Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[Krzysztof_O]

I agree to some extent, but I also think there's a clear stylistic element to riders in that. Froome always looked laboured. Nibali could look really smooth before looking down and suddenly pedaling squares. I think Roglic has been misread as riding easily quite a few times too.

Now with Pogacar, I'll say that I flat out disagree when people say he looked easy on Combloux, he rode away easily, and then he was struggling mightily just like everyone else becasue everyone smashed head first into that climb. Like he had his head on a swivel on the middle section of that climb.

Then for the rest, to me looking easy just means at the most that it's a controlled effort, which still can easily just mean a threshold effort, so it doesn't necessarily mean they can just go minutes faster. And Pogacar specifically is a guy who has an almost pathological need to show off so he probably does every indoor training in front of the mirror trying not to grimace.

Pogacar was going really hard on Combloux and definitely didn't hold back wanting to gain as much time as possible. I think most people said he looked easier the next day (Valmeinier). He slowed down at the end and effort intensity was lower (but it's also expected as the climb duration was longer). As you said, it could've been close to threshold (maybe somewhat below) and he could've looked good at this intensity.

 

[Red Rick]

Pogacar was going really hard on Combloux and definitely didn't hold back wanting to gain as much time as possible. I think most people said he looked easier the next day (Valmeinier). He slowed down at the end and effort intensity was lower (but it's also expected as the climb duration was longer). As you said, it could've been close to threshold (maybe somewhat below) and he could've looked good at this intensity.

Yeah, in a threshold effort riders will look easy enough before the actually hit the point of exhaustion. And Pogacar giving back 15s on Valmenier if anything may indicate that it wasn't that easy and that he'd done enough in terms of training terms - and you don't get better from submax efforts mind you

 

[Rackham]

If you guys are right about Pog being on the limit... then Rog wins the Tour.

So CyclistAbi is the new mou, i.e. the prophet we deserve but might not need.

Actually there's a part of me that almost doesn't want Rog to beat these freaks because the fallout in terms of people screaming D O P A G E would be quite hypocritical tbh. I'm sort of happy Rog's clinic thread only has like two dozen pages or so.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

If you guys are right about Pog being on the limit... then Rog wins the Tour.

So CyclistAbi is the new mou, i.e. the prophet we deserve but might not need.

Actually there's a part of me that almost doesn't want Rog to beat these freaks because the fallout in terms of people screaming D O P A G E would be quite hypocritical tbh. I'm sort of happy Rog's clinic thread only has like two dozen pages or so.

Pog held back sth on stage 7 but me and Rick dont think the look was evidence that his reserves were big.

So maybe dont be worried about Rogla victory yet

 

[Rackham]

Pog held back sth on stage 7 but me and Rick dont think the look was evidence that his reserves were big.

So maybe dont be worried about Rogla victory yet

Oof thank god for that. The myth of Roglacism has ascended to a place where the Tour de France is but a minor speed bump on the road towards the Vuelta.

Rog winning the Tour might get in the way of the real record in Spain. So we wouldn't want that.

 

[Blobs]

The thing is I had a look at a grainy youtube upload of Pantani's AdH record. I didn't really see much there. To me he more or less just looked like he was just out riding his bike, while his opponents were all ***ed. Looked pretty Pogly, Poggish to me...

Looks like he's making a serious effort to me.

 

[Extinction]

The thing is I had a look at a grainy youtube upload of Pantani's AdH record. I didn't really see much there. To me he more or less just looked like he was just out riding his bike, while his opponents were all ***ed. Looked pretty Pogly, Poggish to me...

No suffering, huh, you mean like this?

 

[Rackham]

The pain face yes or no question isn't something I ever entertained as an actual valid conversation. Gérard Holtz on France 2 one made a ridiculous claim post-Lance that riders were grimacing again unlike during the 'dark years'.

But it's absurd. A/Lance was often hiding his face behind big dark glasses and B/just take a look at him on Luz Ardiden 2003:

That's the face of a man with EPO in his veins... and suffering immensely anyway. Yeah, it still hurts. It's just the performance threshold is higher than non-doped. The pain remained the same.

 

[E_F_]

The pain face yes or no question isn't something I ever entertained as an actual valid conversation. Gérard Holtz on France 2 one made a ridiculous claim post-Lance that riders were grimacing again unlike during the 'dark years'.

But it's absurd. A/Lance was often hiding his face behind big dark glasses and B/just take a look at him on Luz Ardiden 2003:

That's the face of a man with EPO in his veins... and suffering immensely anyway. Yeah, it still hurts. It's just the performance threshold is higher than non-doped. The pain remained the same.

Only relevant to me in terms of motor-doping tbf. And I agree for sure that Pantani did actually look laboured in those pictures. With Riis on Hautacam, even though he's riding like he's in a video game, you can see that his blood has reached a level of viscosity that might actually be outside the definition of a liquid.

 

[thunder60%]

There been numerous riders who dominated the sport like Pog is doing at the moment.

Coppi, Merckx, Hinault... they all won monuments and GTs. A lot of other races as well. Throughout every season at their peak.

I have been reading the forums for the last two or three years. I like a lot of the posts, so I'm going to add my thoughts too.

We are talking about two completely different periods of time.

Cycling is super dependent on data, and these days, you can test thousands of people around the world to find the best talent. Whatever you need, like power meters or metabolic carts, you can use these tools to scout the best talent from all over the world.
The understanding of specific work that an cyclist must to do for a certain type of race/event improved a lot too. The number of coaches that understand nutrition, power metrics, recovery, etc at the highest level exploded in the last 15 years, and with that you have a lot more athletes that reach the WT like a highly chiseled diamond and close to their highest potential.

What I want to say, is that today we can search for talent earlier, and in many countries ... an improve this highly talented "gems" early. So today the competitions are packed with talent and people on the right side of the distribution curve.

In this kind of environment (packed with talent), 1 cyclist constantly making minced meat of the competition, in all types of races and all over the year is totally unespected and highly improbable.

 

[Salvarani]

I have been reading the forums for the last two or three years. I like a lot of the posts, so I'm going to add my thoughts too.

We are talking about two completely different periods of time.

Cycling is super dependent on data, and these days, you can test thousands of people around the world to find the best talent. Whatever you need, like power meters or metabolic carts, you can use these tools to scout the best talent from all over the world.
The understanding of specific work that an cyclist must to do for a certain type of race/event improved a lot too. The number of coaches that understand nutrition, power metrics, recovery, etc at the highest level exploded in the last 15 years, and with that you have a lot more athletes that reach the WT like a highly chiseled diamond and close to their highest potential.

What I want to say, is that today we can search for talent earlier, and in many countries ... an improve this highly talented "gems" early. So today the competitions are packed with talent and people on the right side of the distribution curve.

Yup! So a great rider with amazing talent, that has all the tools and all the available things at their disposal in regard to training, equipment and so on. It shows it is possible, indeed. Just like the riders and great legends of the past. Thank you for that post and welcome to the forum.

 

[thunder60%]

If we look closely to his results since 2023 it´s hard to believe in his palmares ... even the 2023 season was bonkers. If he didn´t crash at LBL an won that race?

If we look at 2023, 2024 and 2025 the palmares is unbelievable and scary. The guy doesn´t fatigue and need breaks. It´s full gas all over the season.

 

[pelotonIQ]

If we look closely to his results since 2023 it´s hard to believe in his palmares ... even the 2023 season was bonkers. If he didn´t crash at LBL an won that race?

If we look at 2023, 2024 and 2025 the palmares is unbelievable and scary. The guy doesn´t fatigue and need breaks. It´s full gas all over the season.

Truly the GOAT in cycling.

 

[thunder60%]

Please. Who rides a whole classic season? Pogacar and Van der poel (And van der poel isn't doing the Italian fall classics). Who rides a whole classic season + stage races for GC? Pogacar. No one else does. While doing the giro-tour double last year, no less.

I think he could have won the Vuelta too, but that would would be extremely greedy and cross a bridge too far.

 

[thunder60%]

No offence but regular feeds don't make you ride away from other top GC riders like it's a Sunday club run.

For sure ... in Dauphine mountain stages after the ITT, he looked like a dude on a Sunday morning that went to buy a baguette and a newspaper, and then, happily, went for a relaxed stroll with the baguette and newspaper in his armpit ... and in the process destroying Jonas and Remco (and other climbers) like they were juniors.

 

[Extinction]

The pain face yes or no question isn't something I ever entertained as an actual valid conversation. Gérard Holtz on France 2 one made a ridiculous claim post-Lance that riders were grimacing again unlike during the 'dark years'.

But it's absurd. A/Lance was often hiding his face behind big dark glasses and B/just take a look at him on Luz Ardiden 2003:

That's the face of a man with EPO in his veins... and suffering immensely anyway. Yeah, it still hurts. It's just the performance threshold is higher than non-doped. The pain remained the same.

But with recent Pog it's the lack of "suffering immensely" that's the question. Apparently just because he "learned to train."🤣

 

[Extinction]

I have been reading the forums for the last two or three years. I like a lot of the posts, so I'm going to add my thoughts too.

We are talking about two completely different periods of time.

Cycling is super dependent on data, and these days, you can test thousands of people around the world to find the best talent. Whatever you need, like power meters or metabolic carts, you can use these tools to scout the best talent from all over the world.
The understanding of specific work that an cyclist must to do for a certain type of race/event improved a lot too. The number of coaches that understand nutrition, power metrics, recovery, etc at the highest level exploded in the last 15 years, and with that you have a lot more athletes that reach the WT like a highly chiseled diamond and close to their highest potential.

What I want to say, is that today we can search for talent earlier, and in many countries ... an improve this highly talented "gems" early. So today the competitions are packed with talent and people on the right side of the distribution curve.

In this kind of environment (packed with talent), 1 cyclist constantly making minced meat of the competition, in all types of races and all over the year is totally unespected and highly improbable.

Okay, but...drum roll...even if they were just chumps before (if we take your analysis to its natural conclusion), they were still chumps on EPO, GH, insulin, testosterone, reinfused blood, etc. and yet this new Gen Z is crushing them clean. 😏

 

[Salvarani]

Truly the GOAT in cycling.

Great talent but also better understanding of nutrition, training and new/improved equipment. It makes a great difference these days. Upwards and onwards in the development.

 

[Rackham]

But with recent Pog it's the lack of "suffering immensely" that's the question. Apparently just because he "learned to train."🤣

I will not argue that one. I have no idea what they're doing nowadays or whether they feel pain or not.

But we do know Lance-Pantani-Ullrich felt pain - irrespective of what they had in their blood. I feel like there's enough documentation about the effects of 1990's and 2000's doping techniques on the body to have a fairly decent grounding on what those riders felt in the legs.

 

[Unchained]

Okay, but...drum roll...even if they were just chumps before (if we take your analysis to its natural conclusion), they were still chumps on EPO, GH, insulin, testosterone, reinfused blood, etc. and yet this new Gen Z is crushing them clean. 😏

This poor guy is trying to say how much he enjoys the racing, the performances, Pogacar's absolutely awesome accomplishments over the last few years,
in response, some silly doping dribble with a pro career that stated in 2017!! And never a problem, only podiums and prize money!!
60% Thunder showing that a love for bike racing, bike racers can still exist within an ugly, dirty, delusional, jaded pool were everything, everyone seen through a foggy lense of doping obsession.
I don't want a early dominant conclusion in just days.. But with all the anti- Pog posters..all steam ahead!!
Win, win and keep winning, knowing that everything Pogacar does positive pisses off a population of doping doubters ..love it.. Redefining ...the agony of defeat!!! Someone wrote that Pogacar going after 10 stages was greedy, but given the army of detractors, go for it..
Gordon Gekko!!! " Greed is good!!! "

 

[SorelyBoy]

Great talent but also better understanding of nutrition, training and new/improved equipment. It makes a great difference these days. Upwards and onwards in the development.

Sure, but you're speaking as if no other team or rider also understands and practices these better methods. That all the 'marginal gains' available aren't being squeezed out by everyone involved at the highest professional level of the sport. As such, as the science is better understood and implemented across the board, competition should be keener, the margins between the riders at the top 0.1% of the sport very small. Riders who are all incredibly talented, not some chubby weekend club riders from Team Pie. And to be fair, the competition is keen - broadly speaking. Except for Pogacar. He's the outlier. A huge one. Vingegaard can compete at the TDF, maybe, but not across the entire cycling calendar and across the different challenges each of the races offer. Or in terms of the frequency of the races, especially in the spring. In an era of increased specialisation especially, Pogacar looks even more 'odd' statistically speaking. His apparent immunity to human weakness is another oddity. No sickness either. No fatigue - none. His 'in race' posture of not being under any stress. He can flick a switch at any time and away he goes. Speaking of which, his lack of a red zone when attacking is also a major problem. The brutal accelerations too - they fail the eye test in terms of what looks within the abilities of a top level athlete - same as certain other riders who where either caught or who remain under the heaviest of suspicions. Each red light by themselves would be suspicious. Now add in his attachment to Gianetti. All alarm lights are now blinking red. The entire board is red. Houston, we've got a problem.

 

[Extinction]

This poor guy is trying to say how much he enjoys the racing, the performances, Pogacar's absolutely awesome accomplishments over the last few years,
in response, some silly doping dribble with a pro career that stated in 2017!! And never a problem, only podiums and prize money!!
60% Thunder showing that a love for bike racing, bike racers can still exist within an ugly, dirty, delusional, jaded pool were everything, everyone seen through a foggy lense of doping obsession.
I don't want a early dominant conclusion in just days.. But with all the anti- Pog posters..all steam ahead!!
Win, win and keep winning, knowing that everything Pogacar does positive pisses off a population of doping doubters ..love it.. Redefining ...the agony of defeat!!! Someone wrote that Pogacar going after 10 stages was greedy, but given the army of detractors, go for it..
Gordon Gekko!!! " Greed is good!!! "

I appreciate the enjoying the racing aspect and the analysis is doubtless part of the reason for today's performances. However, it's also an apology for today's performances. The cest pool of doping, whether one wishes to ignore it or think it has been resolved, isn't irrilevant to the unfathonable level obtained. Otherwise they have figured out how to square the circle, but who could believe that? As this is the doping thread, we cynics have an opportunity to get in there and question, debate, tear the philosophical guts out the issues involving doping and thus performances. Each chooses a target for different reasons. Some out of annoyance, some out of fear and loathing, others with a more detached sentiment because it just looks grotesque (even when the entertainment factor is still there, or perhaps because it looks grotesque and therefore irresistable). So let the Pog- lovers relish in the defeat of the Pog-doubters, as shall likely be the outcome, and then everybody can go back to the race analysis threads and discuss what happened, how and why purely for the enjoyment of cycling. We all do. Then it's back to the doping thread and the cycle begins anew. Welcome to cycling fanfair.

 

[SorelyBoy]

I will not argue that one. I have no idea what they're doing nowadays or whether they feel pain or not.

But we do know Lance-Pantani-Ullrich felt pain - irrespective of what they had in their blood. I feel like there's enough documentation about the effects of 1990's and 2000's doping techniques on the body to have a fairly decent grounding on what those riders felt in the legs.

It reflects a general truism as stated by Greg Lemond. "It never gets easier; you just go faster."

Unless you're Pogacar. Then the faster he goes the easier it seems to get for him. All year. All of the time. All weather. Any type of race.

 

[pelotonIQ]

It reflects a general truism as stated by Greg Lemond. "It never gets easier; you just go faster."

Unless you're Pogacar. Then the faster he goes the easier it seems to get for him. All year. All of the time. All weather. Any type of race.

If you see the same guy going in and out the vault with pallets of gold bars in broad daylight whilst passing every security check infront of guards and police all year, would you think that he is a thief?

 

[cnort]

If you see the same guy going in and out the vault with pallets of gold bars in broad daylight whilst passing every security check infront of guards and police all year, would you think that he is a thief?

I'd assume the guy owns the bank.