Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[Krzysztof_O]

The funniest one is literally every single one of Usain Bolt's competitors, teammates and trainers getting busted but the Golden Boy is sparkly cleanz.

Lightning Bolt was so talented that he hardly ever trained. McNuggets and Coca-Cola were his rocket fuel.

 

[Salvarani]

All Im saying is that Pogi dominance over the others is the same as other GOAT dominance compared to others.

Meaning Pogi is not more dominant over the rest of the field as Messi and Ronaldo were. Or Michael Jordan was.

Or Maradona and Pele.

Wayne Gretsky.

 

[Peyroteo94]

The funniest one is literally every single one of Usain Bolt's competitors, teammates and trainers getting busted but the Golden Boy is sparkly cleanz.

Exactly. I told this earlier in one of my posts. Bolt's rise screams doping. Comparing his race in Osaka to the 200m race he did in Beijing... is pure doping.

 

[VDB44]

All Im saying is that Pogi dominance over the others is the same as other GOAT dominance compared to others.

Meaning Pogi is not more dominant over the rest of the field as Messi and Ronaldo were. Or Michael Jordan was.

Comparing a game vs a sport.
They did pump Messi full of growth hormones as a youth player — otherwise there would have been no talk of all those Ballon d'Ors.

In cycling, doping has perhaps the most significant effect — along with weightlifting and athletics.
And Pogi improving by 10% between 2023 and 2024 sets off all the alarm bells.

 

[Lorzenz08]

Comparing a game vs a sport.
They did pump Messi full of growth hormones as a youth player — otherwise there would have been no talk of all those Ballon d'Ors.

In cycling, doping has perhaps the most significant effect — along with weightlifting and athletics.
And Pogi improving by 10% between 2023 and 2024 sets off all the alarm bells.

Romain Bardet has zero stake yet here is what he is saying :

"I'm surprised, but at the same time, he has harnessed the immense potential we saw in him. Apparently, he didn't know how to train. Now he knows. He's harnessing the potential we've seen in recent years in his first two Tours de France, which he's winning in style. "

Bardet : "Apparemment, Pogacar ne savait pas s'entraîner"

Romain Bardet a été, comme beaucoup si ce n'est tous, impuissant face à Tadej Pogacar en 2024. Le Français de DSM-Firmenich PostNL nous en parle, entre autres.

www.eurosport.fr

----

Also, a lot of them improved by 10% or more. 2023 Geraint Thomas would destroy 2018 Geraint Thomas.

 

[Lorzenz08]

Honestly the funniest thing in all of this is 90% of the critics come from people who wouldnt say a word if one of the athlete of their own country, or country they admire, would be the GOAT.

 

[Netserk]

Honestly the funniest thing in all of this is 90% of the critics come from people who wouldnt say a word if one of the athlete of their own country, or country they admire, would be the GOAT.

Is one of your imagined critics with you in the room?

 

[Ripper]

While already working with Gianetti and UAE.

Before, he was nothing crazy

I've said it before and I'll say it again - Vogo's biggest jumps came from puberty (which hit him during his TdF breakthrough ... talk about amazing timing!) and then from introducing intervals in the 2023/24 off season. This year or next he will introduce Billat intervals and likely take another minute off his competitors.

Pingo has derived his improvements over increasing love/family time!

(see what I did there?)

 

[Ripper]

It hurt forever when we are talking about doping. The first sport people think when they talk about doping is cycling. It's automatic. General People associate cycling with doping without knowing sports like swimming, track & field, biathlon, etc are full of dopers, maybe even more than cycling since no other sport has more controls and tests than cycling.

I agree, it certainly created an inflection point on this topic whereby cycling was the bad sport. Before that I think it might have been Track and Field (poor Ben Johnson).

I mean, of cycling is dirty and triathlon and swimming are clean, I mean c'mon, you can't be dirty swimming in pools all the time!

Sports! It is crazy!

 

[Ripper]

Honestly the funniest thing in all of this is 90% of the critics come from people who wouldnt say a word if one of the athlete of their own country, or country they admire, would be the GOAT.

Oh enough with the tit-for-tat national stuff (and this is not only aimed at you).

I cannot see any of my Country-of-origin's racers on a track to be GOAT-ish. Could be entertaining if someone found themselves there.

And just so no one gets their knickers in a twist, I had to deal with the Canadian MTB Dopage insanity . I do see guys like Woodsy and Gee-Unit getting some amazing results, which makes me go "hmmm", but they are a long, long way from the top dogs.

Finally, I find I comment a fair bit on this thread even though I am not really commenting on the specific subject of the thread. So much of this conversation could be had in the general doping thread (or state of the peloton).

 

[VDB44]

Honestly the funniest thing in all of this is 90% of the critics come from people who wouldnt say a word if one of the athlete of their own country, or country they admire, would be the GOAT.

haha, my favorite riders from the past all doped

But UAE is just ridiculous and making my favorite sport look ridiculous, that's what 90% of the critics hate.

 

[VDB44]

Also, a lot of them improved by 10% or more. 2023 Geraint Thomas would destroy 2018 Geraint Thomas.

Geraint Thomas best climbing performances: Monte Bondonne (Giro 23), La Plagne (Dauphiné 21), Val Thorens (TDF 20), Monte Termenillo (Tirreno 17), Alpe d'Huez (TDF 22), Plateau de Beille (TDF 15)

Pogi: Plateau de Beille (TDF 24), Isola 2000 (TDF 24), Combloux (Dauphiné 25), Sormano (Lombardy 24), Couillole (TDF 24), Valmenier (Dauphiné 25)

Something changed at UAE in 2024 and on that level it's not just eating more bars and gels

 

[Stablo]

haha, my favorite riders from the past all doped

But UAE is just ridiculous and making my favorite sport look ridiculous, that's what 90% of the critics hate.

This exactly and I don't understand how it is so hard to get. I can promise everyone if someone from any nationality starts doing pog things, I would be annoyed and very skeptical. Gianetti&UAE makes it just worse, it's like we are watching Ricco vol 3.0 and no one is doing anything. Sometimes I also think that it would be hilarious, if someone like Remco(Seixas?) would join UAE&Gianettis magic potion club and got an Almeida like jump in performance, that would put him right there in pog(vinge)territory. Or even a jump like poggie got in 23/24 winter, as an seasoned pro and multiple monument&GT winner already.

 

[Stablo]

Exactly. I told this earlier in one of my posts. Bolt's rise screams doping. Comparing his race in Osaka to the 200m race he did in Beijing... is pure doping.

That's actually true. And how does that compare to the fact, that Bolt was still way more talented than pog as a junior. Don't you think that pogs rise screams doping even louder then.

Usain Bolt - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

You can check the part early years from there, cause you said earlier it was only my opinion, when in fact he was extremely good already at 15years old, while not even taking the sports seriously yet. Breaking many records and beating competition several years older.

 

[E_F_]

Honestly the funniest thing in all of this is 90% of the critics come from people who wouldnt say a word if one of the athlete of their own country, or country they admire, would be the GOAT.

I wasn't on this forum when Jonas was winning the tour, but I can assure you that I was certain he was doping, and that his comments to the media about doping pissed me off.

 

[Stablo]

Romain Bardet has zero stake yet here is what he is saying :

Except moving straight to Eurosports commentary team, don't bite the hand that feeds you. I also think that the didn't know how to train- explanation makes the marginal gaines thing seem very beliavable. Pog had spended five seasons in the biggest team of cycling, under Gianetti&Matxin, but didn't know how to train for sure.

 

[Ripper]

Except moving straight to Eurosports commentary team, don't bite the hand that feeds you. I also think that the didn't know how to train- explanation makes the marginal gaines thing seem very beliavable. Pog had spended five seasons in the biggest team of cycling, under Gianetti&Matxin, but didn't know how to train for sure.

I thought Bardet was being a bit sarcastic about apparently just learning to train? Like he also thought it was silly

 

[YellowSocks]

Romain Bardet has zero stake yet here is what he is saying :

"I'm surprised, but at the same time, he has harnessed the immense potential we saw in him. Apparently, he didn't know how to train. Now he knows. He's harnessing the potential we've seen in recent years in his first two Tours de France, which he's winning in style.

Don't you sense a slight hint of irony in the sentence you underlined? I guess you forgot to underline apparently.

Beware of Bardet, he can be witty at times.

 

[Rackham]

I thought Bardet was being a bit sarcastic about apparently just learning to train? Like he also thought it was silly

The story of Romain Bardet is one of intrigue.

So it starts like this: Once upon a time, Romain Bardet insinuated Rog and others were racing at unnatural speeds like they were in motto gp (Bardet twitted as much after Rog won Emilia a few years ago).

Then, Evenepoel, Pog and others started treating Bardet with reverence and respect. Now Bardet likes Evenepoel and Pog.

The end.

 

[peterfin]

Romain Bardet has zero stake yet here is what he is saying :

"I'm surprised, but at the same time, he has harnessed the immense potential we saw in him. Apparently, he didn't know how to train. Now he knows. He's harnessing the potential we've seen in recent years in his first two Tours de France, which he's winning in style. "

Bardet : "Apparemment, Pogacar ne savait pas s'entraîner"

Romain Bardet a été, comme beaucoup si ce n'est tous, impuissant face à Tadej Pogacar en 2024. Le Français de DSM-Firmenich PostNL nous en parle, entre autres.

www.eurosport.fr

----

Also, a lot of them improved by 10% or more. 2023 Geraint Thomas would destroy 2018 Geraint Thomas.

Bardet is a nice guy. The most important message here is that he is surprised. The other stuff is what he hears and reads elsewhere. Apparently we need to believe that Pogi was basically doing zone 2 training while winning TdFs. Then came the battle with trained Vingegaard. Prophet Mou told us what happened next. Pogi suddenly learned how to train. The whole UAE team suddenly learned how to train up to the point that experienced Bardet actually needs to say that he doesn't know how to train.

 

[YellowSocks]

The story of Romain Bardet is one of intrigue.

So it starts like this: Once upon a time, Romain Bardet insinuated Rog and others were racing at unnatural speeds like they were in motto gp (Bardet twitted as much after Rog won Emilia a few years ago).

Then, Evenepoel, Pog and others started treating Bardet with reverence and respect. Now Bardet likes Evenepoel and Pog.

The end.

He never says anything about Evenepoel except for his admiration, but he slips in a little joke about Pogacar from time to time, in which I hear some incredulity. I could be wrong of course.

 

[Rackham]

He never says anything about Evenepoel except for his admiration, but he slips in a little joke about Pogacar from time to time, in which I hear some incredulity. I could be wrong of course.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1444380549817176069

View: https://x.com/romainbardet/status/1444380549817176069


I never got the Bardet schmoozing that goes on tbh. I mean some consistency over the years might have helped here because as it stood, all his comments about Rog achieved was naturally fuelling doping rumors. Which again is whatever if that's what he wanted but acting like Pog is super normal now is a bit 'too much' as the French say.

The caveat here is I'm a Rog fan so this sort of stuff makes me slightly salty.

 

[HashRouge]

Before he was only 18 years old. For sure Pogi has to be doping but I don’t think we can read too much because any doping gains are masked by natural variation as he matures at such a young age. That is my issue with reasoning by the OP for this thread. Someone the other day mentioned the 2016 junior WC when he finished like 50th? Other than maybe it was a sprinter friendly course, when I look at the names there were maybe two in the top 25 or so who I recognised in the current peloton. One was Harry Sweeney the other McNuggets.

I went and looked this up on pro cycling stats when it was posted, because I was interested to see the context. IIRC, something like positions 26- 82 (?) all finished on the same time. So basically he just finished with the peloton.

I've never found his junior results too suspicious. To me it seems logical that you might see adolescents developing at different speeds. There are so many extra factors in cycling that also need to be factored in, like learning to ride in the peloton and developing racing tactics and instinct.

It's the 2023 to 2024 (and on to 2025) improvement that has made me twitchy. I don't know enough about watts/ kg and VO2 max etc to say what is or isn't possible, but I wish it didn't all look quite so effortless. The best thing that could happen for my enjoyment of cycling is for him to have an off day at the Tour and ship some time to JV, and then for the final result to be close between them (no matter who wins in the end). I liked him the most in 2022/ 2023 - he's a really fun rider when he's not just able to ride away from everyone easily.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

@Rackham During Emilia it was only a moped. MotoGP era started on Plateau de Beille last year!

 

[Stablo]

I thought Bardet was being a bit sarcastic about apparently just learning to train? Like he also thought it was silly

That's actually true now that I read it with translation. It was also from last autumn, but first I thought it was a new interview, cause it got posted in here now to explain teddys rise.