Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[SorelyBoy]

Florian Senechal talks about the recent Flanders race -
https://cyclinguptodate.com/cycling...-stunned-by-world-champions-speed-in-flanders
(original article in French at https://www.eurosport.fr/cyclisme/t...e-navais-jamais-vu-ca_vid60067207/video.shtml )

Two references to motorbikes in the same quote. He knows what he’s doing, no doubt. He isn’t even being subtle.

 

[noob]

Two references to motorbikes in the same quote. He knows what he’s doing, no doubt. He isn’t even being subtle.

Honestly I'm not sure he's knowingly hints at motors, but the fact that he did it twice makes it a bit more likely.

 

[Rechtschreibfehler]

Two references to motorbikes in the same quote. He knows what he’s doing, no doubt. He isn’t even being subtle.

Or he simply references his initial impression twice. He mistook him for a Motorbike, so that is what he compares him to. Maybe simply because as a rider, you are only used to being overtaken by a Motorbike in a situation when you and others are going all out. This needn't be a motor doping reference at all, but it of course appears as one when looks with the expectation to find such references, just like a fast moving object might appear to be a motorbike to a rider.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

Honestly I'm not sure he's knowingly hints at motors, but the fact that he did it twice makes it a bit more likely.

Things can also sound very different in writing than when they are spoken. Sénéchal is clearly no longer at the level he once was, but he did have a leader who was able to follow the so called motorbike, so Pogačar wasn't riding faster than what other people were able to do before later in the race.

I will not rule out motors, by the way, but people seem to be grasping at even the shortest straws, despite the fact that the traditional forms of doping still sound like way more plausible explanations.

 

[SorelyBoy]

Things can also sound very different in writing than when they are spoken. Sénéchal is clearly no longer at the level he once was, but he did have a leader who was able to follow the so called motorbike, so Pogačar wasn't riding faster than what other people were able to do before later in the race.

I will not rule out motors, by the way, but people seem to be grasping at even the shortest straws, despite the fact that the traditional forms of doping still sound like way more plausible explanations.

Read it again and it’s even more telling. He deliberately contextualises his observations. First of all he tells us that the peloton is going flat out, fast. Then he references two top strong riders in Laporte and Remco. And he says they’re riding very well but not moving up, not advancing, again to emphasise the speed of the peloton. Then he says Pogacar comes past everyone, the peloton, like he is on a motorbike. It’s so startling that Senechal says he was about to shout at the rider for such dangerous riding. But that’s not all. He gives crucial additional information by saying that Pogacar was riding in the wind. In other words, not that Pogacar was merely slaloming through a fast moving peloton, which would be impressive enough, rather he was riding on the outside and past them like they weren’t moving without any aero protection, into the wind. Senechal is deliberately and evocatively describing what he saw in order to communicate and elucidate the extraordinary nature of it, while twice dropping in comparisons to someone riding past on a motorbike.

 

[E_F_]

Read it again and it’s even more telling. He deliberately contextualises his observations. First of all he tells us that the peloton is going flat out, fast. Then he references two top strong riders in Laporte and Remco. And he says they’re riding very well but not moving up, not advancing, again to emphasise the speed of the peloton. Then he says Pogacar comes past everyone, the peloton, like he is on a motorbike. It’s so startling that Senechal says he was about to shout at the rider for such dangerous riding. But that’s not all. He gives crucial additional information by saying that Pogacar was riding in the wind. In other words, not that Pogacar was merely slaloming through a fast moving peloton, which would be impressive enough, rather he was riding on the outside and past them like they weren’t moving without any aero protection, into the wind. Senechal is deliberately and evocatively describing what he saw in order to communicate and elucidate the extraordinary nature of it, while twice dropping in comparisons to someone riding past on a motorbike.

Yes, I certainly read the statement as a description of an extraordinary experience. And as such I find it to be evidence of something being very off with Pogacar. Even though I personally think he probably didn't intend to insinuate motor doping.

 

[hrotha]

I think riders aren't making clever allusions to motors in front of the media, I think motorbikes have always been used as the obvious go-to hyperbole for riders who go really fast on a bike for literally any reason

 

[SorelyBoy]

I think riders aren't making clever allusions to motors in front of the media, I think motorbikes have always been used as the obvious go-to hyperbole for riders who go really fast on a bike for literally any reason

I think you’re missing quite a bit of what he’s saying. He just didn’t casually say Pogacar went past everyone like he was on a motorcycle. No. He deliberately and vividly paints the scenario in order to emphasise how extraordinary it was. How dramatic and strange. It’s not an off the cuff remark, but something said with thought and intent.

 

[hrotha]

I think you’re missing quite a bit of what he’s saying. He just didn’t casually say Pogacar went past everyone like he was on a motorcycle. No. He deliberately and vividly paints the scenario in order to emphasise how extraordinary it was. How dramatic and strange. It’s not an off the cuff remark, but something said with thought and intent.

I get it alright. All that embellishment amounts to "no seriously, he was going REAL fast"

Unless Pogačar was making vroom vroom noises with his mouth

 

[ashhutch1997]

I get it alright. All that embellishment amounts to "no seriously, he was going REAL fast"

Unless Pogačar was making vroom vroom noises with his mouth

He was probably fresh enough to make vroom vroom sounds tbf.

 

[SorelyBoy]

I get it alright. All that embellishment amounts to "no seriously, he was going REAL fast"

Unless Pogačar was making vroom vroom noises with his mouth

Yeah, so fast he must have been riding a motorbike. Not like he was, but that he actually was.

 

[Divergence]

But why is it in your opinion that the eye test it what counts? Like what are the upshots, or what, in your opinion? Or am I misunderstanding you?

I do not think the eye test should be reason enough for someone to believe in motodoping. It can be a pointer to look into something, but not more than that. What I was saying is that many people stop at just the eye test and immediately jump to the conclusion that he must be motodoping. I am suggesting that a much better approach is to analyze the eye test evidence mathematically (informed by physics) and only then to conclude A or B. Only then would you have something to back up your conclusions.
TLDR the eye test seems to be the only thing what the motodoping accusers are pointing to. There is no upshot to it.

I'll make one right now: You catergorically cannot rule it out.

Hmm, is is quite strange that this is the threshold for suspicion you are proposing. There are very few things one can completely rule out. For instance, one cannot rule out that the general theory of relativity or QED is wrong, but we still rely on them for all our predictions, Similarly, you cannot rule out that anyone in any race is riding a motorized bike (by your standard), so should we be saying everybody I motodoping?
My point is that there has not been any reasonable proof that Pog is motodoping. All the instances where he accelerates away form the competition are perfectly within human capability. A very capable human, but a human nonetheless.

 

[topcat]

I'm not ruling in motors and I'm not ruling them out.

 

[piada especial]

https://www.cyclingweekly.com/racin...ng-is-beyond-demotivating-says-classics-rival

some interesting quotes...

Oliver Naesen: "What Tadej does actually goes a step further than being demotivating...Demotivating would be a rider who is very good – you can’t drop him and he beats you in the sprint," he elaborated. But Pogačar's ability "takes away all hope; the difference is simply that big."

"We used to sometimes talk about a peloton at two speeds; now there are three," Naesen said, adding: “He is a 10-star rider whom even they [Van der Poel and Van Aert] can’t even dream of keeping up with if the course is a bit tougher."

Greg Van Avermaet: “Where does he get his physiological advantage?" Van Avermaet said. "They really need to examine that boy thoroughly to see what makes him put together so well.”

 

[AlpRaid]

here he is in 2022 unable to drop the entire peloton (despite winning Montreal before and Lombardia after). He was in great shape, but he was human.

And in 2021, he was dropped on a hill by Colbrelli and Remco (who was still recovering from Lombardia crash and not his best)

so wtf happened?

This is Berzin, Chiapucci, Armstrong-type transformation.

 

[meat puppet]

Oh, his entourage and cycling media has been kind enough to inform us many times over: he finally started eating and training properly.

At the top the margins are extremely small even when they are huge, so attention to every detail matters.

 

[BubbaChuck]

How its possible that pogacar competes with fat legs,lmaoo.Look at the photo above.

 

[TheKidsCallMeBoss]

here he is in 2022 unable to drop the entire peloton (despite winning Montreal before and Lombardia after). He was in great shape, but he was human.

And in 2021, he was dropped on a hill by Colbrelli and Remco (who was still recovering from Lombardia crash and not his best)

so wtf happened?

This is Berzin, Chiapucci, Armstrong-type transformation.

A weak national team that can't control the race and is unable to make it difficult. Buddy, road bike racing is a bit more complex than you think.

 

[Rob5091]

here he is in 2022 unable to drop the entire peloton (despite winning Montreal before and Lombardia after). He was in great shape, but he was human.

And in 2021, he was dropped on a hill by Colbrelli and Remco (who was still recovering from Lombardia crash and not his best)

so wtf happened?

This is Berzin, Chiapucci, Armstrong-type transformation.

Colbrelli was so juiced up he nearly died.

 

[MountainGoatW]

How its possible that pogacar competes with fat legs,lmaoo.Look at the photo above.

He still actually doesnt have the build of a top endurance athlete, but somehow finds never ever before seen power. Makes you wonder.

 

[MountainGoatW]

Hi, a long time reader and a fan of the sport since the 90s here.

Let me start by saying, that things have gotten out of hands again, like many times before in our beloved sport. This time though it is worse than ever before. One guy managed by Gianetti, Matxin&Co with UAE money and UCI in the pocket, is doing things that even Merckx, who was racing mostly against amateurs, couldn't do. It just smells next level cheating so much, that it makes me sick.

Most of the Poggies wonders things have been said here before i think, but my eyebrows got raised at PDBF knowing the teams backround. Everything was still "ok" until the mythical rise in power on the winter of 23/24, after getting beaten up by another juiced mutant. Since that winter it has just been the worst i have ever witnessed in any sports. Basically Poggie is semitalent, turned to a once in a lifetime alien ever since he hooked up with the biggest cheaters of the sport, now with proper funding and image building/control.

 

[MountainGoatW]

Here are couple of explanations/opinions that I found interesting.

Greg Van Avermaet, former 2016 Olympic champion, with a 2017 Paris-Roubaix among his 42 victories, on Pogacar who doesn't look like much physically, not muscular: "Where does he get his physiological advantage from? They really should examine this guy to understand what makes him so well-built. VO2 max is measurable, but the difference won't be that great compared to the others. How does his body react to effort? And how does he recover? Because in reality, he rides two kilometers per hour too fast. His ability to recover and keep riding, it's
unprecedented," he continues.

"In jest I said to my wife: 'If we put Pogi and me side by side in our underwear and ask someone who doesn't follow cycling which of the two crushes the competition, you'd still say me. I look way more athletic. No one would say it's this little guy,"

https://twitter.com/x/status/2036722736718832000

View: https://x.com/i/status/2036722736718832000

https://twitter.com/x/status/2035760301899956395

View: https://x.com/i/status/2035760301899956395


The last one i found the most intresting. I am pretty convinced it is close to the truth, they have some really top notch genetic doping on top of the traditional juice. Never getting tired, no physical limits, dropping everyone at will whenever needed and on all kinds of terrain. Particularly telling is his reaction to serious crashes, his body is not reacting to trauma in a natural way.

I am not the biggest fan of the motordoping theory, but seeing the endless seated power burst, knowing the tech is possible and considering his riding a state owned Colnago, I can't rule it out either. I also have zero trust that UCI would bring it out to the open even if they found something out.

P.S. If you don't speak french the translation option is quite accurate these days.

 

[Divergence]

Here are couple of explanations/opinions that I found interesting.

Greg Van Avermaet, former 2016 Olympic champion, with a 2017 Paris-Roubaix among his 42 victories, on Pogacar who doesn't look like much physically, not muscular: "Where does he get his physiological advantage from? They really should examine this guy to understand what makes him so well-built. VO2 max is measurable, but the difference won't be that great compared to the others. How does his body react to effort? And how does he recover? Because in reality, he rides two kilometers per hour too fast. His ability to recover and keep riding, it's
unprecedented," he continues.

"In jest I said to my wife: 'If we put Pogi and me side by side in our underwear and ask someone who doesn't follow cycling which of the two crushes the competition, you'd still say me. I look way more athletic. No one would say it's this little guy,"

https://twitter.com/x/status/2036722736718832000

View: https://x.com/i/status/2036722736718832000

https://twitter.com/x/status/2035760301899956395

View: https://x.com/i/status/2035760301899956395


The last one i found the most intresting. I am pretty convinced it is close to the truth, they have some really top notch genetic doping on top of the traditional juice. Never getting tired, no physical limits, dropping everyone at will whenever needed and on all kinds of terrain. Particularly telling is his reaction to serious crashes, his body is not reacting to trauma in a natural way.

I am not the biggest fan of the motordoping theory, but seeing the endless seated power burst, knowing the tech is possible and considering his riding a state owned Colnago, I can't rule it out either. I also have zero trust that UCI would bring it out to the open even if they found something out.

P.S. If you don't speak french the translation option is quite accurate these days.

As I was writing earlier. All eye test stuff.
Would you care to put some numbers to your analysis? Like, e.g., maybe model the power needed for those seated attacks, or maybe try to calculate the length of his tibia and compare against a test group (or maybe even propose a physical model why having his tibia length would not allow for him to be a good cyclist). Also, if he really is physically so impotent why on earth would UAE choose him as the guy to make a monster out of?
I will add one more thing that many people forget. The mental strength is very important in cycling and Pog seems to have ample of it.