- Feb 27, 2023
- 683
- 847
- 5,180
IMO Lance was as bad as it gets as a dope but in the same league as the others and an extremely "bad" person compared to other top cyclists. Pog is just ruthless, but what I dislike in him is when he tries to play nice. Just be the ruthless self and write some history.
- Sep 14, 2009
- 6,297
- 3,558
- 23,180
Indeed.
Also worth noting - lancey-poo was not on the exact same program as his teammates, nor was he simply more talented as a responder to doping. His response to doping was, if anything, and indication on how doping is not equal across dopers and that you can buy expertise and means that allow you to deploy a strategy that puts you ahead (by cheating)
Edit - in my opinion
In my opinion the main difference between Pog an Lance is that Lance was the defacto boss and architect of his doping program while Pog is (most likely) the subject of Gianetti's experience-crafted doping program. I think it is very plausible that prior to 2024 this was still relatively contained and consisted of smaller boosts (e.g. CO) but they found the magic combo prior to the 2024 season and scaled it with the right people of low integrity. The UAE management team has this history and with some people such as Allan Peiper out (which I hold to a higher level of integrity), all the ingredients are available to brew the right cocktail. In short, Pog may not be that bad ass initially but he transformed in Darth Vader with Gianetti Palpatine on his side. He is now complicit in the act of cheating, not just "on the edge" but well above it. I actually wonder if this feeling starts to bite him when he understands that he cannot compare his program to others anymore and there is no voice in his head that says: "Everyone does it in a similar way. It's on the edge but it is ok." ? It would explain his downbeat reactions lately. This again shows that he has a better internal compass than Lance but it doesn't make him less of a cheater. Again: this all just my opinion.
The longer time goes on Armstrong is at a distinct advantage to others involved. People still want to talk with him, so he does interviews and podcasts O'plenty and tells a version that is all softened up..something like.. Yes I was bad but so was everyone else. Which depending is true, but Armstrong often leaves out all his privilege and incredible benefits. His team wasn't being showered with endorsement offers and association BS like dating super models, Kate Hudson, Sheryl Crow, hanging with Matthew McCongnehy, Jake Gyletgall, Robin Williams.. everyone wanted to be around. Golden boy. And Armstrong sort of candy coats what he was willing to do to maintain that, keep that. So his version of everyone being the same doesn't really hold up unless they were riding bikes with the sitting President of their country or were flying in private jets everywhere. Sorry Lance, yes other riders could have been gassed equally but nobody was writing books about them, nobody was sending fat paychecks to option their story for movies and TV shows, books.
And now as Lance stepped in multiple buckets of luck. After law enforcement and court system calmed down and he paid his fines..no prison, still left with a place to live, car to drive and critical, money in the bank. And with his leftover loot, made some bets on stuff like Uber and 2,3 other big hitters and the playoffs were huge. I don't know how many millions he made from Uber stock purchase..
Tadej still doesn't make as much money as Armstrong..
And there is very little buzz around him, nothing equivalent to world wide yellow bracelets.. Not even close..
I would love to see name numbers.. LeMond, Fonderiest, Cippiollini, Broadman, Colnago..bet nobody comes close to selling as many bikes as Armstrong did with Trek..I am in a fairly intense cycling area of the US and Colnago is still difficult to buy..Trek still coming off Lance effect.
Pogacar is a fraction of cultural and economic impact of Armstrong.
- Feb 27, 2023
- 683
- 847
- 5,180
Most of what you write is a consequence of being from the USA.
Another thing is that he DID beat cancer and recovered to be a 7 time TdF champion. That counts for something.
- Jul 4, 2016
- 3,521
- 6,313
- 19,180
- Jul 30, 2011
- 7,634
- 147
- 17,680
This has been spiralling out into the usual nonsense. Foremost the tendency to confuse Armstrong’s personality, the spectacular machinery around him and the extent to which he gamed the cycling world with those means, among other things, dope and do what he did. Any hand wringing and moralizing is all well and valid, but it ultimately inhibits and involutes any discussion of the sport’s history when people are unable (by now) to separate and discuss those things on their own. Which leads to a situation of many discussants wanting to have things both ways. Part of what may contribute to the incoherence of the clinic.
As a contemporary, I knew what Armstrong was from the outset and the only reason to invoke him in this thread (or any) is relative to all the typical, accumulated responses, reactions, denials re. suggestions of Pog and doping that bear little acknowledgment of history.
Pulling up that comparison doesn’t equate them as human beings, teammates and so on, which are all related, but satellite to questions of doping. Which is the point of the clinic.
Anyway, I used a term to historicize the Armstrong era that was potentially triggering for some, but the point was to emphasize the socio-economic conditions of his moment as distinct from, but now congruent with some denials of doping.
As a contemporary, I knew what Armstrong was from the outset and the only reason to invoke him in this thread (or any) is relative to all the typical, accumulated responses, reactions, denials re. suggestions of Pog and doping that bear little acknowledgment of history.
Pulling up that comparison doesn’t equate them as human beings, teammates and so on, which are all related, but satellite to questions of doping. Which is the point of the clinic.
Anyway, I used a term to historicize the Armstrong era that was potentially triggering for some, but the point was to emphasize the socio-economic conditions of his moment as distinct from, but now congruent with some denials of doping.
Last edited:
Something to keep in mind, Pogačar is not a commercial tool to make the (main) sponsors money. His purpose is to sportswash the United Arab Emirates. Colnago, likewise, serves its main purpose as a tool in this sportswashing endeavor. They aren't even bothering to make the Y1RS at any decent volume, even though it would fly off the shelves. The UAE team has probably still received more Y1RS frames than the rest of the world combined.
- Jul 30, 2011
- 7,634
- 147
- 17,680
- Jul 30, 2011
- 7,634
- 147
- 17,680
- Jul 30, 2011
- 7,634
- 147
- 17,680
I have no numbers, but wouldn’t that be prestige, opportunistic and fractional? Particle at the monetary level, less the global intersection.
- Jul 30, 2011
- 7,634
- 147
- 17,680
- May 22, 2024
- 507
- 715
- 3,780
in europe pog is more popular tahn lance,but in usa offcourse lance was force.numbers are clear,pantani,induarin or ullrich were even on more juice than lance.and thye looked hilarius on climbs.riis showed that chump can become world beater in 90s,i would argue for big mig or ullrich the same.if we look at results of amateur,its clear pog is doing least amount of juice to psuh these numbers.you cant compare shape pog is in to anyone in 90s.
- Jul 4, 2016
- 3,521
- 6,313
- 19,180
- May 22, 2024
- 507
- 715
- 3,780
- Oct 13, 2024
- 163
- 312
- 1,530
I don't think so, here Lance was known with many non cycling enthousiasts. Pogacar is not.
TRENDING THREADS
-
World Championship 2025: Men’s RR, September 28- Started by Berniece
- Replies: 2K
-
Il Lombardia 2025, monument, October 11- Started by Krzysztof_O
- Replies: 792
-
European Championship 2025: Men’s RR, October 5- Started by Berniece
- Replies: 854
-
Teams & Riders The Remco Evenepoel is the next Eddy Merckx thread- Started by DNP-Old
- Replies: 35K
-
Teams & Riders Tadej Pogačar discussion thread- Started by Lequack
- Replies: 40K
-
World Championship 2025: Men’s ITT, September 21- Started by Berniece
- Replies: 942
-
Teams & Riders The Great Big Cycling Transfers, Extensions, and Rumours Thread- Started by RedheadDane
- Replies: 13K
Facebook
Twitter
Instagram