Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[Stablo]

Not to mention the TT bike which gets a thorough examination before the stage starts by a UCI official.

Yeah what a coincident he wasn't on a supermutant level there.

 

[zlev11]

Sure, the UCI has every incentive to protect Pogačar. But it's not like anyone else has been caught with a motor, is it. So either the UCI also has an incentive to protect everyone else including Pogačar's rivals (meaning: no competitive edge), or the UCI isn't looking at all (so Pogačar's rivals are equally free to use motors, meaning: no competitive edge), or only Pogačar is using a motor because his rivals freely choose not to (which sounds pretty unlikely if they know what's going on, and in this scenario they do because motors have been used before), or Pogačar is the only one using a motor because the UCI can easily find motors and they've warned everyone else not to use them even though they all can see Pogačar is using one (which sounds like a massive leak waiting to happen), or motors are not part of the equation.

the problem with this is assuming that all motors give the same advantage forever. i think there can be an arms race with motors the same way that there is with doping. for instance, let's say Pogacar had a motor in 2021 where nobody could touch him. Jumbo said "F this" and showed up the next two years with a more powerful one and slaughtered him. so then UAE went to work developing an even stronger one for 2024 and suddenly Pogacar is going 4 minutes faster than undetectable EPO times. now both of them are putting 5 minutes into the field at a TDF prep race.

 

[E_F_]

the problem with this is assuming that all motors give the same advantage forever. i think there can be an arms race with motors the same way that there is with doping. for instance, let's say Pogacar had a motor in 2021 where nobody could touch him. Jumbo said "F this" and showed up the next two years with a more powerful one and slaughtered him. so then UAE went to work developing an even stronger one for 2024 and suddenly Pogacar is going 4 minutes faster than undetectable EPO times. now both of them are putting 5 minutes into the field at a TDF prep race.

What's worse with that inexplicable assumption is that battery and electric motor technologies are booming right now. The improvements are astronomical - and I'm sure the costs are as well, for the newest best stuff.

 

[hrotha]

the problem with this is assuming that all motors give the same advantage forever. i think there can be an arms race with motors the same way that there is with doping. for instance, let's say Pogacar had a motor in 2021 where nobody could touch him. Jumbo said "F this" and showed up the next two years with a more powerful one and slaughtered him. so then UAE went to work developing an even stronger one for 2024 and suddenly Pogacar is going 4 minutes faster than undetectable EPO times. now both of them are putting 5 minutes into the field at a TDF prep race.

I already addressed this. The main limiting factor in motors in the pro scene is the need to keep them concealed. If the UCI isn't even looking, that hurdle disappears, which means the only restraining force is your own sense of shame and self-worth as a professional sportsman (lol). Making the motor more powerful is a trivial problem if concealment is not a concern

 

[zlev11]

The UCI could easily put an end to the talk of motordoping. All it would take is one random test broadcasted live after one of those suspicious stages.
Just remove the fork, stick a camera inside the frame and everyone can see if there are any extra wires or batteries. I mean how hard can it be? Those tablets are only likely to increase suspicion.

because they're afraid of what they might find

 

[zlev11]

I already addressed this. The main limiting factor in motors in the pro scene is the need to keep them concealed. If the UCI isn't even looking, that hurdle disappears, which means the only restraining force is your own sense of shame and self-worth as a professional sportsman (lol). Making the motor more powerful is a trivial problem if concealment is not a concern

well, part of having a "better" motor also pertains to the concealment of it. yeah, if the UCI doesn't care then people are going to show up with nitrous on their bikes. but the UCI definitely does care, or at least pretends to care and that's where your argument doesn't really make sense to me. IMO, possibily what's happening is that the power a motor gives you compared to how small and/or hard to detect it is has gone way up in the past few years and there are big discrepancies between who has what. then it figures that Pogacar just happens to be on the team with the most money and is the one who is seemingly racing at his own speed. the point about shame being a limiting factor goes out the window when the guy doing it is now considered The Greatest Cyclist To Ever Live and the cycling media in general just seems to think the guy has no limitations on how fast he can go. then we get into the "too big to fail" aspect and yeah, that's where we are.

 

[Monoxidator]

What's crazy is that motor doping was never on my radar with Pogacar until the most recent spate of seated attacks ... it looked like regular doping to me. Now I'm almost convinced that it has to be part of the explanation. These seated attacks where his leg muscles aren't really even flexing and he's just powering away, then hammering at his head unit trying to find the secret hidden menu to turn it on or off ... very suspicious.

 

[hrotha]

well, part of having a "better" motor also pertains to the concealment of it. yeah, if the UCI doesn't care then people are going to show up with nitrous on their bikes. but the UCI definitely does care, or at least pretends to care and that's where your argument doesn't really make sense to me. IMO, possibily what's happening is that the power a motor gives you compared to how small and/or hard to detect it is has gone way up in the past few years and there are big discrepancies between who has what. then it figures that Pogacar just happens to be on the team with the most money and is the one who is seemingly racing at his own speed. the point about shame being a limiting factor goes out the window when the guy doing it is now considered The Greatest Cyclist To Ever Live and the cycling media in general just seems to think the guy has no limitations on how fast he can go. then we get into the "too big to fail" aspect and yeah, that's where we are.

For the record, that "lol" was meant to imply that a pro's sense of shame is not a powerful restraining force, the implication being "if the UCI isn't checking, then there are practically speaking no limiting factors at all (and hence it's hard to see how UAE could get that much of a technical edge on their rivals)"

 

[Ripper]

For the record, that "lol" was meant to imply that a pro's sense of shame is not a powerful restraining force, the implication being "if the UCI isn't checking, then there are practically speaking no limiting factors at all (and hence it's hard to see how UAE could get that much of a technical edge on their rivals)"

I'm not really into the motor theory. However, not unlike motorsports, perhaps the technological aspects of a motor is part of the scientific battle that takes place (better bikes, better equipment, etc).

I am sure there are lots of trade secrets in some of the teams (not motor related).

 

[proffate]

Good evening, you lovely people,

first timer here; I‘ve been a cycling fan since 1998, Ullrich and Pantani, that's how it all started, and now – at least since this year – I'm seriously ‘pissed and mad about it’.

A brief background: I trained at a high level for five years, 18-24 hours per week, Vo2Max was at 82-85, and from 2019 to 2023, I did about 2,600 hours of indoor training on the Smarttrainer.

Why am I telling you this?

I noticed something odd on stage 6 of Dauphine; keyword: Pogačar's attack.

Feel free to watch the video (preferably on a slightly larger screen).

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3C7M7PkRQL4&t=111s



Until about minute 1:44, Vingegaard is right behind Pogačar.

Then, at 1:46, Pogačar looks down at his bike computer (or whatever it is) and then pulls away decisively from poor Vingegaard – Pogačars performance simply explodes (seated).

It looks as if the motor is kicking in.

In fact, it's the same sequence of events that Pogačar performed immediately before his winning attack at Flèche Wallone 2025 (looking down, sudden explosion of power, seated).

But we already know all this. What I find really strange in the rest of the video:

At around 1:49 (and perhaps also at 1:52), his cadence seems to vary – it's hard to see, and only for about two or three pedal revolutions. In my opinion, for a very brief, almost imperceptible moment, his cadence becomes slightly faster and then drops slightly again, all without shifting gears (as he did before the attack, for example). It happens within second(s).

This observation – Pogačar does not shift gears, the power output remains consistently high (he pulls away significantly), but the cadence still varies – immediately reminded me of indoor training and the behaviour of my Tacx Neo (used in ERG-mode).

When riding intervals with the Tacx Neo 2 at high power – say anything above 350 watts; it becomes really clear with the Tacx Neo 2 when switching from 470 watts to 370 watts, for example – the chip sometimes doesn't work fast enough and a similar phenomenon occurs; with the Tacx Neo, because the full resistance is not immediately available at the start of the interval (= very high cadence for a short time), but is then present after one or two seconds (= so the cadence lowers).

With regard to the attack: Pogačar's hypothetical motor must – after being activated by him – have had an (unforeseen) power spike upwards (= sudden higher cadence because suddenly there is less ‚real‘ resistance from the mountain?) in order to ‘readjust’ immediately after one or two seconds (= lowering of the cadence because there is higher ‚real‘ resistance?).

Take a look for yourself. I find it hard to notice, but when you do, it’s telling. For me, this is a clear indication that a motor is being used. And perhaps, as an engineer, one can deduce how this motor might work.


PS:

According to Grok, it now seems possible to make only a certain part of a carbon frame conductive in order to operate a hidden motor without having to install power cables, plugs or similar.

Grok says:

„Carbon fibres in carbon frames are naturally slightly conductive, but the epoxy resin matrix insulates them. By using conductive resins or adding conductive materials such as graphene, carbon nanotubes or metal particles (e.g. silver or copper), electrical conductivity can be specifically increased. These materials can be embedded in specific areas of the frame to create current paths. During the manufacturing process of the carbon frame, conductive layers or strips can be incorporated into the carbon structure to conduct electricity from a power source (e.g. a hidden battery) to a motor."


PPS:

Very interesting in this context (I asked Grok about ownership of Colnago):

„In May 2020, bicycle manufacturer Colnago was acquired by Chimera Investments LLC, an investment fund based in Abu Dhabi, United Arab Emirates.“

Well, and UAE – which is ultimately what this is all about – happens to be the team's main sponsor.

And it is surely just a coincidence that Pogačar won his first Tour de France victory in 2020 – we all remember the notorious time trial up to ‘La Planche des Belles Filles’.

Quite clever, actually, to buy the bicycle manufacturer right away (to secretely implement the stuff you need).

And an idea that could only come from someone who has nothing to do with cycling, its fascination and history. Someone who simply asks themselves how stupid you have to be not to use a hidden motor.


Have a nice evening!

And this kind of post is exactly why I have a hard time believing the motor theories. There is literally nothing in that clip that anyone who has the common sense not to trust language models as a primary source of research would find unusual.

Oh and my waist measures 32" as long as we're sharing irrelevant personal trivia on our posts.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Indurain didn't gloat in the artificial limelight. He was humble and his competition knew he was better and not far off of their program.
Lance became polarizing for a number of reasons. His history in the US was well known and it included marginalizing any talent that might come to "his" team. Coupled with his management the aim was as much a legendary money-grab as being a winning bike racer. Textbook sociopath.

Yup, Indurain only won TTs at the Tour during his reign and let others fight for the rest of stages. Human aspect is very important: Indurain was silent, humble, not greedy to win stages and opposite to controversial. It was far less likely that anyone would want to bury his legend. Armstrong obviously was a complete opposite.

 

[Netserk]

Am I allowed to say neoliberalism on this forum?

Am I allowed to reply with cultural Marxism?

Both terms are used more or less equally poorly.

 

[HashRouge]

And this kind of post is exactly why I have a hard time believing the motor theories. There is literally nothing in that clip that anyone who has the common sense not to trust language models as a primary source of research would find unusual.

Oh and my waist measures 32" as long as we're sharing irrelevant personal trivia on our posts.

Yep, with you on this one. I can understand why people talk about motordoping, and I absolutely think it's something we should be wary of. However, I then see people sharing videoclips that they insist show "evidence" of it, and I really can't see anything. That clip looks to me like Pogacar setting a strong tempo, with Vingegaard trying to match it and then giving up. I'm not sure that is evidence of anything at all, except that Vingegaard couldn't match Pogacar's tempo.

 

[Peyroteo94]

Here we go again. I've never wanted a rider to crash until now tbh, I've got tired of this cheat rider and his *** team. Ruined cycling since 2020 and nothing has been done yet.

Don't you think this is too much? I will not report your post because this post was already seen and edited by a moderator but wishing a rider to crash out (and probably get injured) is too much.
I can understand people getting angry about this dominance but wishing a rider to crash out is not pretty!

 

[Gianetti_Is_The_Goat]

Don't you think this is too much? I will not report your post because this post was already seen and edited by a moderator but wishing a rider to crash out (and probably get injured) is too much.
I can understand people getting angry about this dominance but wishing a rider to crash out is not pretty!

Agreed. I despise Pogacar and his management as much as anyone, but wishing bodily harm is not done.

 

[noob]

Am I allowed to reply with cultural Marxism?

Both terms are used more or less equally poorly.

As far as I'm concerned what it is about is the Revenge of the nerds. The nerds won and now they're the jocks. No one is as cocky as an underdog who managed to win. As far as I'm concerned power doesn't exist. Only the striving for it.

This not politics but philosophy and biology to me

 

[Valv.Piti]

But now they are so fast Big Mig looks pedestrian by comparison and they are all cleans? And of course Pogacar is more ahead of the rest than they would be of Mig. Like if everything improved so much, mariginal gains, nutrition, training blabla wouldn't that make for the logical conclusion that the riders should be closer in ability since nobody can gain advantage via just practicing or eating better?

And that's not even accounting for the fact that riders of the past were on full-on epo programs, maybe picking the right protein is more impactful?

They are probably not, but this is pro cycling. You know what that entails. If you or anyone else get worked up over doping, its probably better to follow another sport, but then again, many sports probably have the same problem(s). I don't really care if they are doping or not. Motors are another thing altogether, and I don't believe they are using those for a second, but if that would be the case, then Im out.

 

[Salvarani]

Its a little infuriating reading the half baked theories on here. One of the highest profile riders in the sport is going to use an easily detectable hidden motor, requiring the knowledge of at least some of the mechanics on his team, very apparent style of riding when using it, and risk of discovery in a crash.

Alternatively, he could be using an almost undetectable doping regimen, known about by only him and his doctor, easily capable of producing the results we have seen as we know from past history.

No doubt hidden motors have been used in the past (cough, Cancellara), but not when everyone and their brother has known about them. Get a grip folks.

I couldnt agree more! Well put.

 

[YellowSocks]

The fact is none of these theories explain what he does with his nostrils every time he attacks.

 

[Psycat]

They are probably not, but this is pro cycling. You know what that entails. If you or anyone else get worked up over doping, its probably better to follow another sport, but then again, many sports probably have the same problem(s). I don't really care if they are doping or not. Motors are another thing altogether, and I don't believe they are using those for a second, but if that would be the case, then Im out.

How about gene doping/genetic enchancement from birth or otherwise? Because that's 100% in the cards. If it's not already what's deciding the races it certainly will be in the upcoming decades.

 

[Red Rick]

The idea that Cancellara got away with a hidden motor but Pogacar cannot be using it is *** hilarious.

I remember looking at the climbing time on the Muur, and it was slow as ass. Boonen just collapsed on the Muur cause ofcourse he did.

 

[Blobs]

Its a little infuriating reading the half baked theories on here. One of the highest profile riders in the sport is going to use an easily detectable hidden motor, requiring the knowledge of at least some of the mechanics on his team, very apparent style of riding when using it, and risk of discovery in a crash.

Alternatively, he could be using an almost undetectable doping regimen, known about by only him and his doctor, easily capable of producing the results we have seen as we know from past history.

No doubt hidden motors have been used in the past (cough, Cancellara), but not when everyone and their brother has known about them. Get a grip folks.

No. That's exactly the issue. What Pogacar has been doing since 2024 is so far beyond what even the most doped up riders of the past could achieve. If it is so easy to achieve, then why is he the only rider ever to achieve it?

If not for Pogacar (or even just without his sudden explosion in level in 2024), Vingegaard could very likely have gone down as the greatest Tour rider ever and yet Pogacar is destroying him while seemingly in zone 2.

It doesn't add up. Something else is going.

 

[VDB44]

The idea that Cancellara got away with a hidden motor but Pogacar cannot be using it is *** hilarious.

I remember looking at the climbing time on the Muur, and it was slow as ass. Boonen just collapsed on the Muur cause ofcourse he did.

Cancellara was motordoping 100%, Roubaix was way more obvious. In the Ronde it's the bikechanges giving it away. Losing a mechanic mid race in the hectics of the race they said, than suddenly the mechanic is next to the parcours in another village and Cancellara knows this and changes his bike, the one with a so called problem and with a mechanic on foot who has no way to communicate with Fabian. Ask anyone who was in those races and they say Cancellara motordoped.

 

[YellowSocks]

Because I've seen the subject raised several times here, with some people calling for the police to intervene, here is a quick rundown on French legislation. Feel free to add to this if you are more competent than I am.

Drug doping: In France, this is treated as drug trafficking. So there's a possibility of prison for traffickers, which may be anybody providing a product to a rider, and not much for consumers.

Genetic doping: French law was amended in 2023, in anticipation of the Olympic Games, to authorise screening tests for genetic modifications, which obviously raised many ethical questions. I don't know whether these tests are carried out, but they are now authorised.

Technological fraud: in 2017, some members of Parliament tabled a bill, asking for the regulations to be adapted to this new type of fraud. This bill was not adopted, as Parliament considered this type of fraud is already covered by the existing legal framework, and is therefore already subject to penalties.

Now you can call the police!

 

[Notarobot]

How about gene doping/genetic enchancement from birth or otherwise? Because that's 100% in the cards. If it's not already what's deciding the races it certainly will be in the upcoming decades.

Yes, it is CRISPR or motorbike.