Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[Stablo]

Out of interest is anyone actually watching the tour this year. I actually can't physically or mentally bring myself to watch it if he starts dominating. Which we all know he will. There is zero doubt in that.

I can't stay fully away, but when the invetable happens going to just resort for the replays and higlights. Also just laughing how the super juiced motogačar monster rides away nosebreathing, it's has become a clownshow.

 

[Stablo]

Hope these ramblings make sense!

Not really 😉🫠[[content deleted]]. Sure he has a very selective racing calender from spring classics to GT's only a couple of "good" days, otherwise out of this solar system. Also two GT's on a coffee ride and a WC with an almost 100km solo, blessed are the times we live in. I can't take this serious anymore🤡😂

 

[ColonelKidneyBeans]

Who doesnt ride all season now though? They all do, not withstanding injuries.

Everyone does.

And someone like MVDP races a lot more, counting his other disciplines as well. He races from December/Early Jan all the way to worlds on road and then some.

It is not very different at all.

Please. Who rides a whole classic season? Pogacar and Van der poel (And van der poel isn't doing the Italian fall classics). Who rides a whole classic season + stage races for GC? Pogacar. No one else does. While doing the giro-tour double last year, no less.

 

[ChewbaccaDefense]

Who doesnt ride all season now though? They all do, not withstanding injuries.

Everyone does.

And someone like MVDP races a lot more, counting his other disciplines as well. He races from December/Early Jan all the way to worlds on road and then some.

It is not very different at all.

I think it's the "I can drop everyone, all the time, anywhere I want, at wkg that has never been seen before" aspect of his 24/7/365 abilities, that causes the consternation...

 

[Salvarani]

A slight Devil's Advocate question here...does Pogacar actually race quite as much as some posters in this thread are suggesting? I keep reading this idea that he dominates from "March to October" and on all terrain, but it still seems to me that he's very selective about his race days, and has simply got better at the sort of races that he's always been good at.

I'm not in any way making the argument that he is clean, just that (to me), his dominance doesn't seem quite as egregious as one might assume from reading this thread. He doesn't seem to race more than other riders, and he's not winning flat races or bunch sprints (though again, you would think that he is from some posts here).

What seems to have led to the idea that he is dominant on all terrain is (I think?) his excellent Roubaix debut, but I struggle to see this as being quite as outlandish as some people suggest. Although it's flat, it's got lots of elements that seem to suit him quite well - very long, very fatiguing due to the cobbles, requires very good bike handling skills. We saw that he would be good on the cobbles in the 2022 Tour.

I tend to take the view that he's a very talented rider, but sometimes he's eyebrow-raisingly good and I don't really understand how he's eliminated his weaknesses on hot, high-altitude stages (although I'll reserve my full judgement on this until after this year's Tour). However, from what I read on here, some posters seem to think that he's a no-talent on a motorised bike, and therefore everything and anything he does is impossible. I suppose we are not all the same in our levels of scepticism?

Hope these ramblings make sense!

Great post! No ramblings at all. Made a lot of sense and logical.

 

[SorelyBoy]

Great post! No ramblings at all. Made a lot of sense and logical.

Who else does what Pogacar does? I mean, seriously? In terms of the number of races. The performances across all parcours types. The consistency of performances. Without apparent illness of drop in energy levels. The nature of his attacks either from distance or uphill, with no sign of a red zone. The lack of suffering. I’ll wait because you know the answer and it’s no one. It’s utterly unprecedented. And therefore unbelievable.

 

[Salvarani]

Who else does what Pogacar does? I mean, seriously? In terms of the number of races. The performances across all parcours types. The consistency of performances. Without apparent illness of drop in energy levels. The nature of his attacks either from distance or uphill, with no sign of a red zone. The lack of suffering. I’ll wait because you know the answer and it’s no one. It’s utterly unprecedented. And therefore unbelievable.

Plenty of riders have won monuments, GTs and other races throughout the history of the sport. It is not unprecedented.

He has been beaten and been fatigued a few times during his career. Other great riders like MVDP and Vinge has had his number on a few occasions.

Just because you are winning doesnt mean it is not a great effort behind it.

 

[ColonelKidneyBeans]

Plenty of riders have won monuments, GTs and other races throughout the history of the sport. It is not unprecedented.

He has been beaten and been fatigued a few times during his career. Other great riders like MVDP and Vinge has had his number on a few occasions.

Just because you are winning doesnt mean it is not a great effort behind it.

Pogacar isn't merely "winning monuments". He's wining flemish classics and the tour. A feat that only Merckx, Hinault, Coppi and Bobet have managed post second world war afaik.

 

[Salvarani]

Pogacar isn't merely "winning monuments". He's wining flemish classics and the tour. A feat that only Merckx, Hinault, Coppi and Bobet have managed post second world war afaik.

Exactly, and thats the type of rider he is.

 

[TrekCyclist]

He has been beaten and been fatigued a few times during his career.

If this already qualifies for not being "not normal", I guess then we can just skip anti doping testing all together, right?

 

[Salvarani]

If this already qualifies for not being "not normal", I guess then we can just skip anti doping testing all together, right?

No. I responded to a claim that Pog is never tired and doesnt suffer. It is wrong since it has happened a few times and he has lost. That was what I responded to.

 

[Unchained]

Who doesnt ride all season now though? They all do, not withstanding injuries.

Everyone does.

And someone like MVDP races a lot more, counting his other disciplines as well. He races from December/Early Jan all the way to worlds on road and then some.

It is not very different at all.

This is not a widely held opinion, most of notables Armstrong, Eddy, Bernard Hinault, list is very long all commenting about how little current racers participate.. The number of race days is down,
travel and surveillance is up.
** not saying this is true** but many current riders and teams talk about budget \ resources being a factor in racing success. Current diet and logistics have, teams like Visma and UAE have money to place support staff every @10-15 kilometers for handups, so riders like Pogacar never go without plentiful bottles, gels and other supplies. UCI needs to change rules for feeds and wheels out on the course. Teams and riders should not win, have distinct advantage being able to afford paid people standing on the road..I still think Pogacar would win but being able to get frequent needed supplies should not be a factor.

 

[Abedfo]

This is not a widely held opinion, most of notables Armstrong, Eddy, Bernard Hinault, list is very long all commenting about how little current racers participate.. The number of race days is down,
travel and surveillance is up.
** not saying this is true** but many current riders and teams talk about budget \ resources being a factor in racing success. Current diet and logistics have, teams like Visma and UAE have money to place support staff every @10-15 kilometers for handups, so riders like Pogacar never go without plentiful bottles, gels and other supplies. UCI needs to change rules for feeds and wheels out on the course. Teams and riders should not win, have distinct advantage being able to afford paid people standing on the road..I still think Pogacar would win but being able to get frequent needed supplies should not be a factor.

No offence but regular feeds don't make you ride away from other top GC riders like it's a Sunday club run.

 

[Unchained]

Out of interest is anyone actually watching the tour this year. I actually can't physically or mentally bring myself to watch it if he starts dominating. Which we all know he will. There is zero doubt in that.

There are lots of indicators that Pogacar will need to apply maximum pressure in first @9 days, Putting pressure on himself and team, immediately.
His team will play a significant role, his typical tactics will be to overheat the race early and throughout, likely burning and off weaker teams within first few days. His guaranteed dominance is not a given.
But realistically only a couple of teams are suited to race him for all 3 weeks.
I feel bad that historic perspective is not part of most of the conversation.
We all could be witnessing history.. And notably some historic figures effected most like LeMond, Hilnaut, Merckx, Armstrong are all complimentary and exciting about possible new records.

 

[Unchained]

No offence but regular feeds don't make you ride away from other top GC riders like it's a Sunday club run.

But the dozens of riders, directors say exactly the opposite, as I tried to say it's not an absolute factor but a component to overall success. Not having enough to eat and drink, and in a timely manor is a dramatic change in modern racing.. Not my opinion, just parroting riders and other teams that say their lack of resources ( money) is a factor.

 

[Abedfo]

But the dozens of riders, directors say exactly the opposite, as I tried to say it's not an absolute factor but a component to overall success. Not having enough to eat and drink, and in a timely manor is a dramatic change in modern racing.. Not my opinion, just parroting riders and other teams that say their lack of resources ( money) is a factor.

Historically imho when riders and team managers say they changed diet or training its practically saying we've got a new programme.

I seem to remember Sonny Colbrelli learning that carbs and training exist. He then went on a incredible run that ended in cardio vascular issues. Hmmm.

 

[Unchained]

No offence but regular feeds don't make you ride away from other top GC riders like it's a Sunday club run.

It's not if you get the @120-160 grams of carbs, but if you get them in proper uptake ratios, which many are saying can't be more than 18-30%, so salts, glucose and sucrose levels saturate and too many concentrated carbs cause body to shed water, so if you get 2 bottles, currently one is bomb, other is water, and often they are using spill bottles and ice bags for body cooling.. They would not intentionally pour carb mixed bottle over their head for cooling, but it happens.
And for Sunday club rides, absolute factor, amateurs even high level bonk frequently because they don't eat or drink regularly, and or eat, drink incorrectly, too much or not enough. Again not my opinion, it's commonly accepted that nutrition in cycling has changed almost 100% in @12-15 years.. That's regularly discussed.. Didn't think that was not accepted fact.

 

[Unchained]

Historically imho when riders and team managers say they changed diet or training its practically saying we've got a new programme.

I seem to remember Sonny Colbrelli learning that carbs and training exist. He then went on a incredible run that ended in cardio vascular issues. Hmmm.

Colbrelli is an excellent example of era changes.. @2009 start and in 2025, use of diet, training targets, complicated FTP, blood data, training volume, race days are likely very, very different than 2009. And most pro riders from that era start say that race tactics are very very different, no traditional riding warm up, instead very high speeds and efforts from start of the race. A person like 35 year old Sonny would surely tell a story about massive changes since he started, training, eating, body weight, off season, cross training and most say the use of data is night and day different from 2009 vs 2025.

 

[Cookster15]

A feat that only Merckx, Hinault, Coppi and Bobet have managed post second world war afaik.

The last of those 4 riders since WWII is Hinault. Maybe we are long overdue for another?

 

[Gianetti_Is_The_Goat]

Plenty of riders have won monuments, GTs and other races throughout the history of the sport. It is not unprecedented.

He has been beaten and been fatigued a few times during his career. Other great riders like MVDP and Vinge has had his number on a few occasions.

Just because you are winning doesnt mean it is not a great effort behind it.

He's winning next to everything, usually with a considerable advantage. His 2024 season was better than Merckx 1969 season, when there was no specialisation and no participation outside of Western Europe. So no, we have never seen anything like this. It's not even close.

 

[Salvarani]

He's winning next to everything, usually with a considerable advantage. His 2024 season was better than Merckx 1969 season, when there was no specialisation and no participation outside of Western Europe. So no, we have never seen anything like this. It's not even close.

There were specialists back then. There were riders that was specialized towards classics, GC or sprints. Few could compete in everything, and those that could are legends of the sport. Which is not really surprising and makes sense that they would be, because of what they won.

What is specialized about riders being able to compete over multiple disciplines these days? We have how many MTB, CC or track guys competing on road? Riders changing sports all together and going far as pros in cycling.

That Pog had a better season, just speaks to the greatness currently happening.

 

[Cookster15]

He's winning next to everything, usually with a considerable advantage. His 2024 season was better than Merckx 1969 season, when there was no specialisation and no participation outside of Western Europe

There was no oxygen vector doping during Merckx's era either - so how did he dominate? Maybe he was simply more talented? It certainly wasn't motors.

Not sure why specialization and participation outside of Western Europe is relevant. Both can lift the overall level of the peloton (specialization to a greater extent) but these factors don't necessarily level the playing field between more and less talented* individuals.

Participation outside of Western Europe has been the case since Lemond - over 30 years. Pogacar won the Tour before his 22nd birthday - 2nd youngest ever. The year before Pogacar won ToC on Mt Baldy as a virtual unknown as a 20 year old - it was the first time I'd heard of him.

*As for talent, I have read opinions posted in The Clinic who say response to doping is a talent. And these people are not Pogacar fans. Ultimately the entire reason for debate here is argument over a level playing field. There are teams other than UAE who are potentially losing a lot of money if UAE have an unfair advantage with Pogacar. So the doping omerta doesn't hold. But we are not going to solve their problem here.

But every day I don't read about motor doping conspiracies is a good day

 

[Gianetti_Is_The_Goat]

There were specialists back then. There were riders that was specialized towards classics, GC or sprints. Few could compete in everything, and those that could are legends of the sport. Which is not really surprising and makes sense that they would be, because of what they won.

What is specialized about riders being able to compete over multiple disciplines these days? We have how many MTB, CC or track guys competing on road? Riders changing sports all together and going far as pros in cycling.

That Pog had a better season, just speaks to the greatness currently happening.

Everyone rode a similar program at that time. Look it up.

"That Pog had a better season, just speaks to the greatness currently happening."
Not sure whether you're trolling.
If you think that it's normal that a rider doesn't have a single bad racing day in 18 months and beats every competitor easily, then I'd love to know why he didn't show any greatness in his first three seasons as a bike rider. Maybe Gianetti and Matxin are just inspiring leaders.

 

[Gianetti_Is_The_Goat]

There was no oxygen vector doping during Merckx's era either - so how did he dominate? Maybe he was simply more talented? It certainly wasn't motors.

Not sure why specialization and participation outside of Western Europe is relevant. Both can lift the overall level of the peloton (specialization to a greater extent) but these factors don't necessarily level the playing field between more and less talented* individuals.

Participation outside of Western Europe has been the case since Lemond - over 30 years. Pogacar won the Tour before his 22nd birthday - 2nd youngest ever. The year before Pogacar won ToC on Mt Baldy as a virtual unknown as a 20 year old - it was the first time I'd heard of him.

*As for talent, I have read opinions posted in The Clinic who say response to doping is a talent. And these people are not Pogacar fans. Ultimately the entire reason for debate here is argument over a level playing field. There are teams other than UAE who are potentially losing a lot of money if UAE have an unfair advantage with Pogacar. So the doping omerta doesn't hold. But we are not going to solve their problem here.

But every day I don't read about motor doping conspiracies is a good day

Your explanation misses the point completely. I'm not even going to bother.

 

[Salvarani]

Everyone rode a similar program at that time. Look it up.

"That Pog had a better season, just speaks to the greatness currently happening."
Not sure whether you're trolling.
If you think that it's normal that a rider doesn't have a single bad racing day in 18 months and beats every competitor easily, then I'd love to know why he didn't show any greatness in his first three seasons as a bike rider. Maybe Gianetti and Matxin are just inspiring leaders.

Riders ride the same races for different reasons. They did that back then as well.

He has had bad days, as been stated. Other great riders have been beaten him a few times. Right now he is at his very peak. It is not strange that a rider of his talent is winning races. He is on top of his game at the moment and winning a lot of big races.

Your claim is also wrong. He was good as a junior, progressed in U23s and won the biggest race. Already did well in pro races, before going pro were he started to win early on.