Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[masking_agent]

Watch how disgusting the French media are, few days before Paris-Roubaix they release an article insinuating Pogacar is doping.

L'avenir de son équipe, le dopage, la domination de Pogacar, Paris-Roubaix... Le constat très cash de Bernaudeau sur l'état du cyclisme mondial

À quelques jours de Paris-Roubaix, Jean-René Bernaudeau, patron de l'équipe TotalEnergies, s'est longuement confié à RMC Sport. Soupçons de dopage autour de Tadej Pogacar, pistes pour améliorer le cyclisme mondial, rumeurs de partenariat entre TotalEnergies et Ineos-Grenadiers... Le dirigeant...

rmcsport.bfmtv.com

its about time another David Walsh type of person emerged .

 

[Unchained]

And this is why he won't be caught, and probably none of the other aliens. Pogacars existence somewhat seems to obscure how remarkable the development in cycling has been in performance over the last few years.
There is to much to loose for cycling to have a real interest in finding out what is going on, especially since history has shown that trying to seriously battle doping does not get you applause but a bad reputation as a sport.

So if you look at cycling cycle.. first @ hundred years it existed, nothing much, Lance, cancer, Livestrong ,yellow wristbands worldwide.. Flew too close to the sun, cycling and cyclists became an easy joke about doping, PEDs..phase 2..big investors keep seeing opportunity, can't figure out how to exploit it, monetize it..some having varying degrees of success.. Pogacar and his rivals are attracting attention.. But your theory of a complete conspiracy, thousands of people keeping a secret for years, for free, nothing, absolutely nothing in it for them.. Doesn't make sense.
As Armchair points out.. Should the media, if they know something ignore it? Again the same questions repeat across all organizations.. What's in it for them to keep the secret? Or as many here are posting, it's obvious, out in the open, but being ignored because..... None of it makes sense. When Walsh and others came to print they had numerous confirmed data sources.. Pogacar been at high pro level since 2018.. Amounts of information today compared to Armstrong era are not similar in any way.

 

[pelotonIQ]

So if a long established team manager speaks publicly about his suspicions on a major competitor in the sport, journalists should sweep it under the carpet?

You have to factor in the timing of the article and the doping insinunations before a big race as P-R to see the ill intentions behind this move.

 

[E_F_]

It's France - just about the only country on earth where doping is actually against the law. Paris-Roubaix almost is to monuments what TdF is to grand tours. Now arguably the weirdest rider in the history of cycling is coming for the second most important race (in the world) in the birthplace of professional cycling. It's their duty to insinuate what they cannot prove, but must believe.

 

[GuntherL1]

So if you look at cycling cycle.. first @ hundred years it existed, nothing much, Lance, cancer, Livestrong ,yellow wristbands worldwide.. Flew too close to the sun, cycling and cyclists became an easy joke about doping, PEDs..phase 2..big investors keep seeing opportunity, can't figure out how to exploit it, monetize it..some having varying degrees of success.. Pogacar and his rivals are attracting attention.. But your theory of a complete conspiracy, thousands of people keeping a secret for years, for free, nothing, absolutely nothing in it for them.. Doesn't make sense.
As Armchair points out.. Should the media, if they know something ignore it? Again the same questions repeat across all organizations.. What's in it for them to keep the secret? Or as many here are posting, it's obvious, out in the open, but being ignored because..... None of it makes sense. When Walsh and others came to print they had numerous confirmed data sources.. Pogacar been at high pro level since 2018.. Amounts of information today compared to Armstrong era are not similar in any way.

We're talking about an individual (Pogacar), not about organized team doping as in the Armstrong era. That's easier to cover up as fewer people are involved. What exactly doesn't make sense to you? That the press doesn't ask many questions? That's nothing new. That the UCI doesn't want to dig? That was the same in the Armstrong era. They even covered up a positive test and I understand why. The Germans stopped covering the TdF because of doping cases. Imagine what might happen if the richest team and its biggest star proved to be a fraud.
"Pogacar been at high pro level since 2018." I've heard that many times. The first three seasons of his career were nothing special. He started to excel after joining UAE. We all know what kind of prodigy Evenepoel was at the junior level, but a better comparison would be Ayuso. Look at his first three seasons. Very talented and after joining UAE, his performances are in line with his junior years.
However, I need to repeat the same question: Why do you think that the former Saunier Duval management would play fair now when they cheated every single time they had the chance with riders like Ricco, Piepoli, Cobo and Ulissi?

 

[Unchained]

We're talking about an individual (Pogacar), not about organized team doping as in the Armstrong era. That's easier to cover up as fewer people are involved. What exactly doesn't make sense to you? That the press doesn't ask many questions? That's nothing new. That the UCI doesn't want to dig? That was the same in the Armstrong era. They even covered up a positive test and I understand why. The Germans stopped covering the TdF because of doping cases. Imagine what might happen if the richest team and its biggest star proved to be a fraud.
"Pogacar been at high pro level since 2018." I've heard that many times. The first three seasons of his career were nothing special. He started to excel after joining UAE. We all know what kind of prodigy Evenepoel was at the junior level, but a better comparison would be Ayuso. Look at his first three seasons. Very talented and after joining UAE, his performances are in line with his junior years.
However, I need to repeat the same question: Why do you think that the former Saunier Duval management would play fair now when they cheated every single time they had the chance with riders like Ricco, Piepoli, Cobo and Ulissi?

Your response has to be the absolute best I have read to date!! So it's only Pogacar !! Glad that is cleared up, so all races, race officials, UCI ,law enforcement are all giving Pogacar a free pass, doping with impunity for the sake of..Pog? Bike racing? TDF, ? UAE and sponsors? I just can't figure out the business model and what is in it for the thousands of people over half a decade that have colluded to benefit Pogacar, a guy with questionable skin, silly hair.. But the world has united for a solo Slovenian and UAE..apparently I am in a minority, the business model makes no sense to me.

 

[GuntherL1]

Your response has to be the absolute best I have read to date!! So it's only Pogacar !! Glad that is cleared up, so all races, race officials, UCI ,law enforcement are all giving Pogacar a free pass, doping with impunity for the sake of..Pog? Bike racing? TDF, ? UAE and sponsors? I just can't figure out the business model and what is in it for the thousands of people over half a decade that have colluded to benefit Pogacar, a guy with questionable skin, silly hair.. But the world has united for a solo Slovenian and UAE..apparently I am in a minority, the business model makes no sense to me.

Oh dear... No, I mean that only Pogacar is on a special UAE program. A bit like Horner 2013 or Gilbert 2011 (although Vanendert was probably taking the same stuff). UAE is rich enough to buy excellent supporting riders. Why would they 'enhance' them, attract even more attention and increase the risk that they get caught?

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

You have to factor in the timing of the article and the doping insinunations before a big race as P-R to see the ill intentions behind this move.

Do you believe it is going to impact on Pogacar's chances on Sunday?

 

[Salvarani]

You have to factor in the timing of the article and the doping insinunations before a big race as P-R to see the ill intentions behind this move.

Propaganda and defamination on full display. So much jealousy and envy out there.

GOAT just riding his bike.

 

[Cookster15]

No, I mean that only Pogacar is on a special UAE program. A bit like Horner 2013 or Gilbert 2011 (although Vanendert was probably taking the same stuff). UAE is rich enough to buy excellent supporting riders. Why would they 'enhance' them, attract even more attention and increase the risk that they get caught?

Be it just Pogacar or all of UAE what is in it for them? Unchained covers this in the below quote - just doesn't add up.

Even at UAE we have seen Ayuso not willing to sacrifice his own ambitions for Pog. No murmur from Ayuso, his ambitious and outspoken father or any other teammate that they aren't on the same program? Then you must have noticed the motor theories as we have seen this thread descend into the absurd.

As for UCI corruption (oil money), this is cycling with a relatively limited global following, not football or Formula 1 and Pogacar is an eastern European not American - what is the business case for UAE? These are similar questions as would be raised if journalists went public with what we know.

Even then I am confused, one day others in this thread suggest it is UAE but now you are saying its only Pogacar, like Horner? Even accusations made against domestiques like Politt when he was working for Pog in the Tour. So within this thread we are inconsistent with our line of reasoning.

But your theory of a complete conspiracy, thousands of people keeping a secret for years, for free, nothing, absolutely nothing in it for them.. Doesn't make sense.
As Armchair points out.. Should the media, if they know something ignore it? Again the same questions repeat across all organizations.. What's in it for them to keep the secret? Or as many here are posting, it's obvious, out in the open, but being ignored because..... None of it makes sense. When Walsh and others came to print they had numerous confirmed data sources.. Pogacar been at high pro level since 2018.. Amounts of information today compared to Armstrong era are not similar in any way.

 

[Unchained]

I don't know if people are right or wrong about Pogacar. I don't know.
But the hypothesis doesn't factor.
And if you watched recent races, UCI sends 2,3,4 people in vests to receive race winners.. So a guy puts his hands on bicycle almost immediately and the bike doesn't get out of their view until it's been checked. And riders are shadowed until they go into controls. So if he has a motor, it's either not discovered or ignored.
And if he is dirty, I am not saying that they are holding " it" for him or are in the stall with him, shorts dropped, but it's close.
So if it's being ignored, ok..but Pogacar getting a back flush catheter is for sure possible, but again they are watching him the entire time. When the previous generation of gassers were peeing, every fan was not carrying a video camera, today every single person has a high quality video camera with often cloud level terabytes of storage and pixel rates unheard of Armstrong era.. So Pogacar could be cheating but so so much better than anything in human history. Lance had to hide from a few hundred cameras.. No Strava, little to no paparazzi access.. Pogacar would have to have upped his game by a million times with technology advancements.

 

[Rechtschreibfehler]

So if you look at cycling cycle.. first @ hundred years it existed, nothing much, Lance, cancer, Livestrong ,yellow wristbands worldwide.. Flew too close to the sun, cycling and cyclists became an easy joke about doping, PEDs..phase 2..big investors keep seeing opportunity, can't figure out how to exploit it, monetize it..some having varying degrees of success.. Pogacar and his rivals are attracting attention.. But your theory of a complete conspiracy, thousands of people keeping a secret for years, for free, nothing, absolutely nothing in it for them.. Doesn't make sense.

Where did I say this?
What I mean is something different: it's not in the self-preserving interests of anyone currently employed in cycling to have big doping cases again, especially of the absolute stars. Why? Simply because if cycling takes a dent, your e.g. mechanic job in a sport you love might be gone, your team might not find a sponsor, cycling in your country could go back to obscureness. Italian cycling still hasn't recovered and German and US Cycling are mostly footnotes now (Kuss' Vuelta win being the only big exception here). So in return for active ignorance, denial or downright covering up you reduce the risk for your job, your dream, cycling where you come from etc. In this way it's not for free actually.
I don't think that a conspiracy where thousands of people are in the know exists, I think what probably exists is a culture of not wanting to know, downplaying things and obscuring things with progress and science myths, so there is always a ready made answer for how all of this makes sense. And it's in everyones interest to believe in the good story rather than in the sources of doubt and the lessons from history.
So you don't need a conspiracy on a broad level, just a shared interest in things to go on as they do or develop further. Depending on how the doping is executed, you could even get around the athletes themselves really knowing, it suffices that they trust the doctors and choose to be ignorant. I don't have the sources on hand sadly, but I remember many stories of footballers (the one with the actual ball) saying that they don't really ask what the doctors are doing to them. Seems unlikely to me that this would be so easy in cycling given it's history, no needle policy and so on though.
So instead of a conspiracy where a lot of people need to know what's going on I propose that there are systemic reasons of self preservation of the system of professional sports and cycling in particular that solicitate the production of active ignorance and myth building so that the epistemic milieu of all participants becomes more and more blurry the father away from the centre you get. So instead of knowledge most participants may have doubts, or simply positive beliefs (everything is going it's rightful way, the doubters are haters and so on etc.)

 

[Red Rick]

The idea of antidoping is in itself self-contradicting in terms of all the incentives. The economics of anti doping make no sense, there is negative incentive to police yourself. Antidoping itself is just a fad media likes to whine about because it creates ragebait.

The problem really arises when you have all these people within the sport, who have every single incentive to lie, pretending all is fine and dandy and Pogacar is doing a climb 4 minutes faster than a guy with blood as thick as pitch because somewhere in the early 2020s exercise scientists finally discovered humans need food to exercise.

 

[Casual cyclist]

I don't know if people are right or wrong about Pogacar. I don't know.

The general --apologetic -- tone of your messages suggests otherwise. You just might be a lot happier in the kumbaya Pogo thread of the road racing forum.

But the hypothesis doesn't factor.
And if you watched recent races, UCI sends 2,3,4 people in vests to receive race winners.. So a guy puts his hands on bicycle almost immediately and the bike doesn't get out of their view until it's been checked. And riders are shadowed until they go into controls. So if he has a motor, it's either not discovered or ignored.

Of course. What's so difficult there?

And if he is dirty, I am not saying that they are holding " it" for him or are in the stall with him, shorts dropped, but it's close.
So if it's being ignored, ok..but Pogacar getting a back flush catheter is for sure possible, but again they are watching him the entire time. When the previous generation of gassers were peeing, every fan was not carrying a video camera, today every single person has a high quality video camera with often cloud level terabytes of storage and pixel rates unheard of Armstrong era..

How do fans' cameras and their pixels change anything?

So Pogacar could be cheating but so so much better than anything in human history. Lance had to hide from a few hundred cameras.. No Strava, little to no paparazzi access.. Pogacar would have to have upped his game by a million times with technology advancements.

 

[Casual cyclist]

Where did I say this?
What I mean is something different: it's not in the self-preserving interests of anyone currently employed in cycling to have big doping cases again, especially of the absolute stars. Why? Simply because if cycling takes a dent, your e.g. mechanic job in a sport you love might be gone, your team might not find a sponsor, cycling in your country could go back to obscureness. Italian cycling still hasn't recovered and German and US Cycling are mostly footnotes now (Kuss' Vuelta win being the only big exception here). So in return for active ignorance, denial or downright covering up you reduce the risk for your job, your dream, cycling where you come from etc. In this way it's not for free actually.
I don't think that a conspiracy where thousands of people are in the know exists, I think what probably exists is a culture of not wanting to know, downplaying things and obscuring things with progress and science myths, so there is always a ready made answer for how all of this makes sense. And it's in everyones interest to believe in the good story rather than in the sources of doubt and the lessons from history.

Exactly. Every little guy on the team does not have to know all details about Pogo's miraculous indefatigable motorcycle-like propulsion. What they do know, however, that their no so tiring job happens to pay pretty well and want to keep it that way. Whatever makes it ticking better continue. They just have zero -- or, rather, negative -- interest in nosing around in a search of possible foul play. Same apply to UCI officials and controllers. Occasionally, a naive person pops up as was witnessed by attentive TV viewers in the WCRR aftermath, but quiet is swiftly restored by their elders who likely benefit a bit more from the whole show.

So you don't need a conspiracy on a broad level, just a shared interest in things to go on as they do or develop further. Depending on how the doping is executed, you could even get around the athletes themselves really knowing, it suffices that they trust the doctors and choose to be ignorant. I don't have the sources on hand sadly, but I remember many stories of footballers (the one with the actual ball) saying that they don't really ask what the doctors are doing to them. Seems unlikely to me that this would be so easy in cycling given it's history, no needle policy and so on though.
So instead of a conspiracy where a lot of people need to know what's going on I propose that there are systemic reasons of self preservation of the system of professional sports and cycling in particular that solicitate the production of active ignorance and myth building so that the epistemic milieu of all participants becomes more and more blurry the father away from the centre you get. So instead of knowledge most participants may have doubts, or simply positive beliefs (everything is going it's rightful way, the doubters are haters and so on etc.)

That is most likely their view.

 

[Unchained]

The general --apologetic -- tone of your messages suggests otherwise. You just might be a lot happier in the kumbaya Pogo thread of the road racing forum.

Of course. What's so difficult there?

How do fans' cameras and their pixels change anything?

Really? Fans and non fans not having tens of thousands of multiple still and videos of Pogacar, pre, during and post race is not significant? Videos posted multiple times a day of Pogacar training, traveling , out and about are not significant? Not completely different than Armstrong era? Doping control, chain of custody are not improved since Lance? When Armstrong started racing hand held video cameras, were big,limited, expensive and were not in widespread use..by anyone let alone every person in Western world. I would argue that if Strava,Internet and cellphones were widely used when Armstrong was racing he would have been caught well before his 40 years old come back attempt. Many people say that if Armstrong had reduced his ego history might be very different.
Fans having hand held supercomputers, with real time video capabilities surely has cheating surveillance at levels never ever, ever seen in sports history.
Here in the forum people do weight, wattage,inner race performance analysis that never happened to Lance. Nobody calculated his Alpe d' Huez calculations in real time during the race..just wasn't a thing, wasn't possible for average fan.

 

[AmRacer]

Exactly. Every little guy on the team does not have to know all details about Pogo's miraculous indefatigable motorcycle-like propulsion. What they do know, however, that their no so tiring job happens to pay pretty well and want to keep it that way. Whatever makes it ticking better continue. They just have zero -- or, rather, negative -- interest in nosing around in a search of possible foul play. Same apply to UCI officials and controllers. Occasionally, a naive person pops up as was witnessed by attentive TV viewers in the WCRR aftermath, but quiet is swiftly restored by their elders who likely benefit a bit more from the whole show.

That is most likely their view.

At MSR, Pogi's moto misfires while Mathieu's run on special gas.

 

[Unchained]

I would argue that Roberto Gaggioli and Lance and many, many others benefited from fans not having photo, video and computing power in handheld device with unlimited world wide database. Many bike racers in Armstrong era would have been better off submitting a sample from Keith Richards than their own.

 

[Casual cyclist]

Really? Fans and non fans not having tens of thousands of multiple still and videos of Pogacar, pre, during and post race is not significant? Videos posted multiple times a day of Pogacar training, traveling , out and about are not significant? Not completely different than Armstrong era? Doping control, chain of custody are not improved since Lance? When Armstrong started racing hand held video cameras, were big,limited, expensive and were not in widespread use..by anyone let alone every person in Western world. I would argue that if Strava,Internet and cellphones were widely used when Armstrong was racing he would have been caught well before his 40 years old come back attempt. Many people say that if Armstrong had reduced his ego history might be very different.
Fans having hand held supercomputers, with real time video capabilities surely has cheating surveillance at levels never ever, ever seen in sports history.
Here in the forum people do weight, wattage,inner race performance analysis that never happened to Lance. Nobody calculated his Alpe d' Huez calculations in real time during the race..just wasn't a thing, wasn't possible for average fan.

Did Lance use to inject himself with PEDs somewhere under the bush where a vigilant fan's camera phone could have caught him in the act had the aforementioned concerned fan been so equipped? Did not know that.

 

[noob]

There is to much to loose for cycling to have a real interest in finding out what is going on, especially since history has shown that trying to seriously battle doping does not get you applause but a bad reputation as a sport.

This! There's zero incentive to bust anyone. The only thing fun to discuss is what they might be doing.

 

[pelotonIQ]

Do you believe it is going to impact on Pogacar's chances on Sunday?

I am a spectator, Pogacar is the one racing, up to him to handle the slander and defamation the French are trying to throw at him. It's nevertheless unprofessional what they are trying to insinuate like cowards behind ambiguity. Either fully accuse him or be quiet.

 

[Stablo]

Dopage mécanique : « La technologie existe, on sait qu’il y a des mécanos de l’ombre qui se consacrent à ça »

Environ un an après sa nomination au poste de chef de la lutte contre la fraude technologique de l’UCI, Nick Raudenski se dit « très résolu pour que cela ne devienne pas quelque chose de répandu ».

www.letelegramme.fr

More insight on the motor theory. Not a subscriber myself, so don't have the chance to read the full article, but the title is already intresting. Getting an idea that there really are mechanics and engineers who dedicate their time to innovate and get ahead. Then ad Gianetti and UAE:s resources with the year round effortless/non-fatigue all terrain super shape, makes one suspicious at least.

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

I am a spectator, Pogacar is the one racing, up to him to handle the slander and defamation the French are trying to throw at him. It's nevertheless unprofessional what they are trying to insinuate like cowards behind ambiguity. Either fully accuse him or be quiet.

Seems a bit strange to present the publications of one entity (I'm not sure if it's a newspaper, broadcast channel or only a website) as the actions of a nation...

 

[zlev11]

Dopage mécanique : « La technologie existe, on sait qu’il y a des mécanos de l’ombre qui se consacrent à ça »

Environ un an après sa nomination au poste de chef de la lutte contre la fraude technologique de l’UCI, Nick Raudenski se dit « très résolu pour que cela ne devienne pas quelque chose de répandu ».

www.letelegramme.fr

More insight on the motor theory. Not a subscriber myself, so don't have the chance to read the full article, but the title is already intresting. Getting an idea that there really are mechanics and engineers who dedicate their time to innovate and get ahead. Then ad Gianetti and UAE:s resources with the year round effortless/non-fatigue all terrain super shape, makes one suspicious at least.

wow i would like to see the full article if anyone has access. i would subscribe but the last time i subscribed to something in a language i didn't understand they charged my credit card for 9 months before i could get it cancelled.

 

[YellowSocks]

I don't think that a conspiracy where thousands of people are in the know exists, I think what probably exists is a culture of not wanting to know, downplaying things and obscuring things with progress and science myths, so there is always a ready made answer for how all of this makes sense.

I'm also thinking of millions of people who consider doping to be a normal part of sport, and of cycling in particular. A normal part that one must avoid to talk about, that's all.

There was a poll in France last autumn on the image of Pogacar. According to the poll, 54% of cycling fans consider his performances to be dubious. So what? They still follow his races (I am one of them).

Stories of marginal gains are part of the decorum. They always have been.

It's normal for Pogacar to attract attention in this matter: he's way above the rest (and couldn't didn't run the Olympics). If he is on something special, perhaps new, perhaps undetectable, inevitably that something will spread through the peloton, the gaps will close, and perhaps a new affair will break out (with the help of the police).

Despite having to confess an unhealthy fascination for riders' secret activities (the vintage image of a blood bag hanging in a small hotel room with miserable decoration), which goes really well along with a sport celebrating suffering, I regret the lack of fairness, and I have a special affection and respect for riders who don't want to win at that price.