TDF Top 10 finishers for last 15 years - how many doped?

[Ninety5rpm]

Does anyone know of a list of the top 10 TDF finishers over, say, the last 15 years, showing which ones are known to be dopers?

Would be a good project if it has not been done yet.

 

[Carlo Algatrensig]

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=9900

While I wouldnt agree with the list that he came up with its sort of covered in this thread about an article by Bill Strickland

 

[Frosty]

This was published a few years ago.

http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/latest/346046/tour-de-france-1999-2008.html

http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/latest/346043/vuelta-a-espana-1998-2007.html

http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/latest/346045/giro-d-italia-1999-2008.html

 

[flicker]

Riis and Pantani, only ones I knoe who would dare.

 

[Escarabajo]

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=9900

While I wouldnt agree with the list that he came up with its sort of covered in this thread about an article by Bill Strickland

With all due respect, that is the most stupid list that I have seen. That makes the criteria worthless.

If any of these riders Armstrong, Fernando Escartin, Angel Casero and Andreas Kloden are clean I'll give away my house and something more.

What a joke.

 

[on3m@n@rmy]

Does anyone know of a list of the top 10 TDF finishers over, say, the last 15 years, showing which ones are known to be dopers?

Would be a good project if it has not been done yet.

Riis and Pantani, only ones I knoe who would dare.

I think 95rpm means the top 10 finishers in each year for the last 15 years (that's 150 guys), which would be a hell of a lot bigger project than the winner over the past 15 years. Which did you mean 95?

 

[on3m@n@rmy]

BTW, we can't forget Landis in 2006 now can we!

Here's my list... the red names are who I know of caught doping or were banned at some point in their career but not necessarily in the year listed. Pinks are possibles, and I'm an LA fan... so far.

1999 TDF top ten
1. Lance Armstrong (maybe)
2. Alex Zuelle
3. Fernando Escartin
4. Laurent Dufaux
5. Angel Casero
6. Abraham Olano
7. Daniele Nardello
8. Richard Virenque
9. Wladimir Belli
10. Andrea Peron

2000 TDF top ten
1. Lance Armstrong (maybe)
2. Jan Ullrich (maybe)
3. Joseba Beloki
4. Christophe Moreau
5. Roberto Heras
6. Richard Virenque
7. Santiago Botero
8. Fernando Escartin
9. Francisco Mancebo
10. Daniele Nardello

2001 TDF top ten
1. Lance Armstrong (maybe)
2. Jan Ullrich (maybe)
3. Joseba Beloki
4. Andrei Kivilev
5. Igor Gonzalez De Galdeano
6. Francois Simon
7. Oscar Sevilla
8. Santiago Botero
9. Marcos Serrano
10. Michael Boogerd

2002 TDF top ten
1. Lance Armstrong (maybe)
2. Joseba Beloki
3. Raimondas Rumsas
4. Santiago Botero
5. Igor Gonzalez Galdeano
6. Jose Azevedo
7. Francisco Mancebo
8. Levi Leipheimer
9. Roberto Heras
10. Carlos Sastre

2003 TDF top ten
1. Lance Armstrong (maybe)
2. Jan Ullrich (maybe)
3. Alexandre Vinokourov
4. Tyler Hamilton
5. Haimar Zubeldia
6. Iban Mayo
7. Ivan Basso
8. Christophe Moreau
9. Carlos Sastre
10. Francisco Mancebo

2004 TDF top ten
1. Lance Armstrong (maybe)
2. Andréas Klöden
3. Ivan Basso
4. Jan Ullrich (maybe)
5. José Azevedo
6. Francisco Mancebo
7. Georg Totschnig
8. Carlos Sastre
9. Levi Leipheimer
10. Oscar Pereiro

2005 TDF top ten
1. Lance Armstrong (maybe)
2. Ivan Basso
3. Jan Ullrich (maybe)
4. Francisco Mancebo
5. Alexandre Vinokourov
6. Levi Leipheimer
7. Mickael Rasmussen
8. Cadel Evans
9. Floyd Landis
10. Oscar Pereiro

2006 TDF top ten
1. Floyd, Floyd, Floyd...

I'm done... D U N... Done! Please add to, subtract, correct or whatever as you see fit.

 

[Escarabajo]

Ok. This is my crazy list. This is the Criteria used:

Anything related with doping and is out. Even if it is strong gossip (works with Ferrari), issues that has not been processed by the UCI (Frank Schleck money to Fuentes, Armstrong positives, Kloden transfusion visits, Human Plasma visitors, Puerto Nicknames, etc).


I usually stopped when I heard nothing of the rider. There are no warranties that he was cleanish but I have nothing:

1999
10- Andrea Peron (?)
17- Kurt Van de Wouwer
18- David Etxebarria

2000
16- Roberto Conti (?)
17- Kurt Van de Wouwer
18- Guido Trentin

2001
6- Andrei Kivilev (?)
7- Francois Simon
12- Iñigo Chaurreau

2002
10 Carlos Sastre
13- David Moncoutie
14- Massimiliano Lelli (?)
15- Stephen Goubert

2003
9- Carlos Sastre
13- Peter Luttember
15- Massimiliano Lelli (?)
18- Roberto Laiseka

2004
8- Carlos Sastre
13- Vladimir Karpets
16- Sandy Casar

2005
8- Cadel Evans
20- Giussepe Guerini
21- Carlos Sastre

2006
4- Carlos Sastre
5- Cadel Evans
7- Cyril Dessel

2007
2- Cadel Evans
4- Carlos Sastre
7- Kim Kirchen

2008
1- Carlos Sastre
2- Cadel Evans
5- Christian Vandevelde

2009
2- Andy Schleck
4- Bradley Wiggins
8- Christian Vandevelde

2010
2- Andy Schleck
4- Samuel Sanchez
5- Jurgen Van den Broek

If you feel that a rider should be out please do tell the doping offense.

Note: By the way, there is no way I can make a list for ten riders. I could probably get to the Lanterne Rouge

 

[Hugh Januss]

This whole thing becomes a pointless argument if we just stop and think about the writing that is out there with regard to the advantage that is there for an individual who is "properly prepared". When the 50% rule was in effect the advantage lay with guys who had naturally low Crit levels (like Lance) because they had the most to gain. As the EPO test got better and the 50% rule came into effect the focus changed to recovery, both during races with transfusions and test. and during training with micro dosing EPO, HGH and other recovery drugs. The idea became to disappear to a training camp somewhere and train harder than you would ever race, but with a system of recovery drugs that would keep you from breaking down. Racing year round was a dead end street. Does that plan sound at all familiar?
Anyway the 1 million dollar question becomes, knowing what we know about the advantage gained from modern doping programs who really believes that there are these few supermen out there who, while they might have not won, were still so talented that they were right up there in the running with the dopers. Personally I am very skeptical.

 

[on3m@n@rmy]

BTW, we can't forget Landis in 2006 now can we!

Here's my list... the red names are who I know of caught doping or were banned at some point in their career but not necessarily in the year listed. Pinks are possibles, and I'm an LA fan... so far.

1995 TDF top ten
1. Miguel Indurain
2. Alex Zulle
3. Bjarne Riis
4. Laurent Jalabert
5. Ivan Gotti
6. Melchor Mauri
7. Fernando Escartin
8. Tony Rominger
9. Richard Virenque
10. Hernan Buenahora

1996 TDF top ten
1. Bjarne Riis
2. Jan Ullrich (maybe)
3. Richard Virenque
4. Laurent Dufaux
5. Peter Luttenberger
6. Luc Leblanc
7. Piotr Ugrumov
8. Fernando Escartin
9. Abraham Olano
10. Tony Rominger

1997 TDF top ten
1. Jan Ullrich (maybe)
2. Richard Virenque
3. Marco Pantani
4. Abraham Olano
5. Fernando Escartin
6. Francesco Casagrande
7. Bjarne Riis
8. Jose Maria Jimenez
9. Laurent Dufaux
10. Roberto Conti

1998 TDF top ten
1. Marco Pantani
2. Jan Ullrich (maybe)
3. Bobby Julich
4. Christophe Rinero
5. Michael Boogerd
6. Jean-Cyril Robin
7. Roland Meier
8. Daniele Nardello
9. Giuseppe Di Grande
10. Axel Merckx

1999 TDF top ten
1. Lance Armstrong (maybe)
2. Alex Zuelle
3. Fernando Escartin
4. Laurent Dufaux
5. Angel Casero
6. Abraham Olano
7. Daniele Nardello
8. Richard Virenque
9. Wladimir Belli
10. Andrea Peron

2000 TDF top ten
1. Lance Armstrong (maybe)
2. Jan Ullrich (maybe)
3. Joseba Beloki
4. Christophe Moreau
5. Roberto Heras
6. Richard Virenque
7. Santiago Botero
8. Fernando Escartin
9. Francisco Mancebo
10. Daniele Nardello

2001 TDF top ten
1. Lance Armstrong (maybe)
2. Jan Ullrich (maybe)
3. Joseba Beloki
4. Andrei Kivilev
5. Igor Gonzalez De Galdeano
6. Francois Simon
7. Oscar Sevilla
8. Santiago Botero
9. Marcos Serrano
10. Michael Boogerd

2002 TDF top ten
1. Lance Armstrong (maybe)
2. Joseba Beloki
3. Raimondas Rumsas
4. Santiago Botero
5. Igor Gonzalez Galdeano
6. Jose Azevedo
7. Francisco Mancebo
8. Levi Leipheimer
9. Roberto Heras
10. Carlos Sastre

2003 TDF top ten
1. Lance Armstrong (maybe)
2. Jan Ullrich (maybe)
3. Alexandre Vinokourov
4. Tyler Hamilton
5. Haimar Zubeldia
6. Iban Mayo
7. Ivan Basso
8. Christophe Moreau
9. Carlos Sastre
10. Francisco Mancebo

2004 TDF top ten
1. Lance Armstrong (maybe)
2. Andréas Klöden
3. Ivan Basso
4. Jan Ullrich (maybe)
5. José Azevedo
6. Francisco Mancebo
7. Georg Totschnig
8. Carlos Sastre
9. Levi Leipheimer
10. Oscar Pereiro

2005 TDF top ten
1. Lance Armstrong (maybe)
2. Ivan Basso
3. Jan Ullrich (maybe)
4. Francisco Mancebo
5. Alexandre Vinokourov
6. Levi Leipheimer
7. Mickael Rasmussen
8. Cadel Evans
9. Floyd Landis
10. Oscar Pereiro

2006 TDF top ten
1. Floyd, Floyd, Floyd...

I'm done... D U N... Done! Please add to, subtract, correct or whatever as you see fit.

got my second wind for 1995-1998 above^

 

[Escarabajo]

...
Anyway the 1 million dollar question becomes, knowing what we know about the advantage gained from modern doping programs who really believes that there are these few supermen out there who, while they might have not won, were still so talented that they were right up there in the running with the dopers. Personally I am very skeptical.

Wel put. It is a pointless exercise.

I can not help to think that Sastre could have won 5 times. Can you believe that? I still have some doubts about him.

 

[Ninety5rpm]

I think 95rpm means the top 10 finishers in each year for the last 15 years (that's 150 guys), which would be a hell of a lot bigger project than the winner over the past 15 years. Which did you mean 95?

You're correct.

 

[skidmark]

got my second wind for 1995-1998 above^

Just to take off a few names (some you might consider in pink, whatever):

Dufaux, Virenque, Moreau: Festina affair
Mancebo: Puerto
Mayo: positive for EPO in 2007
Boogerd: implicated in that centrifuge thing, wasn't he? Humanplasma?
Levi: Other than the 1996 positive, he was recently implicated strongly by Landis and Holczer for the 2005 Tour
Totschnig: I thought he tested positive or admitted doping
Kloden: Freiburg affair

 

[Waterloo Sunrise]

That list is missing Levi.

 

[Benotti69]

This whole thing becomes a pointless argument if we just stop and think about the writing that is out there with regard to the advantage that is there for an individual who is "properly prepared". When the 50% rule was in effect the advantage lay with guys who had naturally low Crit levels (like Lance) because they had the most to gain. As the EPO test got better and the 50% rule came into effect the focus changed to recovery, both during races with transfusions and test. and during training with micro dosing EPO, HGH and other recovery drugs. The idea became to disappear to a training camp somewhere and train harder than you would ever race, but with a system of recovery drugs that would keep you from breaking down. Racing year round was a dead end street. Does that plan sound at all familiar?
Anyway the 1 million dollar question becomes, knowing what we know about the advantage gained from modern doping programs who really believes that there are these few supermen out there who, while they might have not won, were still so talented that they were right up there in the running with the dopers. Personally I am very skeptical.

I agree, how could anyone make it into the top 20/30 without EPO, when people like Fignon were being passed by 30 mediocre guys on a mountain that he dropped them all on previously.....it is impossible to decide as a guy in the top 30 without EPO might have been 130th.....and the guy in 130th might not have finished a 3week GT without EPO....so better to wipe the slate clean and start again with new tests, new UCI, better blood tests, DNA sampling, longer bans etc...

 

[Escarabajo]

That list is missing Levi.

Yeah, because he is so clean.

 

[Le breton]

Ok. This is my crazy list. This is the Criteria used:

Anything related with doping and is out. Even if it is strong gossip (works with Ferrari), issues that has not been processed by the UCI (Frank Schleck money to Fuentes, Armstrong positives, Kloden transfusion visits, Human Plasma visitors, Puerto Nicknames, etc).


I usually stopped when I heard nothing of the rider. There are no warranties that he was cleanish but I have nothing:

1999
10- Andrea Peron (?)
17- Kurt Van de Wouwer
18- David Etxebarria

2000
16- Roberto Conti (?)
17- Kurt Van de Wouwer
18- Guido Trentin

2001
6- Andrei Kivilev (?)
7- Francois Simon
12- Iñigo Chaurreau

2002
10 Carlos Sastre
13- David Moncoutie
14- Massimiliano Lelli (?)
15- Stephen Goubert

2003
9- Carlos Sastre
13- Peter Luttember
15- Massimiliano Lelli (?)
18- Roberto Laiseka

2004
8- Carlos Sastre
13- Vladimir Karpets
16- Sandy Casar

2005
8- Cadel Evans
20- Giussepe Guerini
21- Carlos Sastre

2006
4- Carlos Sastre
5- Cadel Evans
7- Cyril Dessel

2007
2- Cadel Evans
4- Carlos Sastre
7- Kim Kirchen

2008
1- Carlos Sastre
2- Cadel Evans
5- Christian Vandevelde

2009
2- Andy Schleck
4- Bradley Wiggins
8- Christian Vandevelde

2010
2- Andy Schleck
4- Samuel Sanchez
5- Jurgen Van den Broek

If you feel that a rider should be out please do tell the doping offense.

Note: By the way, there is no way I can make a list for ten riders. I could probably get to the Lanterne Rouge

Hola Escarabajo,
You obviously gave it some serious thought.
I have been following pro cycling less and less and with a mor and more skeptical eye for many years. Particularly after hopes of a clean peloton were dashed in 1999. Although I must admit it was fun watching Flandis on his epic ride in 2006.

In view of the extraordinary performances in the Giro from 1990 until a very few years ago and the even more astounding (sometimes) so-called performances in the Vuelta until even more recently, I tended to dismiss all Italian and Spanish pro cyclists.

My reasoning was : how can a clean amateur ever be noticed in a country where you need a VO2 max of 100 to win a major race?

After reading your post I think I may have to reconsider the case of Carlos Sastre as I remember him as a consistent performer but who never performs at the "out of this world" level. A bit like Evans.

Until now I thought a clean rider really could not do better than 40ieth in the 2004 TdF for example.
Maybe I was wrong.
Have to leave, skype is calling me from Costa Rica

 

[Le breton]

Ok. This is my crazy list. This is the Criteria used:

Anything related with doping and is out. Even if it is strong gossip (works with Ferrari), issues that has not been processed by the UCI (Frank Schleck money to Fuentes, Armstrong positives, Kloden transfusion visits, Human Plasma visitors, Puerto Nicknames, etc).


I usually stopped when I heard nothing of the rider. There are no warranties that he was cleanish but I have nothing:

1999
10- Andrea Peron (?)
17- Kurt Van de Wouwer
18- David Etxebarria

2000
16- Roberto Conti (?)
17- Kurt Van de Wouwer
18- Guido Trentin

2001
6- Andrei Kivilev (?)
7- Francois Simon
12- Iñigo Chaurreau

2002
10 Carlos Sastre
13- David Moncoutie
14- Massimiliano Lelli (?)
15- Stephen Goubert

2003
9- Carlos Sastre
13- Peter Luttember
15- Massimiliano Lelli (?)
18- Roberto Laiseka

2004
8- Carlos Sastre
13- Vladimir Karpets
16- Sandy Casar

2005
8- Cadel Evans
20- Giussepe Guerini
21- Carlos Sastre

2006
4- Carlos Sastre
5- Cadel Evans
7- Cyril Dessel

2007
2- Cadel Evans
4- Carlos Sastre
7- Kim Kirchen

2008
1- Carlos Sastre
2- Cadel Evans
5- Christian Vandevelde

2009
2- Andy Schleck
4- Bradley Wiggins
8- Christian Vandevelde

2010
2- Andy Schleck
4- Samuel Sanchez
5- Jurgen Van den Broek

If you feel that a rider should be out please do tell the doping offense.

Note: By the way, there is no way I can make a list for ten riders. I could probably get to the Lanterne Rouge

Hola Escarabajo,
You obviously gave it some serious thought.
I have been following pro cycling less and less and with a mor and more skeptical eye for many years. Particularly after hopes of a clean peloton were dashed in 1999. Although I must admit it was fun watching Flandis on his epic ride in 2006.

In view of the extraordinary performances in the Giro from 1990 until a very few years ago and the even more astounding (sometimes) so-called performances in the Vuelta until even more recently, I tended to dismiss all Italian and Spanish pro cyclists.

My reasoning was : how can a clean amateur ever be noticed in a country where you need a VO2 max of 100 to win a major race?

After reading your post I think I may have to reconsider the case of Carlos Sastre as I remember him as a consistent performer but who never performs at the "out of this world" level. A bit like Evans.

Until now I thought a clean rider really could not do better than 40ieth in the 2004 TdF for example.
Maybe I was wrong.
Have to leave, skype is calling me from Costa Rica

 

[on3m@n@rmy]

I agree, how could anyone make it into the top 20/30 without EPO, when people like Fignon were being passed by 30 mediocre guys on a mountain that he dropped them all on previously.....it is impossible to decide as a guy in the top 30 without EPO might have been 130th.....and the guy in 130th might not have finished a 3week GT without EPO....so better to wipe the slate clean and start again with new tests, new UCI, better blood tests, DNA sampling, longer bans etc...

Good point. Some evidence to support that, here's a list of all USPS/Discovery TDF teammates between 1999 through 2005. The guys bolded are proven dopers, and notice that most of them (except Andreu) have gotten some good race results.
Floyd Landis (USA)
Roberto Heras (Spa)
Tyler Hamilton (USA)
Manuel Beltran (Spa)
Frankie Andreu (USA)
Lance Armstrong (USA)
Benjamin Noval (Spa)
Benoit Joachim (Lux)
Christian Vandevelde (USA)
George Hincapie (USA)
Jonathan Vaughters (USA)
Jose Azevedo (Por)
Jose Luis Rubiera (Spa)
Kevin Livingston (USA)
Paolo Savoldelli (Ita)
Pascal Derame (Fra)
Pavel Padrnos (Cze)
Peter Meinert-Nielsen (Den)
Steffen Kjaergaard (Nor)
Viatcheslav Ekimov (Rus)
Victor Hugo Pena (Col)
Yaroslav Popovych (Ukr)

 

[Anonymous]

2010
2- Andy Schleck
4- Samuel Sanchez
5- Jurgen Van den Broek

Andy Schleck? *s*******

 

[Willy_Voet]

Sastre is out (he rode for Manolo Saiz, enough said)
Lelli is out (Cofidis affair)

 

[Escarabajo]

Andy Schleck? *s*******

I have the same feeling as you do, but I have nothing on him other than his brother is making deals with Fuentes. FWIW, I have no idea what my brother is doing and we are working in the same Industry. We can not conclude anything from it. Note that on the latest tours we have less proof on the top riders. This could be an indication that we need a doping bust or police raid soon. That way we can start deducting whatever riders are left. Until then, that's how I see it.

 

[Frosty]

2002
10 Carlos Sastre
13- David Moncoutie
14- Massimiliano Lelli (?)
15- Stephen Goubert

2003
9- Carlos Sastre
13- Peter Luttember
15- Massimiliano Lelli (?)
18- Roberto Laiseka

Lelli was named by Millar and Gaumont as being a supplier in the Cofidis affair.

http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/summer04/cycling/news/story?id=1852059

Dont know if anything was proven though.

 

[Escarabajo]

Sastre is out (he rode for Manolo Saiz, enough said)
Lelli is out (Cofidis affair)

That's not enough proof. By using the same theory we would have to take Christophe Bassons out.

Do we want to say all US Postal service/Discovery riders doped in the past? what about Michael Creed?

I'll take Lelli out.

 

[Escarabajo]

Lelli was named by Millar and Gaumont as being a supplier in the Cofidis affair.

http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/summer04/cycling/news/story?id=1852059

Dont know if anything was proven though.

I knew there was something related with Lelli but I was not sure. I guess that's why I had a contingency plan. Stephen Goubert and Roberto Laiseka move up as new podium candidates.