Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[Divergence]

In my opinion, there have been a few attempts to re-write Lance's history and paint him in a brighter light, but unfortunately the facts keep getting in the way.
What's the motive here? Lance wasn't so bad, so Pog is an angel?

IMO Lance was as bad as it gets as a dope but in the same league as the others and an extremely "bad" person compared to other top cyclists. Pog is just ruthless, but what I dislike in him is when he tries to play nice. Just be the ruthless self and write some history.

 

[Ripper]

In my opinion, there have been a few attempts to re-write Lance's history and paint him in a brighter light, but unfortunately the facts keep getting in the way.
What's the motive here? Lance wasn't so bad, so Pog is an angel?

Indeed.

Also worth noting - lancey-poo was not on the exact same program as his teammates, nor was he simply more talented as a responder to doping. His response to doping was, if anything, and indication on how doping is not equal across dopers and that you can buy expertise and means that allow you to deploy a strategy that puts you ahead (by cheating)

Edit - in my opinion

 

[peterfin]

In my opinion the main difference between Pog an Lance is that Lance was the defacto boss and architect of his doping program while Pog is (most likely) the subject of Gianetti's experience-crafted doping program. I think it is very plausible that prior to 2024 this was still relatively contained and consisted of smaller boosts (e.g. CO) but they found the magic combo prior to the 2024 season and scaled it with the right people of low integrity. The UAE management team has this history and with some people such as Allan Peiper out (which I hold to a higher level of integrity), all the ingredients are available to brew the right cocktail. In short, Pog may not be that bad ass initially but he transformed in Darth Vader with Gianetti Palpatine on his side. He is now complicit in the act of cheating, not just "on the edge" but well above it. I actually wonder if this feeling starts to bite him when he understands that he cannot compare his program to others anymore and there is no voice in his head that says: "Everyone does it in a similar way. It's on the edge but it is ok." ? It would explain his downbeat reactions lately. This again shows that he has a better internal compass than Lance but it doesn't make him less of a cheater. Again: this all just my opinion.

 

[Unchained]

In my opinion, there have been a few attempts to re-write Lance's history and paint him in a brighter light, but unfortunately the facts keep getting in the way.
What's the motive here? Lance wasn't so bad, so Pog is an angel?

The longer time goes on Armstrong is at a distinct advantage to others involved. People still want to talk with him, so he does interviews and podcasts O'plenty and tells a version that is all softened up..something like.. Yes I was bad but so was everyone else. Which depending is true, but Armstrong often leaves out all his privilege and incredible benefits. His team wasn't being showered with endorsement offers and association BS like dating super models, Kate Hudson, Sheryl Crow, hanging with Matthew McCongnehy, Jake Gyletgall, Robin Williams.. everyone wanted to be around. Golden boy. And Armstrong sort of candy coats what he was willing to do to maintain that, keep that. So his version of everyone being the same doesn't really hold up unless they were riding bikes with the sitting President of their country or were flying in private jets everywhere. Sorry Lance, yes other riders could have been gassed equally but nobody was writing books about them, nobody was sending fat paychecks to option their story for movies and TV shows, books.
And now as Lance stepped in multiple buckets of luck. After law enforcement and court system calmed down and he paid his fines..no prison, still left with a place to live, car to drive and critical, money in the bank. And with his leftover loot, made some bets on stuff like Uber and 2,3 other big hitters and the playoffs were huge. I don't know how many millions he made from Uber stock purchase..

Tadej still doesn't make as much money as Armstrong..
And there is very little buzz around him, nothing equivalent to world wide yellow bracelets.. Not even close..
I would love to see name numbers.. LeMond, Fonderiest, Cippiollini, Broadman, Colnago..bet nobody comes close to selling as many bikes as Armstrong did with Trek..I am in a fairly intense cycling area of the US and Colnago is still difficult to buy..Trek still coming off Lance effect.
Pogacar is a fraction of cultural and economic impact of Armstrong.

 

[Divergence]

The longer time goes on Armstrong is at a distinct advantage to others involved. People still want to talk with him, so he does interviews and podcasts O'plenty and tells a version that is all softened up..something like.. Yes I was bad but so was everyone else. Which depending is true, but Armstrong often leaves out all his privilege and incredible benefits. His team wasn't being showered with endorsement offers and association BS like dating super models, Kate Hudson, Sheryl Crow, hanging with Matthew McCongnehy, Jake Gyletgall, Robin Williams.. everyone wanted to be around. Golden boy. And Armstrong sort of candy coats what he was willing to do to maintain that, keep that. So his version of everyone being the same doesn't really hold up unless they were riding bikes with the sitting President of their country or were flying in private jets everywhere. Sorry Lance, yes other riders could have been gassed equally but nobody was writing books about them, nobody was sending fat paychecks to option their story for movies and TV shows, books.
And now as Lance stepped in multiple buckets of luck. After law enforcement and court system calmed down and he paid his fines..no prison, still left with a place to live, car to drive and critical, money in the bank. And with his leftover loot, made some bets on stuff like Uber and 2,3 other big hitters and the playoffs were huge. I don't know how many millions he made from Uber stock purchase..

Tadej still doesn't make as much money as Armstrong..
And there is very little buzz around him, nothing equivalent to world wide yellow bracelets.. Not even close..
I would love to see name numbers.. LeMond, Fonderiest, Cippiollini, Broadman, Colnago..bet nobody comes close to selling as many bikes as Armstrong did with Trek..I am in a fairly intense cycling area of the US and Colnago is still difficult to buy..Trek still coming off Lance effect.
Pogacar is a fraction of cultural and economic impact of Armstrong.

Most of what you write is a consequence of being from the USA.
Another thing is that he DID beat cancer and recovered to be a 7 time TdF champion. That counts for something.

 

[topcat]

(IMO) Not this time, Lance.

View: https://youtu.be/6gItPTBGMz0?si=wjK4MlDBeBBA2P_z

 

[aphronesis]

This has been spiralling out into the usual nonsense. Foremost the tendency to confuse Armstrong’s personality, the spectacular machinery around him and the extent to which he gamed the cycling world with those means, among other things, dope and do what he did. Any hand wringing and moralizing is all well and valid, but it ultimately inhibits and involutes any discussion of the sport’s history when people are unable (by now) to separate and discuss those things on their own. Which leads to a situation of many discussants wanting to have things both ways. Part of what may contribute to the incoherence of the clinic.

As a contemporary, I knew what Armstrong was from the outset and the only reason to invoke him in this thread (or any) is relative to all the typical, accumulated responses, reactions, denials re. suggestions of Pog and doping that bear little acknowledgment of history.

Pulling up that comparison doesn’t equate them as human beings, teammates and so on, which are all related, but satellite to questions of doping. Which is the point of the clinic.

Anyway, I used a term to historicize the Armstrong era that was potentially triggering for some, but the point was to emphasize the socio-economic conditions of his moment as distinct from, but now congruent with some denials of doping.

 

[toxin]

Tadej still doesn't make as much money as Armstrong..
And there is very little buzz around him, nothing equivalent to world wide yellow bracelets.. Not even close..
I would love to see name numbers.. LeMond, Fonderiest, Cippiollini, Broadman, Colnago..bet nobody comes close to selling as many bikes as Armstrong did with Trek..I am in a fairly intense cycling area of the US and Colnago is still difficult to buy..Trek still coming off Lance effect.
Pogacar is a fraction of cultural and economic impact of Armstrong.

Something to keep in mind, Pogačar is not a commercial tool to make the (main) sponsors money. His purpose is to sportswash the United Arab Emirates. Colnago, likewise, serves its main purpose as a tool in this sportswashing endeavor. They aren't even bothering to make the Y1RS at any decent volume, even though it would fly off the shelves. The UAE team has probably still received more Y1RS frames than the rest of the world combined.

 

[aphronesis]

Who suggested that P was making direct money for the Emirates?

 

[toxin]

The suggestion was that he was making money for Colnago.

 

[aphronesis]

And, there wasn’t any discussion of Emirates profit.

 

[toxin]

Colnago is majority Emirati owned

 

[aphronesis]

I have no numbers, but wouldn’t that be prestige, opportunistic and fractional? Particle at the monetary level, less the global intersection.

 

[toxin]

I don't even know what you're trying to say with that

 

[aphronesis]

Emirates owning Colnago means them westernizing a portfolio. What else?

 

[BubbaChuck]

in europe pog is more popular tahn lance,but in usa offcourse lance was force.numbers are clear,pantani,induarin or ullrich were even on more juice than lance.and thye looked hilarius on climbs.riis showed that chump can become world beater in 90s,i would argue for big mig or ullrich the same.if we look at results of amateur,its clear pog is doing least amount of juice to psuh these numbers.you cant compare shape pog is in to anyone in 90s.

 

[topcat]

in europe pog is more popular tahn lance,but in usa offcourse lance was force.numbers are clear,pantani,induarin or ullrich were even on more juice than lance.and thye looked hilarius on climbs.riis showed that chump can become world beater in 90s,i would argue for big mig or ullrich the same.if we look at results of amateur,its clear pog is doing least amount of juice to psuh these numbers.you cant compare shape pog is in to anyone in 90s.

In your opinion.

 

[BubbaChuck]

off course,its always imo.tahst agiven.

 

[dr.eve]

in europe pog is more popular tahn lance,but in usa offcourse lance was force.numbers are clear,pantani,induarin or ullrich were even on more juice than lance.and thye looked hilarius on climbs.riis showed that chump can become world beater in 90s,i would argue for big mig or ullrich the same.if we look at results of amateur,its clear pog is doing least amount of juice to psuh these numbers.you cant compare shape pog is in to anyone in 90s.

I don't think so, here Lance was known with many non cycling enthousiasts. Pogacar is not.

 

[BubbaChuck]

probably,but gotta push agenda,cause rooted for ullrich back than,lmaoo.

 

[Revelation]

Pogacar beat peak Roglic with a superteam, without himself having a team, in the biggest race in cycling, as a 21 year old Michelin Man (by the standards of a top GT rider). Seixas now at 19 has a physique miles better than he did winning the 21 Tdf for example. There's so much performance to be gained from him shedding all that fat alone (which he finally did for 24) and achieving the desired physique.

With that, and by doing performances like Vuelta stage 20, Peyresourde and TT, I would strongly argue that even taking account his crash in 2023, which definitely affected his performance the rest of the year; if he only improved a bit from that imagined 2023 level for his peak it would've been very disappointing. For me the projection after 2021, considering his performance and how he looked, always screamed BOAT-level or close.

That's why I believe in the argued massive difference between San Millan and Sola, and think the more suspicious activity happens earlier. Maybe everyone is forced to receive gene manipulation/nanomachines right after signing for UAE, yet it only benefits a small %.

 

[Revelation]

Also, is it confirmed that Ayuso was under San Millan and del Toro under Sola, for the whole time?

 

[Red Rick]

Yes, a guy being the best rider in the world by using training methods a decade out of date makes all of the sense in the world

Shame there's no sense left in this world.

 

[Tim Cahill]

Also, is it confirmed that Ayuso was under San Millan and del Toro under Sola, for the whole time?

Del Toro is trained by Jeroen Swart, Ayuso by Inigo since a young age (17?)

I don't believe the change in 'coach' was what led to the sudden upsurge in overall power profile, although it may have given him an extra percent or two, perhaps adding a little bit of durability too.

 

[Unchained]

Most of what you write is a consequence of being from the USA.
Another thing is that he DID beat cancer and recovered to be a 7 time TdF champion. That counts for something.

That counts for everything, not a little something. Lance Armstrong, despite being American was a world wide phenomenon, his bike racing was complimentary to his conquering cancer story.
Bike racing wise Tadej Pogacar looks likely to break most existing records but as of now he is nowhere near what Armstrong accomplished in wealth or public recognition globally. Pogacar is isolated in a cycling bubble, Armstrong was not his biggest impact was outside cycling. If you are just comparing Armstrong and Pogacar using bike racing metrics, Tadej is superior.