Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[Raest]

He is not going to just win the Tour, he'll walk it. Nobody else have a chance. Not Visma, nor Quickstep.

 

[Stablo]

So is Remco using a motor, too? How about Jonas?

Are they doing things that pog is doing? Around the year peak shape? Every parcour? Dropping anyone at ease when ever they decide so? Always fresh like you have some extra watts to be within the treshold and not get fatiqued/go to the red?

 

[Oldman]

Are you serious? Nothing they’ve done is remotely comparable to Pogacar. They’re incredibly good riders, not implausibly good.

You all are ignoring they are both underraced and coming off of injuries. They have a 2 year history of mishaps. Because some here declare their "numbers" equal to another rider says little about how much of an effort they can apply until they've explored their limitations. 7 days of racing without a break in 7 days exposed those limits, convincingly. They have time to minimize those limits before the Tour.

How many days have each of them actually raced this year? Remco winning 2 Olympic road events in a week is not remotely comparable? Sure it is and Remco accomplished that while healthy and with impeccable riding technique and tactics, not a motor. Most here felt Pogacar avoided those races because he had little chance. The events Remco dominated are well within his skill profile. He is worshipped in Belgium for it.
Jonas rides a few select events with an incredible support system. He has won the Tour twice in circumstances when other riders' limitations/injuries where exposed as well. He's been injured much of the time since then. If he wins the Tour because Pogi bonks will you still care?

 

[Oldman]

Are they doing things that pog is doing? Around the year peak shape? Every parcour? Dropping anyone at ease when ever they decide so? Always fresh like you have some extra watts to be within the treshold and not get fatiqued/go to the red?

The same could be said for Wout and MvP. They've won many World championships between them as well as most every other major road event. It's because they are strong enough and train enough to have a 10 month competitive season. Doubt there are any motors there.
MvP comes very close or superior in all situations with Pogacar except GTs. 3 week races don't suit him and he applied his energy where it is useful when he does them. Autobus is his recovery strategy.

 

[Oldman]

I know there's a lot of money on the line and Tadej signed his big new contract extension last year but winning because I secretly had an e-bike would absolutely rob me of any joy I got from competing.

I can understand rationalizing doping because almost everybody else is probably doing it, it's been integral to the history of the sport and your body is still involved but resorting to using a motor seems immensely depressing.

I'm definitely not ruling it out as it's obviously happened before but I don't understand how anybody could use one, cross the line and celebrate even in the least.

....and not get caught. Any other attentive rider would catch it, especially being in long stints in direct company. Too many hands involved to make it a viable, unreported mode of cheating. And a very depressing prospect.

 

[Stablo]

You all are ignoring they are both underraced and coming off of injuries. They have a 2 year history of mishaps. Because some here declare their "numbers" equal to another rider says little about how much of an effort they can apply until they've explored their limitations. 7 days of racing without a break in 7 days exposed those limits, convincingly. They have time to minimize those limits before the Tour.

How many days have each of them actually raced this year? Remco winning 2 Olympic road events in a week is not remotely comparable? Sure it is and Remco accomplished that while healthy and with impeccable riding technique and tactics, not a motor. Most here felt Pogacar avoided those races because he had little chance. The events Remco dominated are well within his skill profile. He is worshipped in Belgium for it.
Jonas rides a few select events with an incredible support system. He has won the Tour twice in circumstances when other riders' limitations/injuries where exposed as well. He's been injured much of the time since then. If he wins the Tour because Pogi bonks will you still care?

Well if poggies best results from last year would be 2xolympic golds and 3rd in the Tour, I can promise you I wouldn't be writing here. The things he has been doing basically since 2020 are outrageous and never seen before. His at Eddie territory and imagine how professional cycling was on Merckx era and the level of competition was something else than today. And I think the reason he avoided the Olympics wasn't Remco, but something else, cause the track actually suited the all terrain specialist pog too. They say it was because Urska wasn't picked to the Slovenian team, but my suspicion is he wanted to avoid a race that is not controlled by the UCI. Or he was simply tired for once after two GT's.

 

[Stablo]

The same could be said for Wout and MvP. They've won many World championships between them as well as most every other major road event. It's because they are strong enough and train enough to have a 10 month competitive season. Doubt there are any motors there.
MvP comes very close or superior in all situations with Pogacar except GTs. 3 week races don't suit him and he applied his energy where it is useful when he does them. Autobus is his recovery strategy.

Indeed the fact that pog was close to MDVP in a race like PR is very crazy. The thing pog is doing is the same as MDVP or WVA would also start dominating GC's of the stage races. Pog also wins a lot! more than those two huge talents combined. I can't be sure about the e-assistance thing, even though I'm highly suspicious, but what im sure of is, that Gianetti&Co with UAEs unlimited resources, created an unseen monster and they have something special the others dont have. It has been highly likely since 2020 PDBF TT, but seasons 2024&2025 have made it absolutely clear. Visma managed to catched them for two Tours, but that's it and Visma&Vinge things can be discussed in the right thread.

 

[Stablo]

....and not get caught. Any other attentive rider would catch it, especially being in long stints in direct company. Too many hands involved to make it a viable, unreported mode of cheating. And a very depressing prospect.

I am still curious as how would the other riders catch it? If I order myself a state of art e-assisted roadbike and we would go for a 100km Sunday ride, you wouldn't notice that i have assistance, unless i would tell you.

 

[daking123]

Come on, it’s so obvious he’s riding with a motor. But sure, keep pretending Cancellara was the only one ever to cheat like that. Meanwhile Pogacar is doing carbon-copy seated attacks and no one bats an eye. Funny thing is he used to get out of the saddle to attack. Not anymore. Now he stays seated and magically puts out even more power. It’s a motor tucked neatly in the frame or the wheel or both.

 

[Cookster15]

His at Eddie territory and imagine how professional cycling was on Merckx era and the level of competition was something else than today

There were no concealed motors or oxygen vector doping on the scale we know today in Merckx's era yet he somehow still dominated the sport without such - how was that possible?

There was also serious competition back then albeit not on today's level which is normal progression of any professional sport. To say Raymond Poulidor was a farmer is an exaggeration. Poulidor was a serious rider as was Roger De Vlaeminck. Merckyx had to beat both those guys in setting his records but he didn't achieve that with a doping advantage.

 

[Cookster15]

Come on, it’s so obvious he’s riding with a motor. But sure, keep pretending Cancellara was the only one ever to cheat like that. Meanwhile Pogacar is doing carbon-copy seated attacks and no one bats an eye. Funny thing is he used to get out of the saddle to attack. Not anymore. Now he stays seated and magically puts out even more power. It’s a motor tucked neatly in the frame or the wheel or both.

On seated attacks I don't think this is anything new with Pogacar. Google: pogacar seated attack 2021. There is a bunch of stuff there, including from the 2021 Tour.

I remain unconvinced about motors. Why doesn't someone send a letter to the UCI (and copy a journalist)? Because I fail to see how motors are possible unless the UCI is complicit and not checking his bikes.

Any trained and qualified mechanic with access to Google (like those the UCI uses) will know what technology to look for. If they look for it it can't be hidden.

This was announced by the UCI to deter possible motor doping prior to the 2024 Tour:

The UCI unveils its programme to combat doping and technological fraud for the 2024 Tour de France

www.uci.org

It mentions pre and post stage checks. I think the highest sustained W/Kg for Pogacar was 2024 Tdf - stage 15 (someone please correct me if I am wrong). So if Pogacar had a motor when he won on PdB they should have found it. But if he didn't have a motor on PdB then likely he also didn't have a motor on the other occasions which are being questioned.

I am not ruling anything out, simply using facts, logic and reason. Saying "come on, it’s so obvious he’s riding with a motor" isn't helpful.

 

[Cookster15]

Something else on Pogacar's seated attack in stage 6 of the Dauphine - this time from Lanterne Rouge:

Pogačar Produces Best Performance of the Season So Far | Criterium du Dauphine Stage 6 2025 - Lanterne Rouge

Tadej Pogačar showed his dominance on Critérium du Dauphiné Stage 6 with a strong climbing performance on the…

lanternerouge.com

By his summer standards, Pogačar delivered only an average performance: 7.21 ᵉW/kg for 19:50 minutes. He is still not in top shape. Vingegaard did 6.78 ᵉW/kg for 20:51, while 18-year-old Paul Seixas finished 2:04 behind Pogačar with 6.26 ᵉW/kg.

Still not in top shape by his standards. So perhaps not so obvious.

 

[E_F_]

It's quite clear that disassembling the bikes isn't something the UCI want to do - and it isn't something the teams want them to do. It'd be quite another thing if they said "of course we take apart the bikes of the top three and the gc leader after every stage." They don't. Are the UCI complicit or do they just roll over? There was a story on Ghost in the Machine about some DS getting pissed when they (actually) checked a bike (for once). (Probaly just due to the inconvenience mind). I believe the UCI took that to heart. If I remember correctly the latest testing regime was announced with a statement where they took extra pride in being "non-intrusive" or something like that. Meanwhile I'm not at all convinced that their scanners can't be cheated. If I were to guess on a likely scenario in which Pogacar uses a motor, I'd say the UCI know but are afraid of killing the sport - perhaps they don't even have sufficient proof - and also they probably don't really want to piss off their benefactors in the UAE. And so they won't really do anything other than trying to convince them to stop and trying to keep up with the detection without "crossing the line" just to improve their bargaining position a bit. Obviously not a theory - just a scenario to show how corruption and such doesn't have to be a grand conspiracy.

 

[Cookster15]

It's quite clear that disassembling the bikes isn't something the UCI want to do

Well rival teams should call that out. Why aren't they? This is why motor doping doesn't add up. I have also noticed in this sport a dismissive attitude by many fans. Facts, logic and reason. Less use of words like @daking123 - "Come on, it’s so obvious he’s riding with a motor". If you say so but that isn't going to get us far.

 

[Cookster15]

There was a story on Ghost in the Machine about some DS getting pissed when they (actually) checked a bike (for once)

Saw those. Wasn't convinced.

Are the UCI complicit or do they just roll over?

Either way it has to be UCI complicity there is no other way to get away with it for so long. But the controlling factor is rival teams and sponsors. They are losing potentially millions. I haven't read a murmur from Visma, Quick Step et al.

If I remember correctly the latest testing regime was announced with a statement where they took extra pride in being "non-intrusive" or something like that

Again if that was true why haven't rival teams spoken out? Its nothing like the doping omerta - that protected rival teams and sponsors. If true, this is costing rival teams and their sponsor millions. And UAE while having huge resources thanks to the petroleum industry do not have control over courts in Europe or America either. And why would they over a 2nd tier sport like cycling anyway? Soccer, American football, basketball, baseball, golf and Formula 1 are also the level of competition I would expect UAE to want to play in to the extent of cheating to gain global exposure.

I'd say the UCI know but are afraid of killing the sport - perhaps they don't even have sufficient proof - and also they probably don't really want to piss off their benefactors in the UAE

So are we saying Pogacar only started using a motor from 2024 ? As for UAE being a benefactor of the UCI has that even been established? A Google search - (how is union cycliste internationale funded) returns the below:

The Union Cycliste Internationale (UCI) is primarily funded through a combination of revenue streams including its share of Olympic Games revenues, fees from organizing world championships, and revenue from its anti-doping program.

Where does UAE fit into this [cue dismissive replies] ?

Again, I am not saying Pogacar isn't motor doping just using basic facts, logic and reason. To me motor doping just doesn't add up.

 

[Cookster15]

His at Eddie territory and imagine how professional cycling was on Merckx era and the level of competition was something else than today

There were no concealed motors or oxygen vector doping on the level of sophistication or scale we know today in Merckx's era yet he somehow still dominated the sport without such - how was that possible?

There was also serious competition back then albeit not on today's level which is normal progression of any professional sport. For example, to say Raymond Poulidor was a farmer is an exaggeration. Poulidor was a serious rider as was Roger De Vlaeminck. Merckyx had to beat both those guys in setting his records but he didn't achieve that with a similar doping advantage as we are claiming here for Pogacar.

 

[HashRouge]

Well rival teams should call that out. Why aren't they? This is why motor doping doesn't add up. I have also noticed in this sport a dismissive attitude by many fans. Facts, logic and reason. Less use of words like @daking123 - "Come on, it’s so obvious he’s riding with a motor". If you say so but that isn't going to get us far.

Yeah, I'm with you on this. As I said upthread, I understand why people talk about motordoping, but then they point to "proof", which isn't proof at all, or doesn't show anything either way. I've heard a lot of talk about Pog's seated attacks and him "accelerating away" from everyone else. But I've started paying more attention to this recently and it just seems like he sets a high tempo, others can't match it and then they drop back. I don't think he suddenly speeds up at all - it's just that it looks like it when the riders behind him stop trying to match his pace. Now, of course you can debate how and why he is able to set such a strong tempo, but I certainly don't see it as any evidence of a motor.

As an aside, I think there is a lot the UCI could and should be doing here to give fans a bit more confidence. The first thing they need to do is actually publicise what doping controls happen at what races. Who is checked, what tests are carried out, what is found etc. If we knew Pog's bike was checked on stages where he puts in these huge performances, and perhaps if we could even see x-rays of the bike, it would go a long way to restoring some faith in the system. I don't think anti-doping control should be some big secret thing happening in the background - show us what you're doing, UCI!

 

[dr.eve]

The same could be said for Wout and MvP. They've won many World championships between them as well as most every other major road event. It's because they are strong enough and train enough to have a 10 month competitive season. Doubt there are any motors there.
MvP comes very close or superior in all situations with Pogacar except GTs. 3 week races don't suit him and he applied his energy where it is useful when he does them. Autobus is his recovery strategy.

Nah they are def not the same. MVDP starts talking about hoping to keep his form or about having to take rest already before he actually gets to PR. Pog after that smooth sails into the ardennes classics.

There is no one having this peak form at wish all year round except Pogacar.

For example we are all expecting Van Aert and Yates not to be at their best in the Tour after riding the Giro. I mean most see it as a negative factor for their potential form in the Tour. For Pogacar last year apparently this is not a factor and somehow it all makes sense?

Other than that I agree with Cookster I do not believe in motor doping. I believe there's biological ways to cheat still. People who think its impossible because of bloodpassports and tests.... well you only test what you test for. If you don't know what to look for you're not going to find it. I mean you can find that someone has high levels of something that makes said person an amazing athlete but you won't know what triggered it, nature, doping etc. Pogacar riding everything in zone 2 while the rest can't. Well maybe his physiology is that great maybe not. I don't know that. The only thing that obviously points to faul play to me is Gianetti, for the rest I have nothing...

 

[Fos]

Vingegaard will still win the Tour since he will still improve a lot until the Tour, plus the fact Visma will have something prepared for more later.

He absolutely needed this race in his legs, because he didn’t raced due a concussion since March. You can't replicate that in training. The Tour will be different.

Nevertheless, this guy called pogacar is the biggest cheater in the history of cycling and one of the biggest cheaters in the history of sport. The arabs control UCI at the moment. Money always buys everything.

It's not like he is more talented than Vingegaard or Remco, but simply he is got protection for everything like Armstrong had.

The difference this time is that pogacar created a fake persona to make empathy with the public and the media. UAE created a machine of propaganda, that's why he is called the tik tok armstrong. Everything is fake about this guy.

Armstrong did things in the wrong way. He was always in war against everybody, he didn't cares about showing a different and more "sweet" person. He wanted to kill everybody who went against him, and that's why they were always trying to catch him until 2013.


I give all the credit to Gianneti. He did things the wrong way with ricco, cobo, and piepoli, but this time with the money from the arabs, he created a machine.

He is controlling UCI indirectly through the arabs, he invested on social media, controlled the media, he invested with the money from the arabs, in the most sophisticated doping programm ever.
Everything is being done in the most professional way.

I don't believe in motors. They are not doing that.

If some day, he ends in the slovenian oprah, it will be the end of cycling, once and for all.

I think this time is there is less probability he will be catched like armstrong, but we never know in the future if the arabs suddenly don't care anymore about cycling, or a police raid.

I am only tired about this BS of pogacar being the most talented rider ever. Please, just stop with that BS, when he was worse has a junior compared with a lot of riders. I can stand more easily seeing him winning races, than hearing that BS of the most talented ever or delusional things like "the GOAT".

Fortunately he is not the most talented ever, otherwise he would win the Tour, and he is not gonna win, even if Visma and Vingegaard will have to go against everybody.

I guess the runner up of Tour will be the real winner. Hope they grant Victory to him, not like Armstrong era.

 

[Blobs]

How many days have each of them actually raced this year? Remco winning 2 Olympic road events in a week is not remotely comparable? Sure it is and Remco accomplished that while healthy and with impeccable riding technique and tactics, not a motor. Most here felt Pogacar avoided those races because he had little chance. The events Remco dominated are well within his skill profile. He is worshipped in Belgium for it.
Jonas rides a few select events with an incredible support system. He has won the Tour twice in circumstances when other riders' limitations/injuries where exposed as well. He's been injured much of the time since then. If he wins the Tour because Pogi bonks will you still care?

No. Winning two races within a week, where the best rider in the world is absent, is not comparable to dominating nearly every race, all year long, several seasons in a row.

 

[Stablo]

There were no concealed motors or oxygen vector doping on the scale we know today in Merckx's era yet he somehow still dominated the sport without such - how was that possible?

There was also serious competition back then albeit not on today's level which is normal progression of any professional sport. To say Raymond Poulidor was a farmer is an exaggeration. Poulidor was a serious rider as was Roger De Vlaeminck. Merckyx had to beat both those guys in setting his records but he didn't achieve that with a doping advantage.

Didn't Eddie get busted from what ever they had those days, propably just regular stimulants. Yes there was a other highly talented riders who had a professional attitude towards training and racing, but nowadays the number is at least tenfold.
Still the point was, that you can't really compare today to the level of competition from 60s&70s.

 

[Stablo]

On seated attacks I don't think this is anything new with Pogacar. Google: pogacar seated attack 2021. There is a bunch of stuff there, including from the 2021 Tour.

I remain unconvinced about motors. Why doesn't someone send a letter to the UCI (and copy a journalist)? Because I fail to see how motors are possible unless the UCI is complicit and not checking his bikes.

Any trained and qualified mechanic with access to Google (like those the UCI uses) will know what technology to look for. If they look for it it can't be hidden.

I'm not saying that it's absolutely sure his also e-doping, even though with all the things discussed here and elsewhere I'm leaning strongly towards it. Do you think that if the UCI was suspecting or even found something, that they would come out with it? At the moment I am even pretty sure, that they would hide their goldenboys regular bust too.

 

[Stablo]

Well rival teams should call that out. Why aren't they? This is why motor doping doesn't add up. I have also noticed in this sport a dismissive attitude by many fans. Facts, logic and reason. Less use of words like @daking123 - "Come on, it’s so obvious he’s riding with a motor". If you say so but that isn't going to get us far.

What if the other teams have done it too and now just have to suck it up. Or they still are and they're trying really hard to find what kind of assist does the state sponsored basically bike company owning team have. At least Visma 2023 looks suspicious(that Kuss attack on Vuelta🤌😂!!). It also looks like they were asked/demanded to downplay things a bit after that, but then pogster&gianetti struck back, making their numbers look like kindergarten stuff😉

 

[Stablo]

Something else on Pogacar's seated attack in stage 6 of the Dauphine - this time from Lanterne Rouge:

Pogačar Produces Best Performance of the Season So Far | Criterium du Dauphine Stage 6 2025 - Lanterne Rouge

Tadej Pogačar showed his dominance on Critérium du Dauphiné Stage 6 with a strong climbing performance on the…

lanternerouge.com

Still not in top shape by his standards. So perhaps not so obvious.

They have played it well, when those numbers look like a walk in the park now. Nothing to see here, just a casual 7,2w/kg for 20 mins in a prep race 😉🙏🏼

 

[Raest]

There were no concealed motors or oxygen vector doping on the level of sophistication or scale we know today in Merckx's era yet he somehow still dominated the sport without such - how was that possible?

There was also serious competition back then albeit not on today's level which is normal progression of any professional sport. For example, to say Raymond Poulidor was a farmer is an exaggeration. Poulidor was a serious rider as was Roger De Vlaeminck. Merckyx had to beat both those guys in setting his records but he didn't achieve that with a similar doping advantage as we are claiming here for Pogacar.

I am not arguing for motor doping but can't compare Merckx's era with the current. It's like comparing the best student in their school to the best student in the whole country. How many teams were back then with any serious backing and what was the talent pool? Nothing like these days. It was mostly Belgian and French riders.
Not only that but their understanding of nutrition, PED "assistance" and equipment was limited (at least compared to today's) and therefore any innovation, no matter how small could have a significant effect on performance.