Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[aphronesis]

Gianetti had it covered, until it slipped through his fingers...But now he has the right industrial backers.

Yeah. Skimming what I could find, it’s not clear that he and/or the Cobra had the mental rigor and infrastructure to hold it down back then.

 

[Extinction]

Yeah. Skimming what I could find, it’s not clear that he and/or the Cobra had the mental rigor and infrastructure to hold it down back then.

I think at the time he, Cobra, did and was actually suprised how good he was becoming. He showed it on many levels that season, physically, but, above all, mentality, enhanced as he was by the magical arcanum, a transformative substance that elevates from lead to gold.

 

[aphronesis]

Maybe that’s part of the point. It’s one thing to be that age and drilling it; it’s another to have the professional nous to hold it together. The latter seems missing.

 

[Cookster15]

Riccò was red hot, brazen and full of fight, so yea, if I've gotten what you mean by translate against the field.

I did watch the 2008 Tour closely and you are stretching my memory but absolutely no - Riccò wasn’t considered a genuine GC threat before his team was yanked in that Tour (CERA scandal). As for Riccò being strong out of the Giro, for a few MTFs maybe but no way for the full three weeks. Riccò was no Pantani let alone Pogacar backing up with a grand tour in his legs. Nobody would rank Contador below Riccò at his best. Yet the Giro/Tour double was too much even for AC. To suggest Riccò might have challenged for the GC win in the 2008 Tour is too much and rather insulting to Carlos, the Schleck brothers and Cadel.

I note Riccò was 2’29” down on Evans in yellow when he was yanked before stage 12. Didn’t set the world on fire on Hautacam the day before either. Sure Gianetti had Piepoli and Cobo take that stage but if Riccò was a true wonderboy it would be him allowed in that attack rather than those two.

Riccò seemed hyped to me, a 57Kg pure climber but hopeless in TT (unless it was a MTT). I suggest that's why Riccò wasn't competing for the win on Hautacam that day rather than Piepoli and Cobo. Gianetti’s prowess came later. Gianetti's CERA attempt was also foiled at that Tour.

I say if Gianetti is a maestro with that extra €10mil budget to spend it could be in corruption, but not sports science. IMO, testers looking the other way is the only credible theory put forward in this entire thread which might explain how Pogacar might have an unfair advantage against other current day dopers.

a transformative substance that elevates from lead to gold.

A substance? Why would Gianetti take that risk? ANY substance runs the risk of detection by the passport - including don't forget retrospective testing. So I think the only realistic way a transformative substance could make a modern day rival to Merckyx is via UCI collusion.

 

[Red Rick]

UAE literally have a team doctor on the UCI medical board. They probably know best what risks to avoid and what risks to push.

 

[aphronesis]

I did watch the 2008 Tour closely and you are stretching my memory but absolutely no - Riccò wasn’t considered a genuine GC threat before his team was yanked in that Tour (CERA scandal). As for Riccò being strong out of the Giro, for a few MTFs maybe but no way for the full three weeks. Riccò was no Pantani let alone Pogacar backing up with a grand tour in his legs. Nobody would rank Contador below Riccò at his best. Yet the Giro/Tour double was too much even for AC. To suggest Riccò might have challenged for the GC win in the 2008 Tour is too much and rather insulting to Carlos, the Schleck brothers and Cadel.

I note Riccò was 2’29” down on Evans in yellow when he was yanked before stage 12. Didn’t set the world on fire on Hautacam the day before either. Sure Gianetti had Piepoli and Cobo take that stage but if Riccò was a true wonderboy it would be him allowed in that attack rather than those two.

Riccò seemed hyped to me, a 57Kg pure climber but hopeless in TT (unless it was a MTT). I suggest that's why Riccò wasn't competing for the win on Hautacam that day rather than Piepoli and Cobo. Gianetti’s prowess came later. Gianetti's CERA attempt was also foiled at that Tour.

I say if Gianetti is a maestro with that extra €10mil budget to spend it could be in corruption, but not sports science. IMO, testers looking the other way is the only credible theory put forward in this entire thread which might explain how Pogacar might have an unfair advantage against other current day dopers.



A substance? Why would Gianetti take that risk? ANY substance runs the risk of detection by the passport - including don't forget retrospective testing. So I think the only realistic way a transformative substance could make a modern day rival to Merckyx is via UCI collusion.

My sense is (and I posted it) is that whatever Riis brought was lost when he and Contador separated.

 

[Extinction]

I did watch the 2008 Tour closely and you are stretching my memory but absolutely no - Riccò wasn’t considered a genuine GC threat before his team was yanked in that Tour (CERA scandal). As for Riccò being strong out of the Giro, for a few MTFs maybe but no way for the full three weeks. Riccò was no Pantani let alone Pogacar backing up with a grand tour in his legs. Nobody would rank Contador below Riccò at his best. Yet the Giro/Tour double was too much even for AC. To suggest Riccò might have challenged for the GC win in the 2008 Tour is too much and rather insulting to Carlos, the Schleck brothers and Cadel.

I note Riccò was 2’29” down on Evans in yellow when he was yanked before stage 12. Didn’t set the world on fire on Hautacam the day before either. Sure Gianetti had Piepoli and Cobo take that stage but if Riccò was a true wonderboy it would be him allowed in that attack rather than those two.

Riccò seemed hyped to me, a 57Kg pure climber but hopeless in TT (unless it was a MTT). I suggest that's why Riccò wasn't competing for the win on Hautacam that day rather than Piepoli and Cobo. Gianetti’s prowess came later. Gianetti's CERA attempt was also foiled at that Tour.

I say if Gianetti is a maestro with that extra €10mil budget to spend it could be in corruption, but not sports science. IMO, testers looking the other way is the only credible theory put forward in this entire thread which might explain how Pogacar might have an unfair advantage against other current day dopers.



A substance? Why would Gianetti take that risk? ANY substance runs the risk of detection by the passport - including don't forget retrospective testing. So I think the only realistic way a transformative substance could make a modern day rival to Merckyx is via UCI collusion.

You obviously were'nt watching in 2008. Don't miss the sprints next year, you might lose something.

 

[Extinction]

My sense is (and I posted it) is that whatever Riis brought was lost when he and Contador separated.

Aye, matey, but let's see what happens if Gianetti goes down. Somehow, however, with UAE petrol dollars, me thinks that won't happen. 🍿

 

[Cookster15]

My sense is (and I posted it) is that whatever Riis brought was lost when he and Contador separated.

What I recall was Contador lost some power but became a more attacking rider after he returned from his ban. Not sure if that coincided with losing Riis? Contador 2009 TdF was the best ever seen - better than 2011 Giro. In 2009 AC had to overcome his own team who were supporting Lance. He also beat Cancellara at Annecy.

But to suggest Ricco could ever rival AC in a fair fight is far fetched IMO.

 

[Cookster15]

UAE literally have a team doctor on the UCI medical board. They probably know best what risks to avoid and what risks to push.

And I really don’t know how this is allowed? If I am Red Bull or Visma, not to mention those teams’ sponsors I would be furious and demanding an explanation - at least behind closed doors.

Even if nothing untoward is going on the optics for the UCI are appalling.

 

[Unchained]

Aye, matey, but let's see what happens if Gianetti goes down. Somehow, however, with UAE petrol dollars, me thinks that won't happen. 🍿

I enjoy pirate voice posts

 

[aphronesis]

And I really don’t know how this is allowed? If I am Red Bull or Visma, not to mention those teams’ sponsors I would be furious and demanding an explanation - at least behind closed doors.

Even if nothing untoward is going on the optics for the UCI are appalling.

In response to your Riis/Contador post, 2014 is an unknown. Nibali on the cobbles and his tactical savvy are fine, but that’s not how things were looking for the overall.

It seemed after that year that Contador lost some program when Tinkoff became dominant.

As for this, you see business all over the world?With UCI as a microcosm of that. What would the other teams say? “Fine, we’ll leave”

 

[TheKidsCallMeBoss]

At the Olympic Games and the Tour de France, different organizations are responsible for doping controls, even though they all operate under the same international rules — the World Anti-Doping Code (WADA Code).

Olympic Games​

• Doping controls are handled by the International Testing Agency (ITA).
• The ITA is an independent organization that conducts doping tests on behalf of the International Olympic Committee (IOC).

Tour de France​

• For the Tour de France, responsibility lies with the Union Cycliste Internationale (UCI) — the world governing body of cycling.
• The UCI also cooperates with the International Testing Agency (ITA). Since 2021, the ITA has been conducting doping controls on behalf of the UCI, including those during the Tour de France.

In short​

• Olympics: ITA → on behalf of the IOC
• Tour de France: ITA → on behalf of the UCI

So, the ITA is involved in both cases, but the governing bodies are different (IOC vs. UCI)

UCI + UAE = business partner = no problem as the UCI doesn´t want to lose his best asset (Pogi), the UAE Tour, World Tour teams and the venue for future World Championships (2028).

IOC = probably more strict

That's completely false. ITA has an entire unit dedicated to doping control in cycling. It doesn't matter whether it's the Olympics or the Tour de France, the same people are responsible for testing - https://ita.sport/news/ita-cycling-unit-fully-operational-since-1-january-2021/

 

[kingjr]

Isn't the analysis of the tests done at WADA-accredited labs in both cases anyway?

 

[Unchained]

UAE literally have a team doctor on the UCI medical board. They probably know best what risks to avoid and what risks to push.

A thing that is kind of funny is that yes there is random testing but also results based so if the podium walks into the trailer to pee, doesn't exactly take top detective work to figure out who the sample belongs to..
I just keep imagining the people working in control that have to physically observe the rider giving the sample and the plastic jar having that green glow like antifreeze or something..

That's completely false. ITA has an entire unit dedicated to doping control in cycling. It doesn't matter whether it's the Olympics or the Tour de France, the same people are responsible for testing - https://ita.sport/news/ita-cycling-unit-fully-operational-since-1-january-2021/

** I don't know** but the trailers and people inside at big races are ITA employees?

 

[TheKidsCallMeBoss]

A thing that is kind of funny is that yes there is random testing but also results based so if the podium walks into the trailer to pee, doesn't exactly take top detective work to figure out who the sample belongs to..
I just keep imagining the people working in control that have to physically observe the rider giving the sample and the plastic jar having that green glow like antifreeze or something..

** I don't know** but the trailers and people inside at big races are ITA employees?

Do you know how internet search engines work?

Throughout the race, sample collection will be executed primarily by the ITA’s own experienced personnel, including 13 expert doping control and blood collection officers. The ITA is also coordinating closely with the French National Anti-Doping Organisation (AFLD), whose sample collection staff will contribute to the testing operations. Additional cooperation with local, national, and international authorities will support operational execution and intelligence exchange

International Testing Agency-The ITA to deliver – on behalf of the UCI – a comprehensive, intelligence-driven anti-doping program for the 2025 Tour de France

ita.sport

 

[Rob5091]

Nowadays WADA & the UCi go out with a testing year so everyone knows what to stop taking e.g. Tramadol.
It seems that the teams with big bucks have the same testing equipment (or access to) as WADA labs so it's easy-peasy to be within the limits. What UAE found for Pogi though is still a mystery unles it's a big fat enevelope under the table, or a "Lance type" donation to UCI.

 

[Mayomaniac]

Nowadays WADA & the UCi go out with a testing year so everyone knows what to stop taking e.g. Tramadol.
It seems that the teams with big bucks have the same testing equipment (or access to) as WADA labs so it's easy-peasy to be within the limits. What UAE found for Pogi though is still a mystery unles it's a big fat enevelope under the table, or a "Lance type" donation to UCI.

The Emirates are hosting road, track, granfondo and all kind of meme WCs (urban cycling and e-cycling) in the coming years and already over the last few years, so it's really extra to hide some extra payments here and there, since there is already a big official money trail from the Emirates to the UCI...

 

[Cookster15]

The Emirates are hosting road, track, granfondo and all kind of meme WCs (urban cycling and e-cycling) in the coming years and already over the last few years, so it's really extra to hide some extra payments here and there, since there is already a big official money trail from the Emirates to the UCI...

I think Red Bull spend more global brand awareness than Emirates / UAE? e.g. Formula One and now professional cycling too. In 2024, Red Bull's total global marketing budget was estimated to be over $3 billion. Team UAE's total budget is a meagre €60 million. A lot of money in unhealthy energy drinks!

But if I was Red Bull I'd be asking questions what is going on between the UCI and UAE - at least behind closed doors to avoid the wrath of defamation suits.

 

[peterfin]

I think Red Bull spend more global brand awareness than Emirates / UAE? e.g. Formula One and now professional cycling too. In 2024, Red Bull's total global marketing budget was estimated to be over $3 billion. Team UAE's total budget is a meagre €60 million. A lot of money in unhealthy energy drinks!

But if I was Red Bull I'd be asking questions what is going on between the UCI and UAE - at least behind closed doors to avoid the wrath of defamation suits.

Red Bull's cycling team budget is less than UAE and Red Bull's overall marketing budget is less than UAE's marketing capabilities too. UAE has the third largest sovereign wealth assets in the world (2.5 trillion USD).

 

[Cookster15]

Red Bull's cycling team budget is less than UAE and Red Bull's overall marketing budget is less than UAE's marketing capabilities too. UAE has the third largest sovereign wealth assets in the world (2.5 trillion USD).

RB's cycling team budget is about 20% less than UAE's cycling budget. But I think this and the UAE government resources are of academic interest only. We see people here suggesting oil money might help cover up Gianetti's (or Gianetti's doctors') work. Well what about Formula 1 - Red Bull?

From Google: Formula 1 is a global behemoth, ranked as the world's most popular annual sporting series with an estimated 827 million fans. While its global audience is smaller than that of soccer (football), it is one of the fastest-growing sports and surpasses many other sports in terms of global reach, growth rate, and revenue. Its popularity is fueled by a combination of global TV viewership, live attendance, and a massive social media presence.

Red Bull plays - and wins - in that game. Do you think RB would be happy getting short changed on their investment in cycling by the UAE government? Do you think the UAE government would be that desperate to spend more ? I think it comes back to value for money, but I can't see the business case for UAE.

But regardless of UAE resources, I am sure Red Bull has the resources to lobby the UCI behind the scenes to ensure their investment in cycling isn't devalued by a lopsided playing field - that doesn't cost billions let alone trillions.

 

[Oldman]

UAE literally have a team doctor on the UCI medical board. They probably know best what risks to avoid and what risks to push.

Great point. Knowing when the heat is coming can be everything. That's why some pros carry two phones....

 

[TheKidsCallMeBoss]

I wonder how difficult it is to understand that it is not the UCI that conducts doping tests, but the ITA and national anti-doping agencies. The UCI has no influence whatsoever on the operation of the ITA or NADAs, which are completely independent.

The UCI has rules that go beyond WADA guidelines when it comes to cyclists' health, banning substances such as Tramadol and devices such as CO rebreathers. But there is no evidence that any team pays to the UCI to abuse these rules.

The CO rebreather story also illustrates the 'clinic's' fantasy world when it speculates about financial doping by the UAE. Visma and IPT used a €50,000 CO rebreather, while UAE used a €5,000 one lol

 

[solo80k]

I'd like TEG (Enhanced Games) to include cycling in the program. Imagine MTT on PdB to check how fast openly doped cyclists can climb there and if they have any chance with Pogacar. 😅

 

[Rico044]

I'd like TEG (Enhanced Games) to include cycling in the program. Imagine MTT on PdB to check how fast openly doped cyclists can climb there and if they have any chance with Pogacar. 😅

This will be the irony with the Enhanced Games- people will scratch their heads when these "enhanced" athletes aren't going any faster than the "clean" people.