Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[Cookster15]

By this stage it’s so obvious. In the same way it now seems obvious that Van den Driessche was motor doping. We look at the footage and the reaction now is to laugh because of the way she carries out a seated acceleration to leave her rivals for dead. Well, that’s what Pogacar is doing some nine years on. It’s doesn’t account for everything of course. He’s on a top class programme as well. But it’s the thing that allows him to be almost unbeatable, to guarantee wins across a wide range of races on a consistent basis. To cross the line while hardly breathing and able to give an interview thirty seconds later while his world class opponents are on the floor dying from their efforts. And, implemented across a season, it allows him to mostly avoid the fatigue everyone else inevitably succumbs to .

'Getting away with it is shockingly easy': Five reasons why motor doping suspicions won't go away

Having spent over a year investigating motor doping, Chris Marshall-Bell examines the rumours and unanswered questions that remain

www.cyclingweekly.com

Obviously some people really really want to see Pogacar go down for motor doping. You would be better pursuing conventional blood manipulation IMO. But yours is a common post here. To me squashing such conspiracy theories is like playing whack-a-mole. Van den Driessche was a decade ago, if something was going on in the peloton surely there would be solid stories more recently?

No sign Pogacar used a motor on today's queen stage. He has also looked decidedly tired on several stages when I looked?

Chris Marshall-Bell (creator of Ghost in the Machine) is a freelance sports journalist and podcaster. He makes money from this. But I still find his video's unconvincing. People will believe what they want to believe. Chris profits from this. Good for him.

And on X-Ray scans its about deterrence, not testing every single bike at every race and making all the data public. Just like driving, we keep to speed limits because we worry the chance we might get caught. so we stick to speed limits. In the same way teams won't want to risk being caught for motor doping. Makes no sense on a business level.

 

[kingjr]

any team that was already going into the very grey area of carbon-monoxide clearly was willing to go beyond altitude camps.

pog was ap[arently very deflated after combloux.

my guess is the real arm race started there -- similar to when armstrong quit P-N in his 1998 return -- finding that the peloton had not changed from Festina. he disappeared for a few months and some decision happened that he returned even more chemically enhanced.

Wait, what? Festina happened after Paris-Nice 1998...

 

[AlpRaid]

Wait, what? Festina happened after Paris-Nice 1998...

u are correct, my bad. he found on his return that it was still peloton a two speeds. tx for the correction.

 

[Cookster15]

pog was ap[arently very deflated after combloux.

my guess is the real arm race started there

My guess is the real arms race stated at La Planche des Belles Filles in 2020. Visma thought they had it in the bag.

 

[DONCA]

By this stage it’s so obvious. In the same way it now seems obvious that Van den Driessche was motor doping. We look at the footage and the reaction now is to laugh because of the way she carries out a seated acceleration to leave her rivals for dead. Well, that’s what Pogacar is doing some nine years on. It’s doesn’t account for everything of course. He’s on a top class programme as well. But it’s the thing that allows him to be almost unbeatable, to guarantee wins across a wide range of races on a consistent basis. To cross the line while hardly breathing and able to give an interview thirty seconds later while his world class opponents are on the floor dying from their efforts. And, implemented across a season, it allows him to mostly avoid the fatigue everyone else inevitably succumbs to .

'Getting away with it is shockingly easy': Five reasons why motor doping suspicions won't go away

Having spent over a year investigating motor doping, Chris Marshall-Bell examines the rumours and unanswered questions that remain

www.cyclingweekly.com

100% agree.
And everyone is saying that it looks so easy but almost nobody is asking themselves why it looks so easy.It looks too easy to be true.

Why is no one asking themselves how it could be possible that a max. 63kg rider can win flat races against the big guns with much higher ftps? There is no logical explanation for it. The problem is that most people are too lazy to question things and the people involved in cycling have no interest in questioning things.

This year we saw so many unnormal seated attacks like we have never seen before. Opening up gaps in a second easily.

What I still don't understand is why he makes such weird movements all the time before and during his attacks (yes, I know he uses his thumbs to operate his DI2 shifters) but it's not just the movement for normal shifting. Like at 00:06 ( with his right hand he is pressing something). Just after this At 00:07 you can also see a completely unnatural acceleration like a short Turbo. Normal acceleration is more steady. Here the acceleration comes out of nowhere. With this acceleration he opened up the gap.

Or at 00:24 with his left hand he is also doing a strange movement. I never saw this with other riders.

And how come he suddenly stopped winning races? Coincidence after the voices got louder that it was getting boring and that his performances were not normal?

https://twitter.com/x/status/1948406756469531092

View: https://x.com/ImCalledPikachu/status/1948406756469531092

 

[YellowSocks]

What contradicts this is the crowds on the roadside seem huge this year, biggest I've seen since the later Armstrong/ Ullrich years.

Standing at the side of the road and watching a stage on television are two different things. One stands at the side of the road for the atmosphere of the Tour, not to follow the stage.

I get the impression that the Tour is getting a lot of media coverage in France this year (I don't know the TV ratings), but that may be in contrast to last year, when, between our violent political crisis and the Olympic Games, the Tour may have seemed like a somewhat minor event.

On the other hand, it's clear that Pogacar's dominance is raising more and more questions among the people I talk to. One of my colleagues said to me the other day, ‘I'm becoming more and more convinced that you were right’ (referring to a conversation about doping where, among a group of sports fans, I was the only one who believed that high-level sport was not possible without doping).

And it's true that, as the years go by, Pogacar is losing more and more of his youthful freshness. Well, if I were in his shoes, I imagine I'd already be completely jaded (and look ten years older).

 

[ashhutch1997]

Standing at the side of the road and watching a stage on television are two different things. One stands at the side of the road for the atmosphere of the Tour, not to follow the stage.

I get the impression that the Tour is getting a lot of media coverage in France this year (I don't know the TV ratings), but that may be in contrast to last year, when, between our violent political crisis and the Olympic Games, the Tour may have seemed like a somewhat minor event.

On the other hand, it's clear that Pogacar's dominance is raising more and more questions among the people I talk to. One of my colleagues said to me the other day, ‘I'm becoming more and more convinced that you were right’ (referring to a conversation about doping where, among a group of sports fans, I was the only one who believed that high-level sport was not possible without doping).

And it's true that, as the years go by, Pogacar is losing more and more of his youthful freshness. Well, if I were in his shoes, I imagine I'd already be completely jaded (and look ten years older).

Yes and no, I remember in the team Sky years the crowds were much smaller.
And Pogacar never, ever gets questioned at all about doping, compared to Armstrong/ Froome ect.

 

[Red Rick]

I dunno I'm not big on screaming motor every time someone sits on their saddle doing over 6 W/kg.

 

[YellowSocks]

Yes and no, I remember in the team Sky years the crowds were much smaller.
And Pogacar never, ever gets questioned at all about doping, compared to Armstrong/ Froome ect.

Pogacar gets questioned in everyday conversations. During this lunch break, another colleague of mine took out his phone, showed the innocent member of the group Pogacar's attack in the final metres of Ventoux and said, ‘I don't understand why people still watch this crap.’ He used to watch cycling.

As for the people on the side of the road, I think 1. the French need a break, because otherwise we're mostly talked about nuclear at the moment (and not nuclear riders), and 2. tourism in France has grown significantly since the Froome years.

 

[ashhutch1997]

Pogačar doesn't help himself sometimes, dropped the best riders in the world in the saddle looking fresh as a daisy isn't a great look.

 

[ashhutch1997]

Pogacar gets questioned in everyday conversations. During this lunch break, another colleague of mine took out his phone, showed the innocent member of the group Pogacar's attack in the final metres of Ventoux and said, ‘I don't understand why people still watch this crap.’ He used to watch cycling.

I've been saying since last year that Pogacar will kill the sport. But I've never seen such a protected rider, the media just glaze him 24/7 and won't say a single bad thing about him.
They won't even ask any questions, despite it being so obvious he's doping and breaking every record possible.

 

[YellowSocks]

I've been saying since last year that Pogacar will kill the sport. But I've never seen such a protected rider, the media just glaze him 24/7 and won't say a single bad thing about him.
They won't even ask any questions, despite it being so obvious he's doping and breaking every record possible.

Society as a whole has changed. Now people even sue hospitals.

Edit: The thing is, I don't think the accusers would be prosecuted. What cycling team would want the police poking their noses into their business?

 

[DONCA]

pog is clean guys.
he is just eating more carbs per hour than the rest and look his bike has no paint anymore. that makes the 50w difference.

and maybe also those little punctures:

Bildschirmfoto 2025 07 24 um 22.56.30

Image Bildschirmfoto 2025 07 24 um 22.56.30 hosted in Freeimage.host

freeimage.host

 

[jono]

I've been saying since last year that Pogacar will kill the sport. But I've never seen such a protected rider, the media just glaze him 24/7 and won't say a single bad thing about him.
They won't even ask any questions, despite it being so obvious he's doping and breaking every record possible.

How should a journalist phrase a question to Tadej about doping, if they believe it is "obvious" he is doping, but in the absence of any evidence of such?

 

[Cookster15]

This year we saw so many unnormal seated attacks like we have never seen before. Opening up gaps in a second easily.

Never before? Pogacar's seated attack which basically won the 2021 Tour on stage 8 and was well discussed in this forum. He was only 22 then. He is 26 now. Not evidence of motor doping IMO.

And I don't get how Pogacar can be a protected rider if he's killing the sport. This doesn't make much logical sense from a commercial perspective?

 

[daking123]

Never before? Pogacar's seated attack which basically won the 2021 Tour on stage 8 and was well discussed in this forum. He was only 22 then. He is 26 now. Not evidence of motor doping IMO.

And I don't get how Pogacar can be a protected rider if he's killing the sport. This doesn't make much logical sense from a commercial perspective?

Maybe, but he was still attacking out of the saddle a lot more. That said it doesn’t really matter anymore his seated attacks are now generating way more watts. This sudden and dramatic increase in power output just happens to align with Vingegaard winning the Tour two years in a row.
It’s obvious to anyone paying attention that Pogacar has a huge ego, and after getting completely destroyed by a better climber he must have realized that winning the Tour again without some sort of extra help wasn’t likely. So he went with the motor option.
That came with major advantages, beating riders with higher FTPs, staying at peak form all year it all suddenly became possible. Honestly I don’t understand how people don’t see it. This kind of performance is flat-out impossible, even with doping.

 

[SorelyBoy]

Never before? Pogacar's seated attack which basically won the 2021 Tour on stage 8 and was well discussed in this forum. He was only 22 then. He is 26 now. Not evidence of motor doping IMO.

And I don't get how Pogacar can be a protected rider if he's killing the sport. This doesn't make much logical sense from a commercial perspective?

You are correct. His performance in 2021 was ludicrous. Yet since then, since 2023 really, he has improved another 10% (which is impossible using legitimate means) while he also almost moved to total domination by monopolising the classic races. As for him being protected, I think it’s a case whereby they’ve allowed Gianetti to create this brand leader, this GOAT cycling ambassador figure, but he’s turned into a monster who is not so much showcasing the sport as he is now eating it. However they know that taking him down would be a scandal that would set the sport back ten years. He’s Armstrong all over again, but at least Lance just dominated the Tour, not the entire racing calendar. The guy is a headache and other teams are spitting feathers. Rock, hard place etc.

 

[peterfin]

Never before? Pogacar's seated attack which basically won the 2021 Tour on stage 8 and was well discussed in this forum. He was only 22 then. He is 26 now. Not evidence of motor doping IMO.

And I don't get how Pogacar can be a protected rider if he's killing the sport. This doesn't make much logical sense from a commercial perspective?

Probably because 'exposing' him will kill the sport immediately? I don't think they have any (conclusive) evidence but we are seeing desperate moves such as the whole battle against mechanical doping the UCI is doing. It gives the impression that they are not in control of the situation. The current era with the big 6 was great for them but since Pogi's dominance in 2024 that changed. A report came out that viewers in countries such as Spain and France are dropping so there might be a relation with the dominance of Pogacar. Ultimately for the UCI the focus will be on the viewers, the revenue, the other stuff (doping) only needs to be managed so it doesn’t impact the credibility and as such the return too much. Currently they are in a difficult spot but talking openly about it is impossible as it impacts the credibility of the sport. So yes, I believe Pogacar can be both protected and at the same time killing the sport.

 

[ivanic]

Don't forget the WC too, oh no, what do we do? wether one believes he dopes or not, just enjoy the entertainment.

entertainment? really? REALLY????

I actually reckon he'll win all three GT's in a year, and people will still tell you it's because of nutrition.

he could have done it already in 2024.


in this edition, not a single journalist asked him a question about doping.

did the organization not allow questions like this? Is this where we're at?

 

[Ilmaestro99]

Mate it was entertaining from 2020 - 23, but from 2024 it just got ridiculous and predictable.
I was a fan boy of his but last year was just too much.

I never like him since tour 2020 and PFDF. That was an absurd performance that has somehow been forgotten because things have just gotten more ridiculous since then. I don't ever think I've found him entertaining. Tour 2021 was rubbish. Tours 2022-23 were only good because Visma found their own ridiculous mutant making pantani look slow. He made a mockery of the whole peloton at flanders 2023 (and most of spring 2023) and lombardia has not been a watchable race for several years now.

I hate the way Mauro gianetti is pissing all over our sport with this guy. His redeeming factor is that he's saved us from multiple consecutive Visma tour wins.

 

[Raest]

In the Ineos thread there is a very good article from defector on the Aderlass-Ineos link and one thing that caught my eye is how easily teams and cyclists either threaten with litigation or outright sue journalists for doping allegations. Gone is the era of the printed media where the magazine or newspaper would stand behind their journalist, many of them are now freelancers that write for electronic cycling media, the income of which depends on advertising revenue from companies that sponsor cycling teams. Alleging that said teams allow their athletes to dope is financial suicide. Moreover, even if the journalist would win the court case, they often cannot afford the litigation. So they keep their mouths shut.
Regarding the Ghost in the Machine podcast which I managed to listen in its entirety yesterday. It's full of hearsay, rumours and conjecture but no evidence.
The journalist does appear to know a lot more that he lets on but he never names anyone other than van den Driessche and Cancelara (allegedly). It's up to the listener to believe his story or not and although it does appear plausible, this doesn't make it true. This is how people end up in QAnon facebook groups. Having listened to it I think that if motors are indeed being used, it's more likely that everyone is using them rather than UAE alone (that would perhaps explain the insane increase in average speeds much better than rolling resistance and aero bikes). But he does make some good points about UCI and their refusal to let a 3rd party do the inspections and the fact that it's in their best interests (and its president in particular) to not find any motors in any bikes...
The whole thing is a fing rabbit hole and it's much worse than the Armstrong years as at least then people were, willing, to point out things that were not normal.

 

[Fuente De]

The thing I can't make sense of is that we're seeing enormous increases in power output in the last five years, but we're not seeing corresponing paradigm shifts in other endurance sports. Looking at the world records and fastest times in the 5000m, 10,000m and marathon, as well as the longer events in rowing, track cycling and speed skating, none of them have been lowered by unpresedented amounts in the last few years. The speeds in XC skiing don't seem to be on a different planet to five years previously.

Surely the athletes at the cutting edge in these sports have access to the same technological advances as cyclists, in terms of training, nutrition, sports science and PEDs, both in the legal/grey area and the illegal stuff? When EPO hit the scene it affected all endurance sports. There was a before and after across the board because the game had obviously changed. We're seemingly at another one of those watershed points in cycling now. Times are faster than they were at the uninhibited height of EPO use where a 60% hematocrit was the norm. The physical laws of the sport don't seem to apply any more, where featherweight riders can crank out ungodly watts and beating the tanks on the flats and classics and sprint specialists like WvA and Pollitt are doing monster pulls in the mountains. For someone who's followed cycling for the better part of three decades it doesn't make any sense. But similar mind-melting exploits aren't seen elsewhere. Why?

It's not because Pogacar is "the best ever" or because his team has more marginal gains than the next one. He's an outlier and UAE are stinking rich, but the entire peloton has shifted up several gears compared to just a few years ago. The entire sport has been affected by this. Is it because cycling has more money in it than any other sport, so other sports can't afford the new drug on the block yet? Possibly, and I guess time will tell whether we will eventually see other sports use the same groundbreaking methods successfully.

Unless, of course, the crucial advantage that's responsible for the enormous performance increases in cycling is literally only possible in that particular sport... Yes, I'm talking motors. I used to be so firmly on the other side of the fence on this and I didn't think the sport could sink that low, but I'm getting doubtful. There's too much going on these last few years that doesn't pass the eye test unless you add a motor into the equation. Then you have the fact that UAE literally own a bike company now and that Pogacar is making some weird bike choices recently, which is admittedly thin evidence at best, but has to be considered as part of the bigger picture. If we also zoom out and stop looking at cycling in a vacuum, the increase in performance in cycling compared to other sports is hard to explain by any other means too. The longer it takes before a superhuman freak comes along and smashes records in other endurance sports, the more I think we're dealing with something beyond just your average oxygen vector/pharmacological cheating.

Great postt, but I'd argue that triathlon sees some massive gains in recent years too, however, the explanation there are sorta more believable.

 

[BubbaChuck]

So basically Pog has 6.Jonas is nothing but Co2 rebreather merchant and if you put them on water and bread he runs circles around him like he is his father.Watts will explain alles,even doping,lol.

 

[Rackham]

Probably because 'exposing' him will kill the sport immediately? I don't think they have any (conclusive) evidence but we are seeing desperate moves such as the whole battle against mechanical doping the UCI is doing. It gives the impression that they are not in control of the situation. The current era with the big 6 was great for them but since Pogi's dominance in 2024 that changed. A report came out that viewers in countries such as Spain and France are dropping so there might be a relation with the dominance of Pogacar. Ultimately for the UCI the focus will be on the viewers, the revenue, the other stuff (doping) only needs to be managed so it doesn’t impact the credibility and as such the return too much. Currently they are in a difficult spot but talking openly about it is impossible as it impacts the credibility of the sport. So yes, I believe Pogacar can be both protected and at the same time killing the sport.

It'll be about greasing palms, IMO, similar to how Hein Verbruggen was in bed financially with Postal back in the day:

https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/verbruggen-nothing-illegal-has-happened/

A favor for a favor etc. And I believe there's serious vested interests in doing nothing about the free-for-all doping that's going on. When I see the UCI wetting itself over Bruyneel showing up in the Tour for one afternoon whilst known past dopers run the show all over the sport in almost every team and in TV commentary, all we can do is shrug and say we smell the B.S.

But looking to the future, let's see if Paul Seixas lives up to the hype because he's just what France "needs" (if we cynically accept this is how the sport is conducted, basically, i.e. with performance enhancers). FYI people watching on TV or on the roadside won't care about trivialities like doping when a Frenchman is going toe-to-toe with Pog in the Tour. The problem with the Tour right now is the cast is stale and the Pog versus Vinge 'rivalry' is an empty well in terms of excitement and emotional engagement.

 

[Abedfo]

It'll be about greasing palms, IMO, similar to how Hein Verbruggen was in bed financially with Postal back in the day:

https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/verbruggen-nothing-illegal-has-happened/

A favor for a favor etc. And I believe there's serious vested interests in doing nothing about the free-for-all doping that's going on. When I see the UCI wetting itself over Bruyneel showing up in the Tour for one afternoon whilst known past dopers run the show all over the sport in almost every team and in TV commentary, all we can do is shrug and say we smell the B.S.

But looking to the future, let's see if Paul Seixas lives up to the hype because he's just what France "needs" (if we cynically accept this is how the sport is conducted, basically, i.e. with performance enhancers). FYI people watching on TV or on the roadside won't care about trivialities like doping when a Frenchman is going toe-to-toe with Pog in the Tour. The problem with the Tour right now is the cast is stale and the Pog versus Vinge 'rivalry' is an empty well in terms of excitement and emotional engagement.

The UCI are just like FIFA. A self appointed governing body with total power who are under no scrutiny.