Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[Stablo]

So let me put my feelings in here straight. I don't care what kind of "super" talent teddy is supposed to be. What i care about is, that the sport I really have loved for almost 30 years now has become a complete joke. "Landis" is the new norm and nobody even cares. February to Oktober super form, winning when you just feel like it. Sure it's real. But the thing I am the most annoyed is, that almost every platform where you want to discuss cycling is unbearable and dishonest, even this one.

I still remember lively those days when Landis, Ricco etc. were doing their things amd was sure they were going to be busted 🤭😂

Then teddy-boy arrives with the infamous Gianetti at PDBF and I am sure again that soon it will be busted. But wait nothing happens, Gianetti had learned his lessons and now had a backing of a nation with a lots of money, that also bought the bike sponsor. It is just so ridicilous and stupid, that it hurts my brain.

Summa summarum i canceled my cycling streaming subscribtion and I told them why. What a joke this has become, an absolute farce.

Edit.
P.S. the things pog has been doing for the past two seasons are not humanly possible in an endurance sport like cycling. Period.

 

[AlpRaid]

When we stop being either impressed or angry and take the time to analyse Pogacar’s performances across a long period of time, we see certain obvious patterns.

Do those patterns include the gigantic jump from 24 onwards. I just listened to another podcast that talks about how different Pog is the last two years. So this is not a Forum meme, it is observed by others, and is supported by data.

Wondering if Remco's time up Ganda this year would be close to Pog in 2023 (or even better)...?

He’s light years ahead in pretty much every race type, except for MVdP in a couple of classics.

And Remco in flat and even rolling ITTs.

The pattern, as far as I can tell, is a level and consistency of performance that is extraordinary and yet can still malfunction randomly and inexplicably.

I would suggest it is simply a watts/kg advantage that is almost ludicrous.

Pog was always good, even great, and he certainly surprised some (not me) with his first TDF win. However, it is so weird now to re-watch 2021 Euros when he gets dropped on a climb by a younger Remco (and Remco was nowhere near his best at that time, still returning from Lombardia crash, and seeking consistency).

So what has happened that this is no longer even a remote possibility? He is crushing riders with arguably better pedigree who could beat him (at least at times) pre-2024, even on his favorite terrain. Now, not only is that simply not fathomable, but he is gapping them by minutes and minutes. What the F happened between 2023 and 2024? I have never seen anything like it that is not eventually explained by doping.

 

[kingjr]

So let me put my feelings in here straight. I don't care what kind of "super" talent teddy is supposed to be. What i care about is, that the sport I really have loved for almost 30 years now has become a complete joke. "Landis" is the new norm and nobody even cares. February to Oktober super form, winning when you just feel like it. Sure it's real. But the thing I am the most annoyed is, that almost every platform where you want to discuss cycling is unbearable and dishonest, even this one.

I still remember lively those days when Landis, Ricco etc. were doing their things amd was sure they were going to be busted 🤭😂

Then teddy-boy arrives with the infamous Gianetti at PDBF and I am sure again that soon it will be busted. But wait nothing happens, Gianetti had learned his lessons and now had a backing of a nation with a lots of money, that also bought the bike sponsor. It is just so ridicilous and stupid, that it hurts my brain.

Summa summarum i canceled my cycling streaming subscribtion and I told them why. What a joke this has become, an absolute farce.

Edit.
P.S. the things pog has been doing for the past two seasons are not humanly possible in an endurance sport like cycling. Period.

That's them telt then. They'll take immediate action and next year it'll all be different. Witness!

 

[Stablo]

That's them telt then. They'll take immediate action and next year it'll all be different. Witness!

Lol thank you for your attention to this matter and for completely missing the point. I am so glad you are happy with the current "situation" 😍like I said, even the state of the forum has gone bad. (I still really hope I don't get banned again for saying how I feel😅)

 

[SorelyBoy]

Do those patterns include the gigantic jump from 24 onwards. I just listened to another podcast that talks about how different Pog is the last two years. So this is not a Forum meme, it is observed by others, and is supported by data.

Wondering if Remco's time up Ganda this year would be close to Pog in 2023 (or even better)...?


And Remco in flat and even rolling ITTs.



I would suggest it is simply a watts/kg advantage that is almost ludicrous.

Pog was always good, even great, and he certainly surprised some (not me) with his first TDF win. However, it is so weird now to re-watch 2021 Euros when he gets dropped on a climb by a younger Remco (and Remco was nowhere near his best at that time, still returning from Lombardia crash, and seeking consistency).

So what has happened that this is no longer even a remote possibility? He is crushing riders with arguably better pedigree who could beat him (at least at times) pre-2024, even on his favorite terrain. Now, not only is that simply not fathomable, but he is gapping them by minutes and minutes. What the F happened between 2023 and 2024? I have never seen anything like it that is not eventually explained by doping.

No. He’s doped to the gills obviously. That explains the first version of Pogacar. The 2019-2023 version. But then UAE needed something else. Something else to beat Vingegaard and something else to win the classics. All of them. In one season. The pattern is not the wins, his unbelievable performances over multiple races. Those merely tell us he’s at it. It’s the races or stages he loses form in drastically and unexpectedly that tells us what’s really going on, the ultimate reason behind the mind bending, reality defying form. Because those blips aren’t on a curve, which even dopers go through. They’re sudden and come out of nowhere, then he’s back to ‘normal’. The apparent randomness of his loss of form *is* the pattern that reveals that it’s no loss of form at all, but rather it’s the bike. Additional evidence is available in terms of, for example, the weird hand movements, the ludicrous seated attacks that see him accelerate away over very short distances from other riders without any apparent additional effort. Plenty of examples this season, especially on the Mur. Look for it. It’s obvious.

 

[Cookster15]

Funny that in 20 seconds of riding, Pog was already 5 up the road from Remco&Comp (and was not gasping for any air). And of course continued to pull away (I think the rate was not quite the same though).

Funny how un-aerodynamic the dude is. The wattage must be just fantastically funny stuff.

Exaggeration isn't helpful IMO. Nobody even attempted to follow when he attacked - I was a bit disappointed in Remco not even trying.

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@Bombarolo posted this in the Pogacar thread. It is during Pogacar's attack on Passo di Ganda today - that's a pretty big grimace? Not sure we can say he wasn't breathing hard.

As for aerodynamics, he doesn't look that bad. Remco is still obviously the better TTer. A bullet helped by being two inches shorter but I'd be surprised if UAE with their resources didn't do work with Pogacar in a wind tunnel.

 

[topcat]

Lol thank you for your attention to this matter and for completely missing the point. I am so glad you are happy with the current "situation" 😍like I said, even the state of the forum has gone bad. (I still really hope I don't get banned again for saying how I feel😅)

The forum is in an awful state but the State of the forum thread is still a fun place to hang out.

 

[Cookster15]

the ludicrous seated attacks that see him accelerate away over very short distances from other riders without any apparent additional effort

Its obvious why Pogacar attracts suspicion but it was not a seated attack today. See my post above with a photo of Pog's attack. Plus he did a seated attack to effectively win the 2021 Tour so this isn't a 2024 invention.

 

[kingjr]

Lol thank you for your attention to this matter and for completely missing the point. I am so glad you are happy with the current "situation" 😍like I said, even the state of the forum has gone bad. (I still really hope I don't get banned again for saying how I feel😅)

I, too, would appreciate it if the others got up to Pogacar's level. If they can't, it's their fault, not his.

Btw, why do you put quotation marks around "situation"?

 

[Ripper]

Exaggeration isn't helpful IMO. Nobody even attempted to follow when he attacked - I was a bit disappointed in Remco not even trying.

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@Bombarolo posted this in the Pogacar thread. It is during Pogacar's attack on Passo di Ganda today - that's a pretty big grimace? Not sure we can say he wasn't breathing hard.

As for aerodynamics, he doesn't look that bad. Remco is still obviously the better TTer. A bullet helped by being two inches shorter but I'd be surprised if UAE with their resources didn't do work with Pogacar in a wind tunnel.

What exaggeration? I was watching the race.

Some team tactics helped with the immediate gap (Vine pulling off and del Toro allowing a gap). But it was a quick 5 seconds from a full on acceleration. I think "no one attempted to follow" belies it was a major watt bomb off a fast pace and no one wanted to blow up - no one wants to blow a gasket early on a climb. It did appear that Remco lifted the pace, just gradually.

Pog looks like a pretty big air scoop from the side. It just tells us that his wattage must all the more hilarious.

 

[Cookster15]

What exaggeration? I was watching the race.

Some team tactics helped with the immediate gap (Vine pulling off and del Toro allowing a gap). But it was a quick 5 seconds from a full on acceleration. I think "no one attempted to follow" belies it was a major watt bomb off a fast pace and no one wanted to blow up - no one wants to blow a gasket early on a climb. It did appear that Remco lifted the pace, just gradually.

Pog looks like a pretty big air scoop from the side. It just tells us that his wattage must all the more hilarious.

He was breathing hard. That's why I linked a photo.

 

[ashhutch1997]

My main issue with Pogacar is since the his transformation post 2023, he's been full gas on top form from February to October, that just isn't human. He shows no sign of fatigue or building form.

 

[Stablo]

My main issue with Pogacar is since the his transformation post 2023, he's been full gas on top form from February to October, that just isn't human. He shows no sign of fatigue or building form.

He wasn't right even before that, but yes exactly this. Vroom vroom 🤡🤯

 

[aphronesis]

He wasn't right even before that, but yes exactly this. Vroom vroom 🤡🤯

My main issue with Pogacar is since the his transformation post 2023, he's been full gas on top form from February to October, that just isn't human. He shows no sign of fatigue or building form.

Just for the sake of argument, how many counter examples (with multiple skills) in the last several years, or few decades, were actually going for it?

 

[Lurkerman]

The discourse on cleanliness and dirtiness makes me smile. There's a demand for sports, also in my country, and folks marvel at how hard work pays off, the potential of natural man come to fruition. It's important to feel like living in a natural meritocracy, and so it's always nice if we can keep on describing social phenomena in sports metaphors for just a little longer. And so panic over dirty doping is, also, a symptom - we see a similar panic over trans athletes, where it's as if nature just doesn't quite fit onto it's prescribed map, it's a good fit overall but just not quite 1:1. As the saying goes, one simply just cannot have good things.

None of this is a dig at Pog, of course, who I think is as clean as they come. I don't like the word "dirty" in this context, as it suggests that you're breaching an ethical standard that the moral majority would naturally be shocked to. One such breach could be to change the very concept of the sport, i.e., to motor-dope (although the concept of the sport is always changing, it's a different sport today, as anyone who has followed the Pog vs. Merckx debates knows) - about this, I stated my opinion in a different thread, namely, that there seem to be few options other than the TdF getting creative in fighting back, could be demanding that the peloton use handed-out rusty bikes and clothes, etc.. As for rich teams potentially having better dope, the poorer also would snort it if they could afford it, and so that doesn't make anyone more or less dirty. Unless, of course, all you meant to say is that rich people inherently are just dirty and smell bad, which is fair enough, just be aware that the forum rules don't allow us to debate communism vs. capitalism, etc.

If my understanding is correct, coffee and carbs are not doping, and so for something to end up being doping, it has to be considered harmful. So to be dirty could mean that you're playing with self-harm. Perhaps, then, we will one day think of even clean, non-doped cyclists as being dirty, I mean Tiberi shot a cat, I wonder if that was just the drugs.

 

[kingjr]

The discourse on cleanliness and dirtiness makes me smile. There's a demand for sports, also in my country, and folks marvel at how hard work pays off, the potential of natural man come to fruition. It's important to feel like living in a natural meritocracy, and so it's always nice if we can keep on describing social phenomena in sports metaphors for just a little longer. And so panic over dirty doping is, also, a symptom - we see a similar panic over trans athletes, where it's as if nature just doesn't quite fit onto it's prescribed map, it's a good fit overall but just not quite 1:1. As the saying goes, one simply just cannot have good things.

None of this is a dig at Pog, of course, who I think is as clean as they come. I don't like the word "dirty" in this context, as it suggests that you're breaching an ethical standard that the moral majority would naturally be shocked to. One such breach could be to change the very concept of the sport, i.e., to motor-dope (although the concept of the sport is always changing, it's a different sport today, as anyone who has followed the Pog vs. Merckx debates knows) - about this, I stated my opinion in a different thread, namely, that there seem to be few options other than the TdF getting creative in fighting back, could be demanding that the peloton use handed-out rusty bikes and clothes, etc.. As for rich teams potentially having better dope, the poorer also would snort it if they could afford it, and so that doesn't make anyone more or less dirty. Unless, of course, all you meant to say is that rich people inherently are just dirty and smell bad, which is fair enough, just be aware that the forum rules don't allow us to debate communism vs. capitalism, etc.

If my understanding is correct, coffee and carbs are not doping, and so for something to end up being doping, it has to be considered harmful. So to be dirty could mean that you're playing with self-harm. Perhaps, then, we will one day think of even clean, non-doped cyclists as being dirty, I mean Tiberi shot a cat, I wonder if that was just the drugs.

I think it was Kimmage for whom it was all about that Dutch guy who supposedly overdosed on EPO in the late 80s/early 90s; I don't know if that stance is relevant/applicable anymore these days.

 

[peterfin]

The difference between Pogacar in TTs and RRs is something that needs explanation beyond a simple "he is better on a road bike" answer. In an RR he attacks 40, 50, 70, 80 km and gains a minute or more on the best TT rider in decades and in a 20, 30, 40 km TT it's basically the opposite. The difference in aerodynamics between a TT setup and RR setup cannot explain the difference. Pogacar spend a lot of time in windtunnels too. Pogacar's attack during a RR with superior climb speed is also only part of the story as it only explains part of the time gap. So it basically must come down to difference in performance decline during a +200 km race? But this is strange too because the attack on the climb should deplete the reserves of Pogacar faster while Remco has exceptional recovery too during a hard race. So what makes Pogacar the better TT rider during the final of a RR while he is so far off in a TT? Merckx excelled at both. Remco excels at both (relative to everyone except Pogacar as we have seen during his last 3 RRs). Pogacar needs the road bike to excel.

 

[Ripper]

He was breathing hard. That's why I linked a photo.

Where was the photo taken on the climb? Looks like it was nearer the top but I've no idea.

I was watching the race and in the first few minutes after he attacked it did not appear that he was working too hard. Perhaps he grimaced the moment I looked away from the screen!

 

[Cookster15]

Where was the photo taken on the climb? Looks like it was nearer the top but I've no idea.

I was watching the race and in the first few minutes after he attacked it did not appear that he was working too hard. Perhaps he grimaced the moment I looked away from the screen!

The photo in that post is clearly a grimace. Obviously you missed that when watching live. Yes maybe nearer the top. But that is also where the effort of his attack would show as the body switches from anaerobic to aerobic and lactic acid energy systems.

It was also not a seated attack as others complain of.

Again, of course I think he is doping so our concern here is unfair advantages. I just prefer to try to be objective. A lot of stuff gets posted in The Clinic which isn’t.

 

[YellowSocks]

Regarding Pogacar's transformation. If you suffer from a chronic illness, or know someone who does, you know that you can spend years on a treatment that doesn't really suit you before a doctor suggests trying something else that ultimately works much better for you. That could explain the transition from 2023 to 2024 (they call it a new coach).

Furthermore, from a Gianetti's point of view, signing young riders who are good, even if not exceptional, while they are not yet receiving the best treatment can be a winning bet as there is hope for significant improvement. I would also put Vingegaard in this category, unlike Remco, who came from soccer and was probably already phosphorescent at the age of 15 and may not have as much room for improvement - don't blame him for not trying to follow Pogacar's attacks, I think he knows his body quite well.

Hence Del Toro, who I guess was on a DIY program before UAE. If a Seixas for example is already on a proper program for years, maybe the announced battle will never happen.

 

[Cookster15]

Furthermore, from a Gianetti's point of view, signing young riders who are good, even if not exceptional, while they are not yet receiving the best treatment can be a winning bet

Yes, that is how I try to explain how Gianetti knew Pogacar would respond to “methods” before he brought him to UAE. He didn’t. It was a calculated guess / risk. I also agree that was how Visma found Vingegaard. Felt sorry for Rogla though.

 

[ivanic]

Such weird hand/finger movements doing the attack, what a fraud.

4:25, slow down the video.
What the hell is he touching with his left thumb (and maybe his right one, too)? What the hell is he touching?
It's the same strange movement seen at Fleche and tdf.

View: https://youtu.be/1WaIa5tLaQo?si=v74l2y4vQOaVrHRr&t=262

Edit.
P.S. the things pog has been doing for the past two seasons are not humanly possible in an endurance sport like cycling. Period.

However, he was not credible in 2021, 2022, 2023. with the PDBF 2020, "coal miner".

 

[how yes no?]

4:25, slow down the video.
What the hell is he touching with his left thumb (and maybe his right one, too)? What the hell is he touching?
It's the same strange movement seen at Fleche and tdf.

there are buttons (usually used for shifting) in di2 shifter on top of hoods Pogi has... now of course for the cult around here, this is just a perfect excuse, cause they will say oh how nice, they just re-programmed the buttons to control the motor ^^

 

[Cookster15]

4:25, slow down the video.
What the hell is he touching with his left thumb (and maybe his right one, too)? What the hell is he touching?
It's the same strange movement seen at Fleche and tdf.

View: https://youtu.be/1WaIa5tLaQo?si=v74l2y4vQOaVrHRr&t=262



However, he was not credible in 2021, 2022, 2023. with the PDBF 2020, "coal miner".

Occum’s Razor says he is shifting.

Anyway someone should send a letter to the UCI asking if they inspected Pog’s bike according to their own motor doping regs. I’d be surprised if they didn’t for a monument. And nothing is stopping other teams asking the same questions behind the scene - after all they are the ones potentially losing sponsorship money.

 

[Ripper]

The photo in that post is clearly a grimace. Obviously you missed that when watching live. Yes maybe nearer the top. But that is also where the effort of his attack would show as the body switches from anaerobic to aerobic and lactic acid energy systems.

It was also not a seated attack as others complain of.

Again, of course I think he is doping so our concern here is unfair advantages. I just prefer to try to be objective. A lot of stuff gets posted in The Clinic which isn’t.

I get that the photo shows a grimace! 🤣 But if it was near the top of the climb, wasn't that like 4-5 kilometers after his attack? My point was that typically after a strong effort you will see signs of heavier breathing/physical compensation, especially if you continue to ride hard. This is important because it suggests Pog could have gone much harder if he needed to.