WWE and similar, remember that the chap from the Guardian already filled us in on that right after the last WCRR. Coincidentally, the cycling media is already busy preparing the appropriate smoke screen. The respective buzz words now in vogue are... you guessed it: "AI" and "lots of data". There was an article here on Cyclingnews a few days ago just about that -- how now it is possible to optimize anything to oblivion, down to the last gram of porridge Teddy is going to eat (now that he finally got a bit off just diarrhea inducing gels in addition to starting to do some training intervals besides "zone 2"). What's also funny in that article is the picture of him on his TT Colnago bike sitting in that "coal miner/Lance A." position with his back at about 45 degrees to horizontal topped off with just a bit of a crouch to avoid looking 100% like an e-biker in lycra.

 

[pastronef]

Cycling is dead. Now they're talking about Teddy doing 8 watts per chilo for 20 minutes on a team managed by Gianetti-Matxin, the overseers of Ricco and Cobo, with Arab sports washing money. It may as well be called WWA on two wheels. Pog still looks like an adolescent Richie Cunningham trying to get a date. It's absolutely ridiculous

Not cycling , whole sport is dead, prob 90% pro athletes are on peds.

depends on points of view. I don't spend that much time thinking about doping while I watch a race. this weekend the European cycling season begins. last night we had Willunga at TDU, Gp Marseillaise is next Sunday. I've never felt like "procycling is dead". procycling will keep rolling on, one way or another. ok, with a bit of heavy fuel boost, it will go on

 

[Extinction]

Not cycling , whole sport is dead, prob 90% pro athletes are on peds.

Yes, but nowhere is it more visible than cycling.