Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[AmRacer]

All true except the Pogoclown's gap in Fleche was growing a bit faster.

Jonas have put Pogi in place, twice. And Mathieu several times.
How about them?

 

[SorelyBoy]

All true except the Pogoclown's gap in Fleche was growing a bit faster.

And up a much steeper hill. The more I look at it the more incredible (as in literally not credible) it seems. He just glides away to open up a gap over his nearest rival in about twenty meters in a few seconds. Hilariously obvious. My brain just can’t process it.

 

[QueenStagiaire]

The Froome attack being brought up again and again is going to make me go mental… The guy attacks in his typical massively low gear, then reaches the shallowest point on the climb and so of course his cadence escalates. Just because people keep staring at Contador dissppearing by massively bonking they think this is some crazy attack. It would also be an incredibly dumb motor concept if this was the outcome.

 

[Casual cyclist]

Jonas have put Pogi in place, twice. And Mathieu several times.
How about them?

That's a topic in its own right. We would need to scrutinize the totality of their performances. At this point though it is clear that Pogo is the most egregious offender in that regard, and we are using him to study the phenomenon, just like Marx used 19th century England as the purest case for the general study of capitalism as such. Offhand, it can only be noted that both aforementioned Pogo defeaters did have highly suspicious performances of their own, the 2023 TDF TT being probably the most prominent of those.

 

[Casual cyclist]

Jonas have put Pogi in place, twice. And Mathieu several times.
How about them?

P.S. I think it was noted on these pages before that before the last year TDF heat seemed to had been a real problem for Pogo's e-assist. That's why he was able to go full current in cold and rainy weather (like in stage 8 of 2021 TDF) but not so much in the typical summer heat. They likely made some good advances with regard to his assist system last year, so he was happily motoring non-stop exhibiting neither short-, nor medium- or long-term fatigue whatsoever.

 

[AmRacer]

P.S. I think it was noted on these pages before that before the last year TDF heat seemed to had been a real problem for Pogo's e-assist. That's why he was able to go full current in cold and rainy weather (like in stage 8 of 2021 TDF) but not so much in the typical summer heat. They likely made some good advances with regard to his assist system last year, so he was happily motoring non-stop exhibiting neither short-, nor medium- or long-term fatigue whatsoever.

Meaning UAE's technology is now slightly better than Visma's. But it doesn't explain Mathieu's superior performance.

 

[Casual cyclist]

Meaning UAE's technology is now slightly better than Visma's. But it doesn't explain Mathieu's superior performance.

Is there a natural law that somehow makes motor usage absolutely impossible in Canyon bikes, limiting it to Colnago and Cervelo only? If there is, let talk about it.

 

[Unchained]

Would you seriously expect him to drop back before every corner and on every descent if he were using a motor? That behavior would convince you? But if he does not do that and even sometimes crashes then definitely no motor? Is that the logic? For real?

Would you expect such payments be made in public before TV audience in gold coins or published weekly in WSJ? How many people know when, how much and for what you get paid on your job? Or anybody for that matter in this 100% transparent world? Do you believe that paying certain people without causing a lot of commotion and creating civil unrest is indeed more difficult than defying all physiological laws? Have been reading a lot of sci-fi lately?

I certainly read and considered your points of view.. Each of them is flimsy for sure..
would you expect Pogacar to ride differently while using an electric motor? Of course. Why would you take chances, use human energy unnecessarily if you have a motor to avoid it? You wouldn't
Many posts here cut the legs out of the stealth argument.. In fact dozens of posts use your perspective.. The posts say some version of Pogacar obviously pushed a button, deployed electric motor and rode away from all in some cartoonish speed. So it's either obviously happening.. Or it's not as I contend.
Your assertion that cash or credit payments wouldn't happen out in the open is comical!! Where else, how else would they happen?
The people watching urine leave Pogacar need pre payments or agreements to get an envelope or money deposit either before or after the dope control cover-up.. And that's dozens of people in the chain of custody. Same with bike inspections.. Multiple bike bloggers, general public, race officials, UCI staff and many others get their hands on bicycles before and after they are raced..how are the payments arranged ? And critical.. Everyone always agrees to keep the secret electric motor under wraps? Pogacar protection and hush money payments are absolute!! And they come on race day? Or immediately after? His bibs are down, he is aiming towards a urine sample cup and all people involved are onboard with hiding his drug use? Or allowing an alternative sample to be submitted? And everyone agrees and gets satisfaction from pay out structure from UAE or Pogacar? Sure someone might try to strike up a conversation while you are using the bathroom.. Or even while you are holding your member at the urinal but this happens day after day, different countries and languages, ? Sounds next level James Bond w a urine twist..
Who's job is this anyway? UAE is asking the questions to who exactly? When? They send forward troops and arrive in a town.. Excuse me, do you know who will be doing bike inspections on Monday's stage? We need to talk with them.. Pardon me miss..do you know the names and addresses of the urine collection team for Wednesday's stage? We urgently need to speak with them? What do you mean they won't be here until the morning of the stage!!!? We need them right now!! Where do they live? I guess that could happen..
Where do people like David Arthur, Matt Stephens, and dozens of other bike bloggers fit in? They are part of the press junket that review all the pro bikes.. They have never seen or heard anything about motor removal, installation, testing, malfunctions? These dozens of people who make a living talking about bicycles have not seen anything?

 

[Casual cyclist]

And up a much steeper hill. The more I look at it the more incredible (as in literally not credible) it seems. He just glides away to open up a gap over his nearest rival in about twenty meters in a few seconds. Hilariously obvious. My brain just can’t process it.

You are right: this could just be the single most convincing number in that whole circus.

 

[AmRacer]

Is there a natural law that somehow makes motor usage absolutely impossible in Canyon bikes, limiting it to Colnago and Cervelo only? If there is, let talk about it.

It's like in F1, every year one team has superior technology and the fastest car. Next year, another team is ahead with their technology advances.

 

[zlev11]

At one point it looks like he's struggling to keep up with his own cadence.

dude is on a runaway train

 

[Casual cyclist]

It's like in F1, every year one team has superior technology and the fastest car. Next year, another team is ahead with their technology advances.

Yeah, except there it is explicitly motorized vehicle racing.

 

[Stablo]

A better path is to read what others like Tim Cahill mentioned yesterday about more sophisticated blood doping. But then the wheel turns back to other teams. I think there is an arms race. Visma briefly held sway but then Gianetti upped the game.

What we really need to understand is how none of the big fish trigger the passport? I also think there is much misunderstanding from fans on how the passport works including which blood markers it trtracks

I honestly have zero idea what you are talking about!!
Lance was Trek, Gatorade, Livestrong, Discovery, US Post Office, Nike, Giro, Bell, Oakleys..not selling clothes that are hard to find, MET helmets, no name sunglasses and Colnagos!! The amount of money that was being shoveled into Armstrong engine was 10 times anything Pogacar' personality is generating!! His TDF victories are celebrated in a cycling echo chamber bubble, nobody cares!! He isn't a world wide celebrity!! Don't kid yourself!! Cycling has exploded in exposure because of cable TV and social media and with all that more people still watch dog shows, darts ,bowling and billiards compared with bike racing!! A few elite pro golfers make as much in a couple of good weeks than Pogacar clears in a year.. The number of people and mega corporations that had an interest in letting Lance not lie himself into scandal was long and well funded.. Pogacar is not able to move the meter..
that is probably the only compelling thing about most of the muck people type.. Why are big multi nationals steering clear of Pogacar and UAE? Why would a sugar drink company like Coke, Gatorade, Red Bull, Monster try some association? Maybe they have done some research and think the liability is too massive.. Why would some company ( companies) want to be associated with the most winning team in cycling history? Maybe they discover some skeletons and opt out!!?

Lance was the only one punished, UCI ,everyone in cycling who played along, lied along with him, nothing.. Nike, Trek, half dozen others who knew the score but shut up and cashed the checks.. No punishment.. Nothing.. Trek,Nike, Gatorade should have been banned from cycling, Olympics and sponsorship of anything, dirty, dirty, filthy dirty cheaters..

Your basically putting a lot of sports brands in a row, one after another in this long rant. Yet it still has got nothing to do with the dynamics of current pro cycling. UAE are the big dogs now, bringing the most money to UCI, it's really that simple. Period. No need to go for Colnago, Oakley etc. etc.

Edit. Some of the reply to Cookster got missing in the bytespace 🤷‍♂️

 

[Stablo]

I have no idea if he's doping (or Vingegaard, Remco, MdvP etc). However, I don't buy the motor-doping theory for a number of reasons. If he's got some sort of secret motor, I don't understand why he gets caught by Vinegaard on Le Lorian, or why he can't drop MdvP and Ganna on the Cipressa, or why he gets caught at Amstel. It also seems that it would be SO difficult to keep secret and it would rely upon so many different people to keep quiet. I could sort of buy that UAE is doing something shady with blood doping or something else that is undetectable by testing. But surely a motor in his bike would ping every time a commissaire checks his bike - even if you assume some sort of big conspiracy theory where UAE is paying off half the UCI officials, all it would take is ONE honest official. It would be SO easy to get caught.

Why does it need a big conspiracy theory? It only needs the ones checking the bikes, few UCI managers, few mechanics in UAE to be connected to the case. Poggie&Gianetti aswell off course, but people keep talking here, that it would need hundreds(some say even thousands) of people to be part of the "conspiracy". Come on it would need only a dozen or less people to know for sure, some more might have suspicions.

I am myself 50/50 for the e-bike theory, but i also think you have be blind and ignorant to say things like im sure it has never been used. Then many explain that with only because it would be too risky. Hey come on there are so many possible cases of some assistance use and suspicions in the past +20 years. Im certain that no one uses them in every race around the year, but sometimes? I can't rule it out. The Cancellara things, Froomey and now past couple of years Teddy has had more than a few performances, that are hard to explain only with normal PEDs.

 

[AmRacer]

Yeah, except there it is explicitly motorized vehicle racing.

Visma 2023 was something else. Now, their riders cannot handle the extra power and crashing all the time.

 

[Epicycle2]

My unfounded speculation is that whatever doping program he's been on was modified somehow after Amstel and we saw the results of that on the Mur de Huy. Maybe he was even surprised at how well it worked.

As for a motor, that would require somebody at the UCI giving him special treatment as discussed, which I wouldn't completely rule out, but the chances of that seem slim.

We'll see how well he goes at Liege and if he seems at least somewhat human again but he was definitely on the alien level at Fleche.

 

[Casual cyclist]

My unfounded speculation is that whatever doping program he's been on was modified somehow after Amstel and we saw the results of that on the Mur de Huy. Maybe he was even surprised at how well it worked.

As for a motor, that would require somebody at the UCI giving him special treatment as discussed, which I wouldn't completely rule out, but the chances of that seem slim.

Yeah, in the modern incorruptible world where people's motives are almost exclusively altruistic and not in the least selfish and almost never profit driven, those chances are slim indeed.

 

[Blobs]

As for a motor, that would require somebody at the UCI giving him special treatment as discussed, which I wouldn't completely rule out, but the chances of that seem slim.

Qatar and Saudi Arabia put their bribes towards getting the (football) World Cup to their countries.

The UAE has chosen cycling as their primary sports washing project. It's not infeasible that they use bribes as well.

 

[SorelyBoy]

I wish some folks would stop comparing this guy to Froome. Everything from the Sky era was in slow motion compared with what we’re seeing now. Froome had a red zone. He was just a little better most days on the climbs than his nearest rivals. He focused on his weaknesses and turned them into strengths. He became a great descender and time trialist. He lost a *** load of weight to improve his climbing. But he could have bad days. He got sick. He could hit a peak in terms of his season but just one, not a whole series. He couldn’t do classics to save his life. Some people might object, but looking back on it he was comparatively normal.

 

[E_F_]

The UAE has chosen cycling as their primary sports washing project.

Have you never heard about City Football Group?

 

[Casual cyclist]

I wish some folks would stop comparing this guy to Froome. Everything from the Sky era was in slow motion compared with what we’re seeing now. Froome had a red zone. He was just a little better most days on the climbs than his nearest rivals. He focused on his weaknesses and turned them into strengths. He became a great descender and time trialist. He lost a *** load of weight to improve his climbing. But he could have bad days. He got sick. He could hit a peak in terms of his season but just one, not a whole series. He couldn’t do classics to save his life. Some people might object, but looking back on it he was comparatively normal.

That's the god given truth. Give me Froome and Sagan era any time. Cycling was still fully watchable even if some questions could be asked. And that's the difference between those pre-covid times and now: then there were questions and now there are not. The current farce is so blatant, everything is obvious.

 

[SorelyBoy]

That's the god given truth. Give me Froome and Sagan era any time. Cycling was still fully watchable even if some questions could be asked. And that's the difference between those pre-covid times and now: then there were questions and now there are not. The current farce is so blatant, everything is obvious.

Remember when at the start of the EPO era some riders knew something had infected the peloton because the speed and intensity just went through the roof? Le Mon himself commented on it and knew that, whatever it was, this was the end for him. Then we learned what it was and who had the best programmes. Then just a few years ago, after a period of relative normality and competitiveness, weird *** started to happen again. I remember Thomas De Gendt commenting on it, saying that he was putting in his best efforts that would usually win stages but which now only allowed him to barely keep up. And then as before, some team develops the best programme and some guy rises above all. But this time it’s different. It’s not even close. It lasts all season and impacts all types of races. Physiological weakness has been banished, a thing of the past. Accelerations are instant and ever lasting. The golden god was selected. And as before, no one is allowed to spit in the soup.

 

[cnort]

The current farce is so blatant, everything is obvious.

And yet we cannot confidently say what the riders are doing to achieve these ridiculous performances. I think we badly need a big name to be rumbled to help understand the 'how'.

As for Froome, his donkey to racehorse trajectory was as sickening as the Brailsford crap about how it was achieved. There was never clean cycling, but at least pre-EPO they had to open their mouths to breath. Maybe the Fishmonger has gills while the Coalminer heaps the black stuff in the furnace that powers his bike.

 

[Blobs]

Have you never heard about City Football Group?

Touché.
So instead of "primary" it's just "one of their main" projects. Still my point stands

 

[E_F_]

Touché.
So instead of "primary" it's just "one of their main" project. Still my point stands

As I've said before, cycling is dirt cheap in the grand scheme of things, and UAE get an insane amount of exposure within it.