Tailwind Sport 2005

[BotanyBay]

I take it all back. When Floyd pays back all the money he took fradulently in his defense fund,(including the $25 he got from me for Positivly False), goes to trial in France for hacking the French doping agency, reveals which races he cheated in and returns the prize money and apologizes to the competitors and organizers of the events he cheated in, yes like Greg LeMond I will say, "I forgive Floyd."

Until then Floyd is, well, Floyd.

Consider the LAF to be a bigger fraud than the FFF.

I never said you had to forgive him. But that does not mean that he can't ever be a useful resource in prosecuting Lance.

Would your opinion be any different if it were George H or Kevin Livingston doing the accusations?

 

[flicker]

So if Lance were to turn around and admit he's been a doper for 20 years, by your logic, you'd not be allowed to believe it. Once a liar, always a liar.

I've lied before. So have you. Are people never to believe you ever again?

I think sir the conclusions on Lance in the clinic are self-evident.

I have never been a fan boy of Lance. Lance has done a lot for cycling and his organization does good. I do not fawn upon Lances every word.

I do however like Lances' style. Tar and feather me if you like. I have a laRGE FRONTAL AREA.

 

[Polish]

You might want to put in that Lance 'allegedly' was granted equity or will upset some because it is in direct conflict with Bill Stapleton who said Lance had 11.5% ownership of Tailwind during his testimony at the SCA case.

Yes, in hindsight, 2010 Lance knew he did NOT have equity in Taiwind back in the USPS days. Was technically granted equity shares after he retired in 2005

But 2003 Lance thought he had some equity shares. He did not lie when he said he thought he did during SCA. Lance never went to board meetings, he was not a board member. But he believed Stapleton when Stapleton said he had an equity share. Turns out in hindsight he was just a rider lol.

Lance did not lie in 2010 to Macur nor lie in 2003 during SCA.

 

[Galmozzi]

I like your quotations Dave. Ayn Rand is epic. Still Floyd is Floyd, we can't get around that. How exactly did Floyd gain the confidences of slimeball Ball. I put that judgement on Ball, but Ball is not stupid. Did you ever think how Floyd gained the confidence of Ball?

At the end of the day I would believe most barristers would consider Floyd a liar. At best Floyd manipulates the truth as it suits him, for Floyds' own purposes.

No doubt Floyd has earned his crediblity problem but your alternative is to not beleive him when he admits to having lied in the past regarding his own doping and that of his teammates. The fact that he came clean with the truth starts to rebuild his cred rather than further diminish it.

His story now reflects reality rather than the silly excuses he and other dopers have clung to when trying to explain away their positive.

 

[BroDeal]

...but Ball is not stupid.

Whatever gave you that idea? When the dust settles, Ball will be sitting in prison, perhaps the only one aside from Papp. (Sorry, Joe.) It will be purely the result of his own ego. There was no need for him to get involved with his riders' preparation. He could have done what everyone else in his position does: Hire people who will do what you know they will do, look the other way, and pretend that you are shocked and stupid if someone is caught. Instead he dressed in black, threw a lot of money around., flashed the bling, and pretended he was John Gotti. He reveled in the experience of being a pretend gangster. Meanwhile, his legitimate business swirled around the bowl as he spent time and money fantasizing about setting up fashion's answer to the bike business. Sorry, Ball, there is already one Rapha too many in this biz and people behind Rapha were smart enough to base their company on soft goods instead of entire bikes.

 

[BotanyBay]

I think we're starting to learn that Floyd was never going to be the star witness, but he's going to turn out to have been one HELL of an evidence collector.

Lance can talk all he wants about liking his own credibility better than Floyd's. But it won't be Floyd's credibility that he'll be facing in court. Floyd's just a legal domestique in this case. He instigated conversations and ferried recording equipment.

 

[D-Queued]

No doubt Floyd has earned his crediblity problem but your alternative is to not beleive him when he admits to having lied in the past regarding his own doping and that of his teammates. The fact that he came clean with the truth starts to rebuild his cred rather than further diminish it.

His story now reflects reality rather than the silly excuses he and other dopers have clung to when trying to explain away their positive.

And it is completely implausible that he doped alone.

Then, logic dictates, you must look at the teammates with the biggest success and start there.

Dave.

 

[Siriuscat]

I take it all back. When Floyd pays back all the money he took fradulently in his defense fund,(including the $25 he got from me for Positivly False), goes to trial in France for hacking the French doping agency, reveals which races he cheated in and returns the prize money and apologizes to the competitors and organizers of the events he cheated in, yes like Greg LeMond I will say, "I forgive Floyd."

Until then Floyd is, well, Floyd.

I take it all back. When Lance pays back all the money he took fradulently from investors, charity donations etc etc (including the £60 or so I spent buying his sodding books), goes to trial in France for doping durng the 99 tour that has been proved (remember it's a criminal offence in France), Pays back EVERY PENNY he's taken in Prize Money for EVERY race, apologizes to the competitors and organizers of the events he cheated in, Come out and say that Floyd didn't lie and that Greg is a nice guy, apologise for the Trek thing and all the BS over the years, apologise to Fillipo Simeoni and every other career he's killed over the years, apologise to Floyd, apologise to every cancer sufferer who's bought into the lie and apologise to every bike racing fan you've lied to."

Until then Lance is, well, a lying, cheating, sociopath.

Fixed that for you.....

 

[MacRoadie]

I have a laRGE FRONTAL AREA.

I think it's the size of your frontal LOBE that most question...

 

[Granville57]

Should we give more credence to Floyd(once was a great rider, former TdF winner)Landis, Tyler(Born twin)Hamilton, or Micheal(Rocks' here to stay)Ball.

Truly have you ever believed anything(IMO) positivly lies these three have ever said?

Interesting comprehension. Where did I mention Tyler or Ball?
If you're asking which of the three, then clearly, Floyd.

The latter two have never reversed their respective positions.

My point exactly.

And shame on you for not paying attention to the obvious and trying to pervert an honest statement.

Floyd lied. Yes. Then he came clean on the lie.

Those two statements are contradictory. You cannot claim he is always a liar as this proves otherwise. At this point it is more likely that a pattern of truth has emerged - notably because it fits with the facts.

Yup.

Again, to my original point:
Floyd raised the question of the the apparent lack of bikes at USPS long before any of these other issues became...issues.

 

[thehog]

Yes, in hindsight, 2010 Lance knew he did NOT have equity in Taiwind back in the USPS days. Was technically granted equity shares after he retired in 2005

But 2003 Lance thought he had some equity shares. He did not lie when he said he thought he did during SCA. Lance never went to board meetings, he was not a board member. But he believed Stapleton when Stapleton said he had an equity share. Turns out in hindsight he was just a rider lol.

Lance did not lie in 2010 to Macur nor lie in 2003 during SCA.

Your getting way too technical. Setting up a sports management company to take care of of the sponsorship monies is fairly straight forward. You pay the riders, the mechanics, the chef and the the travel. There's nothing too smart going on in normal circumstances. You don't have a problem if you're an equity stake owner or not. Its just an interface from the funds from the sponsor to paying for the various services.... simple.


Unless of course its a front for so much more....

like... garnishing money from investors...

or..... acting as a interchange from bikes sold to dope purchasing...

then it becomes much more serious and then you want to step away from being the part owner...

at least in the Festina scandal the riders pooled and paid for their own dope..

In this doping model there's an obvious attempt to keep the drugs and money at arms length...

If it really was just TailWind the simple sports management company paying the riders then Lance would have no trouble in admitting his involvement. He may even celebrate the fact that the riders were paid - looked after like Alberto never would. But because its so much more and more than he wants to recollect there's the brain fade and the "i don't want anything to do with it" type statements...

Why wouldn't he want to more than just a rider? Why is anyone who every had any involvement with that company wanting to wash their collective hands of it?

 

[BotanyBay]

Yes, in hindsight, 2010 Lance knew he did NOT have equity in Taiwind back in the USPS days. Was technically granted equity shares after he retired in 2005

But 2003 Lance thought he had some equity shares. He did not lie when he said he thought he did during SCA. Lance never went to board meetings, he was not a board member. But he believed Stapleton when Stapleton said he had an equity share. Turns out in hindsight he was just a rider lol.

Lance did not lie in 2010 to Macur nor lie in 2003 during SCA.

I do finally understand your true role in this now. You're the guy that's here to do whatever he can to distort perceptions about historical events, conversations, data, whatever. Even the slightest seed of non-truth can prove helpful to your team's cause. You're here to get us off of the topics that your legal team doesn't want the investigators to even think about. Because they follow mostly current data and witness accounts. When one of us talks about a case or situation from several years ago, you intentionally regurgitate it in a slightly different way, in a mild attempt at distortion. Some call you a pot-stirrer, but I think you're here as an obfuscation technician. To keep people away from the curtains. To talk as if the curtains were actually on the other end of the room and to subtly get people believing that. Subtle but perhaps effective.

I'm going to purposefully cease to engage you, and I'll ask others to do the same. Any new posts you make, I hope people will ignore.

 

[flicker]

Whatever gave you that idea? When the dust settles, Ball will be sitting in prison, perhaps the only one aside from Papp. (Sorry, Joe.) It will be purely the result of his own ego. There was no need for him to get involved with his riders' preparation. He could have done what everyone else in his position does: Hire people who will do what you know they will do, look the other way, and pretend that you are shocked and stupid if someone is caught. Instead he dressed in black, threw a lot of money around., flashed the bling, and pretended he was John Gotti. He reveled in the experience of being a pretend gangster. Meanwhile, his legitimate business swirled around the bowl as he spent time and money fantasizing about setting up fashion's answer to the bike business. Sorry, Ball, there is already one Rapha too many in this biz and people behind Rapha were smart enough to base their company on soft goods instead of entire bikes.

Ball must have had a pretty good line to attract his investors or earn legitimatly his former empire. Or did he inherit his fortune, was he a trust funder? That is what I meant, he must have had something going for himself to attract the $$$$$$$.

Was Balls' attraction to Floyd ,Floyds' bad boy image?

 

[flicker]

I take it all back. When Lance pays back all the money he took fradulently from investors, charity donations etc etc (including the £60 or so I spent buying his sodding books), goes to trial in France for doping durng the 99 tour that has been proved (remember it's a criminal offence in France), Pays back EVERY PENNY he's taken in Prize Money for EVERY race, apologizes to the competitors and organizers of the events he cheated in, Come out and say that Floyd didn't lie and that Greg is a nice guy, apologise for the Trek thing and all the BS over the years, apologise to Fillipo Simeoni and every other career he's killed over the years, apologise to Floyd, apologise to every cancer sufferer who's bought into the lie and apologise to every bike racing fan you've lied to."

Until then Lance is, well, a lying, cheating, sociopath.

Fixed that for you.....

It will be a cold day in Hades' when Lance admits anything. Do you think Floyd and Lance have that in common?

 

[BotanyBay]

It will be a cold day in Hades' when Lance admits anything. Do you think Floyd and Lance have that in common?

No, I think Lance will go down with his ship as Eric Cartman famously did in the Casa Bonita case.

It's the least manly thing he can do, but then again, he's a coward.

 

[Granville57]

I take it all back. When Floyd pays back all the money he took fradulently in his defense fund,(including the $25 he got from me for Positivly False), goes to trial in France for hacking the French doping agency, reveals which races he cheated in and returns the prize money and apologizes to the competitors and organizers of the events he cheated in, yes like Greg LeMond I will say, "I forgive Floyd."

Until then Floyd is, well, Floyd.

"reveals which races he cheated in"
I think he did reveal that—all of them.

"returns the prize money"
I'll give you that one. It raises an interesting point: Are any race organizers asking for their money back (not a rhetorical question, btw)? Because if they're not, then C'est la vie, I suppose.

But here's what I don't get: Many people want to take the stand that everything Flandis says is a lie. Everything.
OK, he's lying now. He never doped. Ever.
Ladies and gentleman, your 2006 TdF winner...

 

[BotanyBay]

"reveals which races he cheated in"
I think he did that—all of them.

"returns the prize money"
I'll give you that one. It raises an interesting point: Are any race organizers asking for their money back (not a rhetorical question, btw)? Because if they're not, then C'est la vie, I suppose.

But here's what I don't get: Many people want to take the stand that everything Flandis says is a lie. Everything.
OK, he's lying now. He never doped. Ever.
Ladies and gentleman, your 2006 TdF winner...

I don't believe he was a newbie to doping when he approached Johan. I think he just wanted Johan & Co to put him on an internally funded program so he could finally bank a few bucks.

 

[flicker]

"reveals which races he cheated in"
I think he did that—all of them.

"returns the prize money"
I'll give you that one. It raises an interesting point: Are any race organizers asking for their money back (not a rhetorical question, btw)? Because if they're not, then C'est la vie, I suppose.

But here's what I don't get: Many people want to take the stand that everything Flandis says is a lie. Everything.
OK, he's lying now. He never doped. Ever.
Ladies and gentleman, your 2006 TdF winner...

If Floyd won the TdF 2006 it would have been epic. What a great ride stage 17 was, the best I have ever seen. I am wondering who Floyd angered to become relegated. i am sure most everyone in the top 20 were also juicing. In my opinion Floyd was robbed.

I feel very sorry for Floyd. He lost his Father in law, his wife, his step-daughter a lot of time and his fortune. Just doing his job, with the same "Edge" as everyone else.

So IMO Floyd sill is the 06 TdF winner. With a dying hip joint to boot. Quite an accomplishment against his fellow doper competitors.

 

[BroDeal]

If Floyd won the TdF 2006 it would have been epic.

He did win the 2006 TdF. FLandis' win is every bit as legitimate as Armstrong, Pantani, Ullrich, Riis, and Indurain's.

 

[Polish]

Why wouldn't he want to more than just a rider?

That is the important question, as you have already pointed out earlier in this thread.

And I agree with the answer you gave...."we will see, we will see".

 

[Granville57]

He did win the 2006 TdF. FLandis' win is every bit as legitimate as Armstrong, Pantani, Ullrich, Riis, and Indurain's.

I'm also guessing that Kloden isn't all that disappointed that he ended up in third, thereby keeping himself safely away from "inheriting" the title as Pereiro did. Too many questions to answer.

 

[thehog]

That is the important question, as you have already pointed out earlier in this thread.

And I agree with the answer you gave...."we will see, we will see".

I love how you read my posts. Remember them. Recount them. Fantasise about them. Cherish them.

 

[skidmark]

I do finally understand your true role in this now. You're the guy that's here to do whatever he can to distort perceptions about historical events, conversations, data, whatever. Even the slightest seed of non-truth can prove helpful to your team's cause. You're here to get us off of the topics that your legal team doesn't want the investigators to even think about. Because they follow mostly current data and witness accounts. When one of us talks about a case or situation from several years ago, you intentionally regurgitate it in a slightly different way, in a mild attempt at distortion. Some call you a pot-stirrer, but I think you're here as an obfuscation technician. To keep people away from the curtains. To talk as if the curtains were actually on the other end of the room and to subtly get people believing that. Subtle but perhaps effective.

I'm going to purposefully cease to engage you, and I'll ask others to do the same. Any new posts you make, I hope people will ignore.

+1 Polish, I generally have some appreciation for the way you tweak people's noses and add a bit of contrarian levity when people get all serious about stuff, but in this thread, you don't have a leg to stand on. The whole thread is about the fact that he was a board member, in fact there's a scan of a document proving this, and therefore he was responsible, by virtue of holding that position, of management decisions that the company made. It doesn't matter if he went to meetings or not, it's analogous to the idea of doping - just like a rider has to be responsible for what's ingested into his/her body, and ignorance is no excuse, a director has to be responsible for what's decided by his/her company, and ignorance is no excuse.

So quit being purposefully obtuse, you're just embarrassing yourself.

 

[Merckx index]

Or, to quote Ayn Rand:

“Contradictions do not exist. Whenever you think you are facing a contradiction, check your premises. You will find that one of them is wrong.”

Dave.

This from a contemporary of Godel and Schrodinger, no less. Rand's philosophy, like her personal life, was riddled with contradictions.

I feel very sorry for Floyd. He lost his Father in law, his wife, his step-daughter a lot of time and his fortune. Just doing his job, with the same "Edge" as everyone else.

So IMO Floyd sill is the 06 TdF winner. With a dying hip joint to boot. Quite an accomplishment against his fellow doper competitors.

Best statement I've seen you post here, Flick.

 

[Anonymous]

Lance has only made one public comment on any issue to do with investigation (except to say it hasn't bothered him) since California in May and that was to try and distance himself from Tailwind as it was through Tailwind that the 'dope for USPS Treks' scheme was run.

If we can uncover the lie on a forum what do you think the Feds can find?

Which is why its also great that Bruyneels name is on that document. Lance being out of cycling, doesnt change cycling as long as leeches like Bruyneel are around to carry on peddling their wares on the next generation of riders.

Obviously we knew Johann had recent ownership in disco/astana/radioshack even if it was just through his holding of the pt licence, but interesting to see it goes back so far.