Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[pelotonIQ]

This is an argument of the form "this is so because so it is". When comparing running and cycling, one should also note that in cycling drafting is the big thing and the majority of time in every race is spent in a tight group, aka peloton. That does not work in running and contributes towards results being closer in cycling, if anything.

Which proves my point even further, the existence of drafting in cycling adds another layer of variable when it comes to fatigue levels between riders which could make for wider time gaps later when the riders approach a mountain climb. In short distance running there is barely any draft which means that everyone is more or less around the same fatigue level, making for smaller time gaps.

That's what I was saying, wasn't it.? Cycling as opposed to running, skiing, skating etc, allows for the use of propulsion external to the rider. What exactly is fueling? If it is eating, then there is no difference between cycling and long distance running (like marathon and beyond). If it is batteries, then that's my point. Training? Implying that training in running is unnecessary, aren't we?

Another strawman detected. When I said that ''equipment, fueling, training are improving'' it was in regards to your comparison of Pogacar and Pantani.
I'm not going to reply to your response to arguments I haven't made. Try again, without strawman.

Same can be said about any runner who broke a long standing record. Or do runners live for centuries and run until they are many decades old?

You are free to pick any other record from any distance running or anything similar where the gain made was over 10%.

This is the 3rd time I repeat the same message. Running and cycling are two different sports. You demanding a running record to be beaten by 10-15% is nonsense compared to a climb at the end of a grueling race. Do you not see the difference between running and cycling? You're comparing a 3km flat run where everyone starts fresh to a TdF/Classic/Monument climb

Why can't we discuss this? New rules set by you? Also, please do help yourself to the perusal of that vote result. 40% of participants here think that those "accusations" are far from absurd. Another 45% believe that Pogo is on some heavy duty doping program at least comparable with full-on EPO of old.

Do you want to force me to discuss motor-doping with you? Find someone else

That brings us to the interesting question. What exactly are you trying to accomplish here where the majority consensus is very far from your "grey-zone" mantra? Seriously, what's wrong with going to the main Pogo thread and rejoicing in his "grey-zone" fueled accomplishments?

Are you saying that I'm not allowed to have an opinion just because you don't agree with me? I can atleast defend with my stance unlike others who claim Pogacar is doped up the gills but can't explain what he's taking or doing

 

[Raest]

While I agree that PdB performance is ridiculous indeed, however:
1) the previous record (Pantani's) is not even close to the best climbing performances of the 90's (so the relative w/kg improvement should be done vs best AdH or Hautacam rides) and then we would be talking about 2-4% range.

2) those mountain stages lasted many hours while your relative improvement refers only to 40 minutes, which isn't totally correct as fatigue accumulates also before the final MTF. There's a reason why gaps explode at the end of hard races and you get ridiculous relative differences for the final sections: gaps build "virtually" even when guys ride together (various levels of cumulative fatigue among the riders). Obviously such effect never happens in "sterile" track&field runs.

3) Other factors also influence cycling speeds i.e. weather conditions, pacing and maybe (?) also bike technology (compared to 30 years ago). PdB was a perfect storm in terms of pacing: Pogacar was paced hard by JV, who wanted to destroy him but instead delivered him record breaking pace.

The Plateau de Beille was ridiculous not only for the time but for the fact that he averaged 6.85W/gk over 40 min after 4 first category climbs, at Stage 15 of the Tour. As you said fatigure accumulates. Armstrong's lab best FTP, i.e. perfect conditions/rested was around 6.7 W/kg.

The rest is not a reply to your comment @Krysztof_O but some comments on the posts of the last 3 pages:
Based on what is known for human performance, what Pogacar (primarily) and other cyclists have been doing since Covid is not physiologically possible. Thinking that this quantum leap in performance with respect to the most heavily doped athletes in the history of any sport can be explained by re-breathers, asthma inhalers or other nebulous "grey-zone" methods is wishful thinking at best (I am going to keep the post civil and not describe the worst case scenario).

We don't have to know what said cyclists have been using, substance or otherwise, nor do we need to prove, it's not our vocation or responsibility. But we don't need to test the DNA of a duck to know that it's a duck when it looks and quacks like one.. We merely point out that it's a fing duck.
When/if a study comes out that shows how it's possible to surpass the performance gain of EPO using, for example, basil extract and it turns out that Pog has been using basil all this time then I will say "well done mate" and buy lots of basil. Till then I'll remain certain that he is using some form (or combination of multiple) of illegal enhancement which may or may not have been used in the past.