Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[Oldman]

Nope. Ignorance is a bliss I can tell you. It would be far more easier to just enjoy this WWE-show and cheer for motorčar/dopačar performances from the last 1,5 years specially(since 2020 tbh), but I just can't, never. Hurts the brain even more that way, it was the same with Pharmastrong, Froomie etc. this is just on another planet compared to those ones.

and after the TT everyone was cheering the end of Tadej's dominance and happy to write him off. Just a note to the uninitiated: the implication about Tadej belong in the Clinic. They have a doping aisle and a motor doping aisle where you're free to shop for conspiracies d'Jour.
I'm not a Mod but one may come knocking soon.

 

[Stablo]

and after the TT everyone was cheering the end of Tadej's dominance and happy to write him off. Just a note to the uninitiated: the implication about Tadej belong in the Clinic. They have a doping aisle and a motor doping aisle where you're free to shop for conspiracies d'Jour.
I'm not a Mod but one may come knocking soon.

This is The Clinic now where we have been discussing this. The thread for the monster creation of Gianetti. Friday and beer or wth? 🫡😅And yes after the TT I had hopes that we would be in for a good battle, fighting for the win, but the one monster just keeps on dominating. They have gone of limits the past 1,5 years, no drops in form, every discipline and fresh as a daisy all year around.

 

[Epicycle2]

For all those comparing VIngo out of the saddle vs Pog in the saddle and dropping him, just know that when you are at the limit on a clim and you get out of the saddle you are not really sprinting. It may be something like going from 300W to 330W (not for Vingo, just a general example) and even though you look like you are sprinting it is not a huge increase of power. It is just a last try before you have to drop the pace.
Now, I agree that Pog's dominance is ridiculous and I really hope Rog can pull off a TdF victory this year. However, if I have to choose between Pog and the nasty guy with the ugly helmet I would always go for Pog.

Today does follow the Mur de Huy performance though, where a sudden increase in power out of the saddle can be a big deal on a short climb and was not necessary for Pog on the Mur except for a brief moment.

So Tadej staying in the saddle today emphasizes his ease at dropping whoever he wants in the context of what happened during the Fleche.

 

[Ripper]

and after the TT everyone was cheering the end of Tadej's dominance and happy to write him off. Just a note to the uninitiated: the implication about Tadej belong in the Clinic. They have a doping aisle and a motor doping aisle where you're free to shop for conspiracies d'Jour.
I'm not a Mod but one may come knocking soon.

A couple of thoughts ...

First, a number of people I am aware of actually think Pog sandbagged the TT a bit. He certainly did not look like he was giving the ol' Deadpool Maximum Effort. And it was definitely not a pacing issue.

Second - this is the clinic. So I don't know how to interpret your post.

 

[noob]

I don't understand why every race has to be won. But I guess if you're used to it and has become "win tolerant" you have to win in bigger and better style with more minutes and crush the competition more and more each time.

Maybe he's become addicted not to winning but to humiliate. How small must the self confidence of such a person be.

 

[pelotonIQ]

I don't understand why every race has to be won. But I guess if you're used to it and has become "win tolerant" you have to win in bigger and better style with more minutes and crush the competition more and more each time.

Maybe he's become addicted not to winning but to humiliate. How small must the self confidence of such a person be.

That's why it's called a 'race'. What is the point of racing then?

 

[SHAD0W93]

I don't understand why every race has to be won. But I guess if you're used to it and has become "win tolerant" you have to win in bigger and better style with more minutes and crush the competition more and more each time.

Maybe he's become addicted not to winning but to humiliate. How small must the self confidence of such a person be.

I’d want to win as much as I could. Nothing in sports is guaranteed, he could start struggling to win or an accident could derail his career. As slim as it is, this could be his last win. It’s like in team sports when one destroys the other and the losing team cries about the score, if you don’t want the score run up do something about it.

 

[Cookster15]

I don't understand why every race has to be won. But I guess if you're used to it and has become "win tolerant" you have to win in bigger and better style with more minutes and crush the competition more and more each time.

Maybe he's become addicted not to winning but to humiliate. How small must the self confidence of such a person be.

Not sure I understand. Pogacar already had an underwhelming TT this week by his standards so this statement is plainly wrong. Asking why every race shouldn't be won also seems to relate to Armstrong's 'no gifts' statement in 2004. How would Vingegaard or anyone else feel if Pogacar gifted them a win - dare I say humiliated?

I also really doubt its got anything to do with Pogacar wanting to humiliate the opposition or lacking self confidence. Pogacar was on the receiving end of such a beating just two years back.

 

[Monoxidator]

To me the performance today looked like a motor ... when he sped past the last breakaway rider seated, it didn't look like his quads were flexing normally as they would when you are pushing really hard (big ring, seated acceleration), in fact his cadence looked oddly relaxed. It was only a moment and then the camera switched to a different angle. I've never considered motor doping before, but the fully seated and kind of odd cadence looked almost like he was trying to disguise the hidden power. Pogacar is also known to almost always use the bike with the straight seat tube ... while the rest of the team has been on the Aero bike with the kinked seat tube (more difficult to install motor).

After the race what was also suspicious is he didn't get off his bike, he was sitting on it and riding it around to greet people until enough riders had come in and the chaos was large enough to hand the bike to a mechanic. I found that very odd.

 

[Oldman]

A couple of thoughts ...

First, a number of people I am aware of actually think Pog sandbagged the TT a bit. He certainly did not look like he was giving the ol' Deadpool Maximum Effort. And it was definitely not a pacing issue.

Second - this is the clinic. So I don't know how to interpret your post.

I'm sorry for responding in the traditional Clinic forum. Some of the posts suggested to me that there was a new tier of imaginary boogeyriders and cheating techniques. The speculation of possible methods to game the system was in a new realm for me. Doping? Yes. Federation officials that have a vested interest in not pursuing something suspicious, totally yes. UCI Federation President doing all of these to get a possible Olympic Commitee seat...most definitely yes.
The motor *** is so 2015...It's detectable by anyone near a rider so I can't go full gas on that level of stupid.
As for sandbagging the TT? I think he applied himself on the important research elements for future efforts. He stayed mostly seated during the TT like Remco and seemed very solid; particularly after losing 20+ seconds in the first, flat section. Vingo did not.
I'd call it more of a research exercise. Lessons learned played out today, minus the motors.

 

[Oldman]

To me the performance today looked like a motor ... when he sped past the last breakaway rider seated, it didn't look like his quads were flexing normally as they would when you are pushing really hard (big ring, seated acceleration), in fact his cadence looked oddly relaxed. It was only a moment and then the camera switched to a different angle. I've never considered motor doping before, but the fully seated and kind of odd cadence looked almost like he was trying to disguise the hidden power. Pogacar is also known to almost always use the bike with the straight seat tube ... while the rest of the team has been on the Aero bike with the kinked seat tube (more difficult to install motor).

After the race what was also suspicious is he didn't get off his bike, he was sitting on it and riding it around to greet people until enough riders had come in and the chaos was large enough to hand the bike to a mechanic. I found that very odd.

Have you ever watched a fixed gear track racer in full spin? It's pure technique and suppleness. I mention Remco's similar climbing effort in the TT but no one seems to want to make that comparison.

By the way all: I made a mistaken venture into the Clinic. This discussion deserves it's own classification.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Today does follow the Mur de Huy performance though, where a sudden increase in power out of the saddle can be a big deal on a short climb and was not necessary for Pog on the Mur except for a brief moment.

So Tadej staying in the saddle today emphasizes his ease at dropping whoever he wants in the context of what happened during the Fleche.

I think it's this year that he started doing more seated attacks. In the past every time he was out of the saddle when attacking Vingegaard but yesterday it was something else. I thought "staying in a saddle? How can he drop Vingegaard?" and after a few seconds I got the answer.

 

[meat puppet]

Mentioning femke is apt. Every race has now turned into a parakeets heist (they were of the sino afrodisiac variety, as far as I can remember blackcat's memeing here).

 

[TrekCyclist]

I don't believe in motor doping. I could imagine you get away with it once. But not in a so many races during the past 1,5 years or so. I understand they check the bikes at least from time to time after finish.
Also, would expect some rumors to be around and other teams become active.

If it was repeated motor doping, UCI should close down this sport.

Still, I have no idea what can get you to that level of metabolism / aerobic power output. As I understand, scientists do not constider this possible without MASSIVE medical intervention (but still no idea what exactly is the "new stuff").

 

[nilfen]

If it is obvious he is using motor-doping (I dont have the eye for detail and cant tell) and he is protected by UCI - how come the french police dont do something? As far as I recall, the Festina-case was a police and not UCI-case?

 

[MartinGT]

One of the most laughable things is the commentators and ex pros try and make us beleive he does this because gels now have more carbs in em 😂

 

[TrekCyclist]

One of the most laughable things is the commentators and ex pros try and make us beleive he does this because gels now have more carbs in em 😂

Yeah sure, especially for a 20min effort like yesterday

 

[MartinGT]

Mentioning femke is apt. Every race has now turned into a parakeets heist (they were of the sino afrodisiac variety, as far as I can remember blackcat's memeing here).

Yeh but at least the UCI caught her eh? Otherwise she would have ruined women's cycling.

 

[Cookster15]

If it is obvious he is using motor-doping (I dont have the eye for detail and cant tell) and he is protected by UCI - how come the french police dont do something? As far as I recall, the Festina-case was a police and not UCI-case?

My feeling is motor doping isn’t possible without UCI protection. Any trained mechanic with access to the internet will know what to look for.

Everything suggested in this forum they would be aware of and know how to find it. As far as I know the UCI enforces the bike inspection rules for race winners and leaders. But even if they don’t Pogacar and UAE wouldn’t take that risk unless they knew they wouldn't be checked.

 

[Stablo]

The motor *** is so 2015...It's detectable by anyone near a rider so I can't go full gas on that level of stupid.

Holy moly! If it's detectable by anyone, please share your insight on how. We are not talking about the e-bikes you see on the normal streets with big batteries. They were able to make small motors/batteries hidden in the seat tubes over 25 years ago, that time we didn't even have smartphones or any other of the cutting edge technology of today. And I read here earlier, that they have somewhere invested hundreds of thousand € for very sophisticated systems, so they do exist and you can also buy a roadbike with one, if you can spare a couple tens of thousands on it. So imagine what can the richest team ever afford with it's unlimited resources. So sure you can easily detect it just by being close to a rider. And then you have the arrogance calling others stupid🤦🤌

 

[Stablo]

My feeling is motor doping isn’t possible without UCI protection. Any trained mechanic with access to the internet will know what to look for.

Everything suggested in this forum they would be aware of and know how to find it. As far as I know the UCI enforces the bike inspection rules for race winners and leaders. But even if they don’t Pogacar and UAE wouldn’t take that risk unless they knew they wouldn't be checked.

The thing is that he has also become such a big star of the sport, so if they weren't even complicit in it, I don't think a "bust" would come to the light. There's too much money and peoples livelyhood on the table, at least for now they wouldn't, but I hope people get bored/mad enough that it will change. The covering of traditional doping has happened before and even Lance wouldn't have been busted without the comeback and many angry compatriots. Well anyway I believe that the "covering" isn't even needed, cause there is the connection with UAE&UCI and at least from the outside it doesn't look good at all.

 

[Psycat]

I don't believe in motor doping. I could imagine you get away with it once. But not in a so many races during the past 1,5 years or so. I understand they check the bikes at least from time to time after finish.
Also, would expect some rumors to be around and other teams become active.

If it was repeated motor doping, UCI should close down this sport.

Still, I have no idea what can get you to that level of metabolism / aerobic power output. As I understand, scientists do not constider this possible without MASSIVE medical intervention (but still no idea what exactly is the "new stuff").

Nah I dont really buy the motor theory either, even if I am quite convinced it has been used by other riders for particular stages(we all know the usual suspects/clips of this). I am more leaning towards advanced bioengineering which is what will ultimately decide who's winning in sports if it's not already which I am starting to believe.

Just to be clear I am not ruling out motor doping either, would be a fool to rule out any sort of cheating with the money at stake and with the people involved in the sport. It's just that I think we are on the very edge of gene doping etc so who's to say there aren't a couple of prototypes out already.

 

[hrotha]

The thing with motors is, if the technology is there motors won't give you an edge over any competitors who are also using motors (and if the technology is there and it's normal and people are not being caught, why wouldn't they). Compare to PEDs which give a much more variable edge depending on how good of a responder you are, which PEDs you're using and how good your doctor is. Compare also the volume of information and credible whispers about doping in the peloton compared to motors.

At present, the motor theory is just a magic solution to any problem. "Can't explain this, must be motors".

 

[Stablo]

Imho If and a big If monsta doesn't have an advantage in a very new sophisticated motor, then his on some new&better biological enhanchment. I'm not looking at any certain one event/race, but the bigger picture specially for the past 1,5 year. It's just too unnatural with all terrain, all year around and almost every race domination. If it's so, then I'm worried about the (long term) effects of the stuff the guy(s) is using. With something completely new you can't yet have a lot of scientific data, of the possible hasards and side effects.

 

[Blobs]

and after the TT everyone was cheering the end of Tadej's dominance and happy to write him off. Just a note to the uninitiated: the implication about Tadej belong in the Clinic. They have a doping aisle and a motor doping aisle where you're free to shop for conspiracies d'Jour.
I'm not a Mod but one may come knocking soon.

You are in the clinic bro!