Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[aphronesis]

UCI isn’t so interested in anti-doping as much as internal control. By the looks of it. That doesn’t differ from large money sport. So where would the reformation come from?

 

[peterfin]

UCI isn’t so interested in anti-doping as much as internal control. By the looks of it. That doesn’t differ from large money sport. So where would the reformation come from?

That's the question. The UCI cares about external perception. Unless media and other external forces start to casts doubts, their processes won't change. As a result, a lot can go on beneath the surface without triggering a response. Most of the time an event is needed to trigger change: helmets (Casartelli), motor doping checks (Cancellara was the ongoing rumour, Van den Driesse the case), SaFeR (Mäder), program of EPO and blood doping checks by UCI (French customs captured Willy Voet).

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

It's weird how cycling works ( doesn't) often backwards, often years, decades behind other sports.
And even the way cycling thinks and acts about drugs is completely out of touch, alternate reality.
Many drugs have off label uses that have far surpassed the original purpose. Viagra and Rogaine are both wildly profitable and popular off label drugs. In cycling circles all kinds of speculation about who, how to detect drugs but never the root conversation, what did Amgen say to the UCI when they asked how to detect their product in humans.
What was the response of Amgen when they found that EPO was being used by endurance athletes instead of people who are anemic from serious health complications.
What is Amgen's stance on off label use?
Amgen was obviously able to detect EPO in users, detect levels and test placebo groups to ensure no trace amounts or accidental consumption during clinical trails and beyond..
If the UCI is having a hide and seek hard time detecting a drug in an athlete's system, does Amgen have the same problems?
Why would you ask anyone else first?
I would be curious to see the hundreds if not thousands of back and forth between Amgen and the UCI about can the company help for the obvious misuse of their product.. That's likely from an alternative reality, UCI probably has not even approached Amgen about collaborating or clinical solutions.
What do other sports say to the UCI when the desperate, spiraling out of control UCI asks..
What is your doping program look like and how do you implement it?
How much does it cost?
Why don't we hear about your sports in the media about doping controversy? Or positive tests that define your sport, define the narrative surrounding your sport? What can't we get right in cycling that every other sport appears to have found workable solutions? Help us! We can't get it right. We have tried and failed, it's killing the sport..anyone please help,
signed sincerely UCI
First thing UCI needs to do is clean house and immediately fire top @10-15 people in the chain of command and ask if their replacement knows anything about cycling, cycling history, if they say yes, don't hire them. Hire people from outside the cycling bubble, and if you hire someone from Amazon, Google, Total Energies, local coffee shop , football, rugby, F1_and they have zero cycling experience, zero knowledge of the sport, don't worry, things can't get worse, they just can't get worse.

I thought testing was in the hands of national agencies, not the UCI.
Adding items to the banned list beyond what WADA lay down, determining who gets tested on race days and who is to be subject to ADAMS whereabouts requirements: those are (I thought) the main, or only, sport specific involvements prior to the labs returning adverse findings.

 

[Rob5091]

I thought testing was in the hands of national agencies, not the UCI.
Adding items to the banned list beyond what WADA lay down, determining who gets tested on race days and who is to be subject to ADAMS whereabouts requirements: those are (I thought) the main, or only, sport specific involvements prior to the labs returning adverse findings.

https://www.uci.org/pressrelease/uci-statement-concerning-martti-sciortino2/6LSIAEbHLYFbHiRMGN2Has

The UCI delegated its anti-doping programme to the International Testing Agency (ITA) in January 2021, whilst retaining results management and the prosecution of anti-doping rules violations. Since then, cycling’s clean sport efforts have been led by the ITA Cycling Unit, which is dedicated specifically to all disciplines of cycling. The UCI and the ITA are bound by a service agreement which guarantees that the ITA operates in an independent manner.

 

[dr.eve]

Thanks for this. What your post reminds is that this is a complicated subject.

Of your 'what you can get away with' list, I think all the teams and top riders would be trying that. It then comes back to your latter points.

I don't know enough about how all these substances work but some of them should still trigger in the passport e.g. synthetic hemoglobin / Erythromer will still cause elevated HCT / HGB. But I don't think the passport is policed as well as it can in theory. That has also been mentioned before in The Clinic.

And I still wonder how Gianetti stumbled upon a super responder when he was only 19 years old? Just lucky?

Sportswashing might be a valid motivator for UAE but we need to be careful not to introduce political discussions here. But UAE are financially capable of playing in Formula 1 rather than a 2nd string Euro centric global sport like cycling. Plus, other teams have potentially big pockets too - particularly Red Bull whose marketing budget is several billion Euro per annum.

There is a big flaw on your side... 'be careful not to introduce political discussions here'.

Im fact, political reasons may be one of the biggest drivers for gaining an advantage, bending the rules, bribing, straight out cheating et cetera.

And it's often also visible in plain sight.

But hey let's not mix politics with sports...

 

[aphronesis]

There is a big flaw on your side... 'be careful not to introduce political discussions here'.

Im fact, political reasons may be one of the biggest drivers for gaining an advantage, bending the rules, bribing, straight out cheating et cetera.

And it's often also visible in plain sight.

But hey let's not mix politics with sports...

This can’t go too far under current forum rules, but there may be arguments to the effect that some context allows doping less than distinctly motivates it. Both, maybe, in the case of some recent teams.

 

[Unchained]

There is a big flaw on your side... 'be careful not to introduce political discussions here'.

Im fact, political reasons may be one of the biggest drivers for gaining an advantage, bending the rules, bribing, straight out cheating et cetera.

And it's often also visible in plain sight.

But hey let's not mix politics with sports...

What an absolutely crazy angle! Almost everything..99.9999999% of everything involved, discussed is economics nothing, zero to do with politics. The UCI doesn't have a comprehensive doping control program because they don't want to pay for it. There certainly should be a geographic and nationality component to doping control program in pro cycling. Do riders from one country or another come up positive or irregular more than another country? Does one country test more, test less than another country? Those things should have already been transparent, those data points are not available in part because the UCI doesn't pay for them. Other important things in easy to understand formats.. Example.. All WT riders should be tested @4 times a year.. Every 90 days and results, pass or fail should be posted within the @90 window on previous test. The reason that tests are not done are financial, economics.
The reason that the UCI doesn't ask football, cricket, rugby, handball, baseball, basketball what they do that avoids the brutal scandals that cycling has suffered, the only reasonable answer that UCI is using a problematic doping control system that no other sport uses is economics..

I thought testing was in the hands of national agencies, not the UCI.
Adding items to the banned list beyond what WADA lay down, determining who gets tested on race days and who is to be subject to ADAMS whereabouts requirements: those are (I thought) the main, or only, sport specific involvements prior to the labs returning adverse findings.

This is probably one of the best, most self exploratory posts, true definition of what is wrong. The UCI should be the central data gathering agency, the UCI should be setting the consistent standard, UCI should be agency that established the singular policy that all others comply with.. There should not be any, zero variation between countries, federations in how riders are tested.
And never is it answered about what was said and done between UCI and Amgen for example about endurance athletes misusing the Amgen product referred here as EPO. If Amgen wasn't asked to help, if they were asked to help and said no..if Amgen was asked to help in identifying riders using EPO, and said yes, here's the cost. All those things should be part of the discussion. Economics should be the first thing in the conversation, how much to test every rider 3-4 times a year.. If UCI and subcontractors have not been able to reliably detect drugs in riders, EPO for example since Armstrong, what, who is the solution? How much does it cost. It's obvious to anyone paying attention that a multiple prong , multiple agencies, multiple years for results approach to catching drug cheats doesn't work, it hasn't worked, can't expect it to work in the future. Keep on doing what you are doing, keep getting what you are getting.. Why pretend anything will be different.
The most logical place to find out how to detect EPO in humans would be Amgen, they developed EPO, they detected it in humans as part of clinical trails and drugs effectiveness.. It's how and why they made the drug, economics, to sell it and make money.

 

[dr.eve]

What an absolutely crazy angle! Almost everything..99.9999999% of everything involved, discussed is economics nothing, zero to do with politics. The UCI doesn't have a comprehensive doping control program because they don't want to pay for it. There certainly should be a geographic and nationality component to doping control program in pro cycling. Do riders from one country or another come up positive or irregular more than another country? Does one country test more, test less than another country? Those things should have already been transparent, those data points are not available in part because the UCI doesn't pay for them. Other important things in easy to understand formats.. Example.. All WT riders should be tested @4 times a year.. Every 90 days and results, pass or fail should be posted within the @90 window on previous test. The reason that tests are not done are financial, economics.
The reason that the UCI doesn't ask football, cricket, rugby, handball, baseball, basketball what they do that avoids the brutal scandals that cycling has suffered, the only reasonable answer that UCI is using a problematic doping control system that no other sport uses is economics..

This is probably one of the best, most self exploratory posts, true definition of what is wrong. The UCI should be the central data gathering agency, the UCI should be setting the consistent standard, UCI should be agency that established the singular policy that all others comply with.. There should not be any, zero variation between countries, federations in how riders are tested.
And never is it answered about what was said and done between UCI and Amgen for example about endurance athletes misusing the Amgen product referred here as EPO. If Amgen wasn't asked to help, if they were asked to help and said no..if Amgen was asked to help in identifying riders using EPO, and said yes, here's the cost. All those things should be part of the discussion. Economics should be the first thing in the conversation, how much to test every rider 3-4 times a year.. If UCI and subcontractors have not been able to reliably detect drugs in riders, EPO for example since Armstrong, what, who is the solution? How much does it cost. It's obvious to anyone paying attention that a multiple prong , multiple agencies, multiple years for results approach to catching drug cheats doesn't work, it hasn't worked, can't expect it to work in the future. Keep on doing what you are doing, keep getting what you are getting.. Why pretend anything will be different.
The most logical place to find out how to detect EPO in humans would be Amgen, they developed EPO, they detected it in humans as part of clinical trails and drugs effectiveness.. It's how and why they made the drug, economics, to sell it and make money.

Of course its about money, it always is, but it also always is about politics... Both equate to power. Its really about that.

When I mean politics I do not mean favoring one nations rider over another... The riders are mere tools and pawns. Just look at FIFA for example.

 

[Unchained]

Why are F1, pro golfers and tennis players not catching heat like Tadej Pogacar? Many elite talents. The difference between other athletes is people managing the sports know what they are doing, cycling does not. Tennis is happening all year all over the world.. Golf is the same, athletes from all over the world, competing all over the world, different organizations for production and promotional reasons.. Exactly like cycling, identical, Giro does promote TDF, TDF doesn't promote Vuelta, Giro and so on. Golf and Tennis identical to bike racing, different athletes at different events, different countries. Why are those sports making hundreds of times more money than bike racing, racers? Why are those sports not mired in public outrage? Many of the answers might not be easy or obvious, but cycling needs to ask and get answers to everything. Cycling needs to ask itself why they don't want money, cycling has to ask why they don't want salaries, budgets and prize money similar. The first thing that would happen if pro cycling hired someone from professional golf or tennis.. Those people who ask day one, why would anyone do it this way. It's maybe an insult but maybe a complete do over , cycling infrastructure does more things wrong than right.

 

[Unchained]

Of course its about money, it always is, but it also always is about politics... Both equate to power. Its really about that.

When I mean politics I do not mean favoring one nations rider over another... The riders are mere tools and pawns. Just look at FIFA for example.

I understand your position.. And FIFA is another great example or Olympic committee.. I don't see the importance personally with all the renaming. Money is at the root of most things. I am willing to interchange money and power for the sake of the back and forth. Cycling just doesn't know what it's doing.

View: https://m.youtube.com/shorts/LwGgXsfWtpo

 

[aphronesis]

It’s not inconceivable, but fairly nonexistent on detail as to how this organized ownership would take form across events and countries without a stabilized revenue stream.

And the post 70s business model it works from is not wholly embraced these days (the promo goodies at the front of the desk are a nice touch though.) No doubt the UCI is defunct on various levels, but this isn’t offering a distinct way forward.

 

[Abedfo]

That's Flanders and Roubaix ruined again then.

 

[aphronesis]

Yes, but you can buy some electrolytes and gels to enhance the view.

 

[HashRouge]

That's Flanders and Roubaix ruined again then.

Did I dream the bit where he didn't win Roubaix?

 

[Abedfo]

Did I dream the bit where he didn't win Roubaix?

He's obviously got something devious planned to overcome MVDP. Maybe the bikes motor has a couple more watts in it this year, he won't need to crash then.

 

[Gianetti_Is_The_Goat]

Next year will be even more fun with extremely talented phenomenon Del Toro who won nothing until he got in touch with UAE. Generational talent.

 

[peterfin]

Next year will be even more fun with extremely talented phenomenon Del Toro who won nothing until he got in touch with UAE. Generational talent.

Del Toro is honest and recently said that he doesn't consider himself a huge talent. I wonder what he says when they can upgrade him a bit to 'generational talent' level?

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Del Toro is honest and recently said that he doesn't consider himself a huge talent. I wonder what he says when they can upgrade him a bit to 'generational talent' level?

A lot of work plus porridge do wonders.

 

[SHAD0W93]

A lot of work plus porridge do wonders.

Protein porridge