Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[AmRacer]

This argument fails on all accounts. Even if we ignore the random limitation to the latest WC/EC races, the implication that winning the two road races is worse than remcos results also seems absurd. Do you think pogi would like to trade for remcos WC/EC results? I don't

Remco got second in both RR. It would have been different had he only get top 10. I do think ITT < RR, but winning ITT > 4th and DNS.

 

[Stablo]

This argument fails on all accounts. Even if we ignore the random limitation to the latest WC/EC races, the implication that winning the two road races is worse than remcos results also seems absurd. Do you think pogi would like to trade for remcos WC/EC results? I don't

This exactly. And these two races are a very minor thing in the bigger picture, about the most juiced up rider in cyclings history. Or maybe not the most juiced one, but the advantage is bigger than we have ever seen. EPO-era there was still many big winners, now it's basically dopačar in the races he decides to enter. Only MDVP and Remco to collect the scraps from the table a few times out of tens.

 

[Ripper]

The point is Ricco was laughable. Nobody was surprised when he was busted for CERA. And pretty sure Saunier Duval wasn’t the only team with dodgy management who are still involved in other teams today?

He was, wasn't he? He and de Luca somewhat made me laugh!

Regarding dodgy (or corrupt) management, absolutely UAE is not the only team, but I think they are also by far winning in that category.

 

[ashhutch1997]

He was, wasn't he? He and de Luca somewhat made me laugh!

Regarding dodgy (or corrupt) management, absolutely UAE is not the only team, but I think they are also by far winning in that category.

Emmanuelle Sella was a classic.

 

[ashhutch1997]

You are overlooking the obvious. Take out Pogacar and remco wins these two races solo and in convincing fashion.

Yeah but the difference is that Pogacar turns up to 99.9% of races full gas and shows no sign of actually building form, which just isn't normal, from February to October, destroying the worlds best riders. Remco couldn't even win the Tour of Britain against Roman Grigorie and a washed Julian Alaphilippe, which showed he was building form for these last two races.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

For the sake of cycling, I am actually starting to hope that Redbull really gives you wings and the other teams would also up their antes. Any means neccessary if this is what UCI wants.

Red Bull seems to be giving some riders wings, like we've seen with Pellizzari in the Giro and Vuelta, Lipowitz in the Tour and Pidcock in the Vuelta. It could also be the real reason why Lazkano has disappeared from the face of the Earth.

 

[Gianetti_Is_The_Goat]

But what about all the others, not just top 3, are Vinge and Evenepoel doing proportionally more than them?
Or can some differences also come from other factors (such as one being a better cyclist)?


People wanna talk young talent? Mohoric was the first to win U18 and U23 WC RR one after another (before signing for a pro team) but the results did not translate like that to the pros... even Gianneti in UAE could not do "anything" with him.
Even in the victorious years of Bahrain, he was not really able to compete with great talents from the Benelux that were cited here.
So I guess talent in the youth (specially when some grow/mature faster than others) is not everything, or if it is, we can take this Mohoric example about proportions (of something going on) between the guys in peloton.

[content deleted]

Mohoric won MSR, 4 smaller stage races and stages in every GT. What are you talking about?

 

[how yes no?]

Mohoric won MSR, 4 smaller stage races and stages in every GT. What are you talking about?

Which is far from for example Alaphilippe or Yates brothers whom he won over in WC U23.
I'm talking about never being able to follow the MvdPs and vanAerts of the world in E3 or Flanders when hammer was really put down, specially on climbs, even if he dropped Alaphilippe on quite short uphill in the WC U23 race (where Meintjes finished second).

But anybody who achieved less than Mohorič in the youth (basically everyone), but more in the latter years should cleary be flagged as a doper for lacking "natural progression".

On topic of "natural progression", I'll also add than Evenepoel is the perfect example of a rider potentially being on a proper doping program from the moment they took up cycling as a sport.

 

[Gianetti_Is_The_Goat]

Which is far from for example Alaphilippe or Yates brothers whom he won over in WC U23.
I'm talking about never being able to follow the MvdPs and vanAerts of the world in E3 or Flanders when hammer was really put down, specially on climbs, even if he dropped Alaphilippe on quite short uphill in the WC U23 race (where Meintjes finished second).

But anybody who achieved less than Mohorič in the youth (basically everyone), but more in the latter years should cleary be a flagged as dopper for lacking "natural progression".

Mohoric beat MvdP in MSR and his TdF stage victory in 2021. He beat both Alaphilippe and MvdP in LBL 2020. You may think that 25 pro victories isn't much for a 30-year old non-sprinter, but I'm sure many riders would disagree.

Your second claim makes even less sense. I never wrote anything like it. I only refute people's claims that Pogacar was a 'generational' talent since his junior years. He clearly wasn't.
Is it possible somebody improves in later years? Sure.
Is it highly suspicious when two riders (Pogacar and Del Toro) do this when they join the same team led by the two dirtiest people in cycling? I'll leave it up to you to decide.

 

[Fantastico]

The point is Ricco was laughable. Nobody was surprised when he was busted for CERA. And pretty sure Saunier Duval wasn’t the only team with dodgy management who are still involved in other teams today?

It was not only Ricco who was laughable.

It was Piepoli at age 34 suddenly becoming one of the best climbers in the world, winning 2 Giro stages in 2006, 1 Giro stage in 2007 (he finished 2nd 3 times, 2 of them in double-wins with teammates Ricco and Simoni) and 1 Tour stage in 2008 (double-win with Cobo).

It was Cobo winning the Vuelta in 2011.

It was Cobo, Gil and Gomez Marchante dominating Pais Vasco in 2007.

It was Perdiguero all of a sudden becoming a world class rider in 2004, dominating Catalunya (winning 3 stages and GC; he had always been "good" with chances to win sprints on medium-mountain stages, now all of a sudden he was winning a MTT in Andorra) and winning San Sebastian.

And then it was Pogacar.

Whenever Gianetti was involved in a team they had some laughable outlier performances.

 

[ashhutch1997]

I only refute people's claims that Pogacar was a 'generational' talent since his junior years. He clearly wasn't.

Didn't Pogacar get smoked by Marc Hurshi in the U23 world championships? He didn't come close to winning the Junoir world championships, where's Remco Evenepoel did one of the greatest ever performances to win the Junior world championships in 2018.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

It was not only Ricco who was laughable.

It was Piepoli at age 34 suddenly becoming one of the best climbers in the world, winning 2 Giro stages in 2006, 1 Giro stage in 2007 (he finished 2nd 3 times, 2 of them in double-wins with teammates Ricco and Simoni) and 1 Tour stage in 2008 (double-win with Cobo).

It was Cobo winning the Vuelta in 2011.

It was Cobo, Gil and Gomez Marchante dominating Pais Vasco in 2007.

It was Perdiguero all of a sudden becoming a world class rider in 2004, dominating Catalunya (winning 3 stages and GC; he had always been "good" with chances to win sprints on medium-mountain stages, now all of a sudden he was winning a MTT in Andorra) and winning San Sebastian.

And then it was Pogacar.

Whenever Gianetti was involved in a team they had some laughable outlier performances.

It seems Mauro brings the best out of his riders. True GOAT among directors. Unfortunately some of them don't appreciate it and do bad things behind his back (like black sheep Ricco). Most importantly Mauro believes that Pogi is good and honest. GOAT director + GOAT rider, great times to be alive!

 

[Samu Cuenca]

It seems Mauro brings the best out of his riders. True GOAT among directors. Unfortunately some of them don't appreciate it and do bad things behind his back (like black sheep Ricco). Most importantly Mauro believes that Pogi is good and honest. GOAT director + GOAT rider, great times to be alive!

One could also argue he has had a problem of not getting things out of his riders in time for testing. However, nowadays the riders have such big appetites that they probably just eat the test kits and that's why no one gets popped anymore.

 

[AlpRaid]

Didn't Pogacar get smoked by Marc Hurshi in the U23 world championships? He didn't come close to winning the Junoir world championships, where's Remco Evenepoel did one of the greatest ever performances to win the Junior world championships in 2018.

and of course Hirshi was "let go" by DSM after his breakout season when he did not follow their "whereabouts criteria". Alarm bells!

he then went to uae (shocker!), where he never went to a GT but won a ton of small races (picking up wins and UCI pts for the team) -- seemed like he only did well at small races.

and now he left uae and literally nada, nothing at all.

hmm....

 

[Extinction]

It seems Mauro brings the best out of his riders. True GOAT among directors. Unfortunately some of them don't appreciate it and do bad things behind his back (like black sheep Ricco). Most importantly Mauro believes that Pogi is good and honest. GOAT director + GOAT rider, great times to be alive!

You do realize "black sheep Ricco" was jailed in France, to then go on to almost kill himself by blood poisoning? After Gianetti the vampires are out.☠️

 

[Cookster15]

Whenever Gianetti was involved in a team they had some laughable outlier performances.

I was only referring to the 2008 Tour de France. I was right that nobody took Ricco seriously then. Cadel Evans certainly didn't. And Ricco was the best rider on that Saunier Duval team. Piepoli was not.

Piepoli at age 34 suddenly becoming one of the best climbers in the world - I raise you Jean-Christophe Peraud who came 2nd at the 2014 Tour aged 37 riding for AG2R.

Then going back there was Chris Horner - came to pro cycling at 35 to ride for Lotto. Nice guy but he couldn't hold Evans wheel in the mountains then left Lotto and rode with Bruyneel and adopted the nickname 2nd best climber in the world?

He made his name way before as a super-doped rider requiring emergency hospitalization (google it).

gianetti + cycling = doping.

all he has ever known is doping, and to extremes others didn't dare -- as a rider and then as a manager.

what made him suddenly stop?

there's nothing.

no way around that.

it's like in Armstrong's time. everyone in cycling knew that you only go to Ferrari for doping. all cyclists (and their wives!) knew what armstrong was doing (and why he desperately tried to hide it and then made up the excuse that he was only consulting him for a tilt at the world hour record - which of course was never the plan, and he never did).

if uae chose gianetti as DS, it was because he specifically had that track record -- why else would you hire a man with such a resume? if every success he had is due to doping, what insight could he possibly bring as DS to a supposedly "clean" team. zero. nothing.

it's why I simply laugh at anyone who listens to Bruyneel. what does he know about race tactics? all he knows is riding when you know you are more doped than all the other riders. how the hell does that help you with knowing tactics?

Some good points (I never even thought about Bruyneel btw). But why did you cherry pick my last paragraph and ignore all the specific preceding points I made on 2024 PdB and Pog's age progression?

Maybe Gianetti has worked out how to identify super responders at a young age? Maybe Marc Hirshi wasn't responding so they let him go? But I still don't see why UAE wanted to throw millions of Euros manipulating the 2nd string sport of cycling. They could spend the same money without risking reputational damage to get the same outcomes in global brand awareness.

Bottom line is this is the sport of cycling. You are not going to find any top pro who is squeaky clean. None. So sadly most of what gets discussed in the Clinic boils down to my doper is being beaten and I'm not happy.

 

[aphronesis]

Bottom line is this is the sport of cycling. You are not going to find any top pro who is squeaky clean. None. So sadly most of what gets discussed in the Clinic boils down to my doper is being beaten and I'm not happy.

Very nice

 

[red_flanders]

Bottom line is this is the sport of cycling. You are not going to find any top pro who is squeaky clean. None. So sadly most of what gets discussed in the Clinic boils down to my doper is being beaten and I'm not happy.

Nailed it.

 

[YellowSocks]

But I still don't see why UAE wanted to throw millions of Euros manipulating the 2nd string sport of cycling.

They finance a team (which became the best in the world). They organize a WT stage race. They bought Colnago. MyWhoosh, headquartered in Abu Dhabi (Gianetti is a member of the board), organizes the UCI Esports World Championships (held in Abu Dhabi). They spend a lot of money in cycling (from their point of vue it might not really be a lot). Yet they still have no riders and no fans (you just need to have a look at the UAE Tour to see that there are more camels than people along the course).

Don't ask me why they're interested. Maybe some lunatic convinced them that cycling was an big thing, or they're run by a real cycling fan, or it's part of a larger “sportwashing” mission, or they just don't know what to do with their money. The fact is that for the past ten years, they've been really interested in it.

So sadly most of what gets discussed in the Clinic boils down to my doper is being beaten and I'm not happy.

I find this way of reducing the Clinic to a battle between fanboys (the same that one can read till indigestion throughout the rest of the forum) quite insulting. In any case, I don't recognize myself in this kind of thing at all. And most of the time, I read less blind fanboyism in this part of the forum than elsewhere.

 

[Cookster15]

Don't ask me why they're interested. Maybe some lunatic convinced them that cycling was an big thing, or they're run by a real cycling fan, or it's part of a larger “sportwashing” mission, or they just don't know what to do with their money. The fact is that for the past ten years, they've been really interested in it.

I think @Red Rick had a theory? Something like cycling was better value for money relative to other options UAE had.

For example, Emirates sponsor Real Madrid, AC Milan, Arsenal FC, Olympique Lyonnais, FC Bayern Munich. I think that would dwarf UAE's investment in cycling (between €60 million and €65 million for 2025).

But the risk is another Walsh comes along, does some simple investigative journalism and lifts the lid. UAE can adsorb that blow back. Not sure about the UCI though. But even those who run the UCI are not bigger than the sport itself - they can all be replaced if there was a scandal uncovered. Like the President of FIFA was.

 

[Ripper]

But I still don't see why UAE wanted to throw millions of Euros manipulating the 2nd string sport of cycling. They could spend the same money without risking reputational damage to get the same outcomes in global brand awareness.

An honest question here, but where does one view all the many things that UAE owns or sponsors? Off the top of my head, besides some vertical-ish integration in cycling, I think they have other sports they they directly or indirectly support?

 

[Cookster15]

An honest question here, but where does one view all the many things that UAE owns or sponsors? Off the top of my head, besides some vertical-ish integration in cycling, I think they have other sports they they directly or indirectly support?

I mentioned some. e.g. Emirates airlines are UAE. You can also Google what UAE invest in cycling, I added that up-thread. But that spend is dwarfed by what they spend on European soccer for example.

 

[Ripper]

I mentioned some. e.g. Emirates airlines are UAE. You can also Google what UAE invest in cycling, I added that up-thread. But that spend is dwarfed by what they spend on European soccer for example.

So cycling, regardless of the millions we see being spent, is chump change for them. And I think you pointed out they could just walk away without it mattering to much to them.

Who knows how all this appeals to the owners? Owning 'the best team' when money is no issue? Washing their money or sportwashing for improved optics? Improved tourism? Just like paying the game? I mean, power is a weird thing and I can't say I really understand the thinking of the superrich

 

[aphronesis]

I think @Red Rick had a theory? Something like cycling was better value for money relative to other options UAE had.

For example, Emirates sponsor Real Madrid, AC Milan, Arsenal FC, Olympique Lyonnais, FC Bayern Munich. I think that would dwarf UAE's investment in cycling (between €60 million and €65 million for 2025).

But the risk is another Walsh comes along, does some simple investigative journalism and lifts the lid. UAE can adsorb that blow back. Not sure about the UCI though. But even those who run the UCI are not bigger than the sport itself - they can all be replaced if there was a scandal uncovered. Like the President of FIFA was.

I think it’s arguable that journalism isn’t oriented that way anymore: social economies politics, cultural mores, success markers have all been transformed and sport doping maybe isn’t where people with that skepticism want to pitch a fight.

It’s hard to think of people covering the sport who could or would want to take that on.

 

[Red Rick]

I think @Red Rick had a theory? Something like cycling was better value for money relative to other options UAE had.

For example, Emirates sponsor Real Madrid, AC Milan, Arsenal FC, Olympique Lyonnais, FC Bayern Munich. I think that would dwarf UAE's investment in cycling (between €60 million and €65 million for 2025).

But the risk is another Walsh comes along, does some simple investigative journalism and lifts the lid. UAE can adsorb that blow back. Not sure about the UCI though. But even those who run the UCI are not bigger than the sport itself - they can all be replaced if there was a scandal uncovered. Like the President of FIFA was.

I think sportswashing is quite often very diversified, and there's not really an intent way in advance to go "yeah let's just crush cycling now". Cycling just happens to be cheaper than some other big ticket sports and still have one of the greatest sports events.

Then Pogacar is probably mostly Gianetti's creation, and UAE influence probably slowly starts ramping up after that 2020 Tour.