Does anyone know of a list of the top 10 TDF finishers over, say, the last 15 years, showing which ones are known to be dopers?
Would be a good project if it has not been done yet.
Would be a good project if it has not been done yet.
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Thanks!
With all due respect, that is the most stupid list that I have seen. That makes the criteria worthless.Carlo Algatrensig said:http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=9900
While I wouldnt agree with the list that he came up with its sort of covered in this thread about an article by Bill Strickland
Ninety5rpm said:Does anyone know of a list of the top 10 TDF finishers over, say, the last 15 years, showing which ones are known to be dopers?
Would be a good project if it has not been done yet.
flicker said:Riis and Pantani, only ones I knoe who would dare.
on3m@n@rmy said:BTW, we can't forget Landis in 2006 now can we!
Here's my list... the red names are who I know of caught doping or were banned at some point in their career but not necessarily in the year listed. Pinks are possibles, and I'm an LA fan... so far.
1995 TDF top ten
1. Miguel Indurain
2. Alex Zulle
3. Bjarne Riis
4. Laurent Jalabert
5. Ivan Gotti
6. Melchor Mauri
7. Fernando Escartin
8. Tony Rominger
9. Richard Virenque
10. Hernan Buenahora
1996 TDF top ten
1. Bjarne Riis
2. Jan Ullrich (maybe)
3. Richard Virenque
4. Laurent Dufaux
5. Peter Luttenberger
6. Luc Leblanc
7. Piotr Ugrumov
8. Fernando Escartin
9. Abraham Olano
10. Tony Rominger
1997 TDF top ten
1. Jan Ullrich (maybe)
2. Richard Virenque
3. Marco Pantani
4. Abraham Olano
5. Fernando Escartin
6. Francesco Casagrande
7. Bjarne Riis
8. Jose Maria Jimenez
9. Laurent Dufaux
10. Roberto Conti
1998 TDF top ten
1. Marco Pantani
2. Jan Ullrich (maybe)
3. Bobby Julich
4. Christophe Rinero
5. Michael Boogerd
6. Jean-Cyril Robin
7. Roland Meier
8. Daniele Nardello
9. Giuseppe Di Grande
10. Axel Merckx
1999 TDF top ten
1. Lance Armstrong (maybe)
2. Alex Zuelle
3. Fernando Escartin
4. Laurent Dufaux
5. Angel Casero
6. Abraham Olano
7. Daniele Nardello
8. Richard Virenque
9. Wladimir Belli
10. Andrea Peron
2000 TDF top ten
1. Lance Armstrong (maybe)
2. Jan Ullrich (maybe)
3. Joseba Beloki
4. Christophe Moreau
5. Roberto Heras
6. Richard Virenque
7. Santiago Botero
8. Fernando Escartin
9. Francisco Mancebo
10. Daniele Nardello
2001 TDF top ten
1. Lance Armstrong (maybe)
2. Jan Ullrich (maybe)
3. Joseba Beloki
4. Andrei Kivilev
5. Igor Gonzalez De Galdeano
6. Francois Simon
7. Oscar Sevilla
8. Santiago Botero
9. Marcos Serrano
10. Michael Boogerd
2002 TDF top ten
1. Lance Armstrong (maybe)
2. Joseba Beloki
3. Raimondas Rumsas
4. Santiago Botero
5. Igor Gonzalez Galdeano
6. Jose Azevedo
7. Francisco Mancebo
8. Levi Leipheimer
9. Roberto Heras
10. Carlos Sastre
2003 TDF top ten
1. Lance Armstrong (maybe)
2. Jan Ullrich (maybe)
3. Alexandre Vinokourov
4. Tyler Hamilton
5. Haimar Zubeldia
6. Iban Mayo
7. Ivan Basso
8. Christophe Moreau
9. Carlos Sastre
10. Francisco Mancebo
2004 TDF top ten
1. Lance Armstrong (maybe)
2. Andréas Klöden
3. Ivan Basso
4. Jan Ullrich (maybe)
5. José Azevedo
6. Francisco Mancebo
7. Georg Totschnig
8. Carlos Sastre
9. Levi Leipheimer
10. Oscar Pereiro
2005 TDF top ten
1. Lance Armstrong (maybe)
2. Ivan Basso
3. Jan Ullrich (maybe)
4. Francisco Mancebo
5. Alexandre Vinokourov
6. Levi Leipheimer
7. Mickael Rasmussen
8. Cadel Evans
9. Floyd Landis
10. Oscar Pereiro
2006 TDF top ten
1. Floyd, Floyd, Floyd...
I'm done... D U N... Done! Please add to, subtract, correct or whatever as you see fit.
Wel put. It is a pointless exercise.Hugh Januss said:...
Anyway the 1 million dollar question becomes, knowing what we know about the advantage gained from modern doping programs who really believes that there are these few supermen out there who, while they might have not won, were still so talented that they were right up there in the running with the dopers. Personally I am very skeptical.
on3m@n@rmy said:I think 95rpm means the top 10 finishers in each year for the last 15 years (that's 150 guys), which would be a hell of a lot bigger project than the winner over the past 15 years. Which did you mean 95?
on3m@n@rmy said:got my second wind for 1995-1998 above^
Hugh Januss said:This whole thing becomes a pointless argument if we just stop and think about the writing that is out there with regard to the advantage that is there for an individual who is "properly prepared". When the 50% rule was in effect the advantage lay with guys who had naturally low Crit levels (like Lance) because they had the most to gain. As the EPO test got better and the 50% rule came into effect the focus changed to recovery, both during races with transfusions and test. and during training with micro dosing EPO, HGH and other recovery drugs. The idea became to disappear to a training camp somewhere and train harder than you would ever race, but with a system of recovery drugs that would keep you from breaking down. Racing year round was a dead end street. Does that plan sound at all familiar?
Anyway the 1 million dollar question becomes, knowing what we know about the advantage gained from modern doping programs who really believes that there are these few supermen out there who, while they might have not won, were still so talented that they were right up there in the running with the dopers. Personally I am very skeptical.
Yeah, because he is so clean.Waterloo Sunrise said:That list is missing Levi.
Escarabajo said:Ok. This is my crazy list. This is the Criteria used:
Anything related with doping and is out. Even if it is strong gossip (works with Ferrari), issues that has not been processed by the UCI (Frank Schleck money to Fuentes, Armstrong positives, Kloden transfusion visits, Human Plasma visitors, Puerto Nicknames, etc).
I usually stopped when I heard nothing of the rider. There are no warranties that he was cleanish but I have nothing:
1999
10- Andrea Peron (?)
17- Kurt Van de Wouwer
18- David Etxebarria
2000
16- Roberto Conti (?)
17- Kurt Van de Wouwer
18- Guido Trentin
2001
6- Andrei Kivilev (?)
7- Francois Simon
12- Iñigo Chaurreau
2002
10 Carlos Sastre
13- David Moncoutie
14- Massimiliano Lelli (?)
15- Stephen Goubert
2003
9- Carlos Sastre
13- Peter Luttember
15- Massimiliano Lelli (?)
18- Roberto Laiseka
2004
8- Carlos Sastre
13- Vladimir Karpets
16- Sandy Casar
2005
8- Cadel Evans
20- Giussepe Guerini
21- Carlos Sastre
2006
4- Carlos Sastre
5- Cadel Evans
7- Cyril Dessel
2007
2- Cadel Evans
4- Carlos Sastre
7- Kim Kirchen
2008
1- Carlos Sastre
2- Cadel Evans
5- Christian Vandevelde
2009
2- Andy Schleck
4- Bradley Wiggins
8- Christian Vandevelde
2010
2- Andy Schleck
4- Samuel Sanchez
5- Jurgen Van den Broek
If you feel that a rider should be out please do tell the doping offense.
Note: By the way, there is no way I can make a list for ten riders. I could probably get to the Lanterne Rouge
Escarabajo said:Ok. This is my crazy list. This is the Criteria used:
Anything related with doping and is out. Even if it is strong gossip (works with Ferrari), issues that has not been processed by the UCI (Frank Schleck money to Fuentes, Armstrong positives, Kloden transfusion visits, Human Plasma visitors, Puerto Nicknames, etc).
I usually stopped when I heard nothing of the rider. There are no warranties that he was cleanish but I have nothing:
1999
10- Andrea Peron (?)
17- Kurt Van de Wouwer
18- David Etxebarria
2000
16- Roberto Conti (?)
17- Kurt Van de Wouwer
18- Guido Trentin
2001
6- Andrei Kivilev (?)
7- Francois Simon
12- Iñigo Chaurreau
2002
10 Carlos Sastre
13- David Moncoutie
14- Massimiliano Lelli (?)
15- Stephen Goubert
2003
9- Carlos Sastre
13- Peter Luttember
15- Massimiliano Lelli (?)
18- Roberto Laiseka
2004
8- Carlos Sastre
13- Vladimir Karpets
16- Sandy Casar
2005
8- Cadel Evans
20- Giussepe Guerini
21- Carlos Sastre
2006
4- Carlos Sastre
5- Cadel Evans
7- Cyril Dessel
2007
2- Cadel Evans
4- Carlos Sastre
7- Kim Kirchen
2008
1- Carlos Sastre
2- Cadel Evans
5- Christian Vandevelde
2009
2- Andy Schleck
4- Bradley Wiggins
8- Christian Vandevelde
2010
2- Andy Schleck
4- Samuel Sanchez
5- Jurgen Van den Broek
If you feel that a rider should be out please do tell the doping offense.
Note: By the way, there is no way I can make a list for ten riders. I could probably get to the Lanterne Rouge
Benotti69 said:I agree, how could anyone make it into the top 20/30 without EPO, when people like Fignon were being passed by 30 mediocre guys on a mountain that he dropped them all on previously.....it is impossible to decide as a guy in the top 30 without EPO might have been 130th.....and the guy in 130th might not have finished a 3week GT without EPO....so better to wipe the slate clean and start again with new tests, new UCI, better blood tests, DNA sampling, longer bans etc...
Escarabajo said:2010
2- Andy Schleck
4- Samuel Sanchez
5- Jurgen Van den Broek
I have the same feeling as you do, but I have nothing on him other than his brother is making deals with Fuentes. FWIW, I have no idea what my brother is doing and we are working in the same Industry. We can not conclude anything from it. Note that on the latest tours we have less proof on the top riders. This could be an indication that we need a doping bust or police raid soon. That way we can start deducting whatever riders are left. Until then, that's how I see it.TeamSkyFans said:Andy Schleck? *s*******
Escarabajo said:2002
10 Carlos Sastre
13- David Moncoutie
14- Massimiliano Lelli (?)
15- Stephen Goubert
2003
9- Carlos Sastre
13- Peter Luttember
15- Massimiliano Lelli (?)
18- Roberto Laiseka
That's not enough proof. By using the same theory we would have to take Christophe Bassons out.Willy_Voet said:Sastre is out (he rode for Manolo Saiz, enough said)
Lelli is out (Cofidis affair)
I knew there was something related with Lelli but I was not sure. I guess that's why I had a contingency plan. Stephen Goubert and Roberto Laiseka move up as new podium candidates.Frosty said:Lelli was named by Millar and Gaumont as being a supplier in the Cofidis affair.
http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/summer04/cycling/news/story?id=1852059
Dont know if anything was proven though.