Team Ineos Discussion thread

[Galic Ho]

Re: Re:

Grappe: “The rule is very clear. Any aerodynamic addition to the jersey is banned. Sky have clearly infringed.”

UCI/Race Jury: The pellets are “an actual part of the jersey”

Not the most convincing line of argument there

It is clear from the pictures that the patches were added. They may be stuck to the jersey in some way but they are not part of the fabric.

with the jury's argument, you could sew a CamelBak into the jersey or aerodynamic fins or wings and they'd be "part of the jersey".

Flo, it was used by G.THoms and Kiry during the Giro 1st TT.
did anyone notice and asked questions?
it was used by Froome during the Dauphiné TT.

why people are asking about it just now?

doesnt it show a lack of attention?

are there more "July fans" than we thought?

where was Grappe when his FDJ riders raced alonside Thomas Kiry and Froome when they used it in May and June?

Good points.

But why, why, were there numbers for the supposed time gain these vortex generators could have created?

It makes zero sense for them to suddenly be pulled out of no where! Yet they were there.

 

[Brullnux]

Re:

from Castelli :

from The UCI rule clearly states that non-essential items that improve aerodynamics cannot be added to clothing. But Smith says despite the appearance, the dimples are actually part of the fabric itself, not an addition. “The dimples are in the fabric, not on them,” he says. “The way the rules are written, we didn’t even think it would apply to what we were doing. The dimples do not fundamentally change the shape of the cyclist.” Smith wouldn’t reveal the process by which the dimples are formed.


Read more at http://www.velonews.com/2017/07/news/skys-skin-suit-illegal-probably-not-just-barely_442636#XXDMFIELIDStCw1A.99Castelli:

Seriously pedantic. Well done to Sky and Castelli (and Movistar and Endura) for finding the smallest of loopholes. Not even a loophole really. It really depends on a person's view of what 'adding' is: if you believe it has to be something literally stuck on the jersey like Castelli do, or is you believe it if anything extra to a normal jersey. I am not convinced at all by this explanation and not sure it is able to hold up against the UCI laws despite their ambiguity.

 

[Vasilis]

Re: Re:

from Castelli :

from The UCI rule clearly states that non-essential items that improve aerodynamics cannot be added to clothing. But Smith says despite the appearance, the dimples are actually part of the fabric itself, not an addition. “The dimples are in the fabric, not on them,” he says. “The way the rules are written, we didn’t even think it would apply to what we were doing. The dimples do not fundamentally change the shape of the cyclist.” Smith wouldn’t reveal the process by which the dimples are formed.


Read more at http://www.velonews.com/2017/07/news/skys-skin-suit-illegal-probably-not-just-barely_442636#XXDMFIELIDStCw1A.99Castelli:

Seriously pedantic. Well done to Sky and Castelli (and Movistar and Endura) for finding the smallest of loopholes. Not even a loophole really. It really depends on a person's view of what 'adding' is: if you believe it has to be something literally stuck on the jersey like Castelli do, or is you believe it if anything extra to a normal jersey. I am not convinced at all by this explanation and not sure it is able to hold up against the UCI laws despite their ambiguity.

The UCI themselves confirmed it's allowed. Case closed.

 

[deValtos]

The fact this is even a story is hilarious.

 

[CTQ]

Re: Re:

from Castelli :

from The UCI rule clearly states that non-essential items that improve aerodynamics cannot be added to clothing. But Smith says despite the appearance, the dimples are actually part of the fabric itself, not an addition. “The dimples are in the fabric, not on them,” he says. “The way the rules are written, we didn’t even think it would apply to what we were doing. The dimples do not fundamentally change the shape of the cyclist.” Smith wouldn’t reveal the process by which the dimples are formed.


Read more at http://www.velonews.com/2017/07/news/skys-skin-suit-illegal-probably-not-just-barely_442636#XXDMFIELIDStCw1A.99Castelli:

Seriously pedantic. Well done to Sky and Castelli (and Movistar and Endura) for finding the smallest of loopholes. Not even a loophole really. It really depends on a person's view of what 'adding' is: if you believe it has to be something literally stuck on the jersey like Castelli do, or is you believe it if anything extra to a normal jersey. I am not convinced at all by this explanation and not sure it is able to hold up against the UCI laws despite their ambiguity.

with all we can do now with a 3D printer , it shouldn't be difficult to have the technology for special fabric.

 

[jmdirt]

Re:

Valverde's raised arrowheads suit works on the same principle: moving the boundary layer. How come nobody complains about these suits from the Scottish company Endura ? https://www.flickr.com/photos/149764128@N08/shares/4eVi2J

That's a race number pouch.

 

[Vasilis]

Re: Re:

Valverde's raised arrowheads suit works on the same principle: moving the boundary layer. How come nobody complains about these suits from the Scottish company Endura ? https://www.flickr.com/photos/149764128@N08/shares/4eVi2J

That's a race number pouch.

I think he means the padded arms

 

[jmdirt]

Re: Re:

from Castelli :

from The UCI rule clearly states that non-essential items that improve aerodynamics cannot be added to clothing. But Smith says despite the appearance, the dimples are actually part of the fabric itself, not an addition. “The dimples are in the fabric, not on them,” he says. “The way the rules are written, we didn’t even think it would apply to what we were doing. The dimples do not fundamentally change the shape of the cyclist.” Smith wouldn’t reveal the process by which the dimples are formed.


Read more at http://www.velonews.com/2017/07/news/skys-skin-suit-illegal-probably-not-just-barely_442636#XXDMFIELIDStCw1A.99Castelli:

Seriously pedantic. Well done to Sky and Castelli (and Movistar and Endura) for finding the smallest of loopholes. Not even a loophole really. It really depends on a person's view of what 'adding' is: if you believe it has to be something literally stuck on the jersey like Castelli do, or is you believe it if anything extra to a normal jersey. I am not convinced at all by this explanation and not sure it is able to hold up against the UCI laws despite their ambiguity.

The UCI themselves confirmed it's allowed. Case closed.

I've said the same thing three times now in this thread...don't be POed at Sky or Cast, the UCI said they are good to go so if you have to be mad, be mad at the UCI (for one more thing).

 

[jmdirt]

Re: Re:

Valverde's raised arrowheads suit works on the same principle: moving the boundary layer. How come nobody complains about these suits from the Scottish company Endura ? https://www.flickr.com/photos/149764128@N08/shares/4eVi2J

That's a race number pouch.

I think he means the padded arms

Those are to keep him warm!

 

[oldcrank]

Re: Re:

Grappe: “The rule is very clear. Any aerodynamic addition to the jersey is banned. Sky have clearly infringed.”

UCI/Race Jury: The pellets are “an actual part of the jersey”

Not the most convincing line of argument there

It is clear from the pictures that the patches were added. They may be stuck to the jersey in some way but they are not part of the fabric.

with the jury's argument, you could sew a CamelBak into the jersey or aerodynamic fins or wings and they'd be "part of the jersey".

Flo, it was used by G.THoms and Kiry during the Giro 1st TT.
did anyone notice and asked questions?
it was used by Froome during the Dauphiné TT.

why people are asking about it just now?

doesnt it show a lack of attention?

are there more "July fans" than we thought?

where was Grappe when his FDJ riders raced alonside Thomas Kiry and Froome when they used it in May and June?

Good points.

But why, why, were there numbers for the supposed time gain these vortex generators could have created?

It makes zero sense for them to suddenly be pulled out of no where! Yet they were there.

That is a question best asked of Grappe. He came up with the numbers.
And since he'd never seen the Castelli Body Paint 4.0 Speedsuit before
(let alone ran tests with it), I agree,' it makes zero sense.'

 

[Brullnux]

Re: Re:

from Castelli :

from The UCI rule clearly states that non-essential items that improve aerodynamics cannot be added to clothing. But Smith says despite the appearance, the dimples are actually part of the fabric itself, not an addition. “The dimples are in the fabric, not on them,” he says. “The way the rules are written, we didn’t even think it would apply to what we were doing. The dimples do not fundamentally change the shape of the cyclist.” Smith wouldn’t reveal the process by which the dimples are formed.


Read more at http://www.velonews.com/2017/07/news/skys-skin-suit-illegal-probably-not-just-barely_442636#XXDMFIELIDStCw1A.99Castelli:

Seriously pedantic. Well done to Sky and Castelli (and Movistar and Endura) for finding the smallest of loopholes. Not even a loophole really. It really depends on a person's view of what 'adding' is: if you believe it has to be something literally stuck on the jersey like Castelli do, or is you believe it if anything extra to a normal jersey. I am not convinced at all by this explanation and not sure it is able to hold up against the UCI laws despite their ambiguity.

The UCI themselves confirmed it's allowed. Case closed.

The UCI chats out their arse most the time, and they'll say anything to make their life easier. But because of the ambiguity of the rules, it can be interpreted either way by anyone - rules should be as unsubjective as possible, with as few interpretations as possible. A lot of experienced cyclists have questioned it, and other teams, which shows the inadeqaucy of the lawbook. My request is that they clear it up, I am not accusing anyone of cheating. It's just another one of those "marginal gains" that walks the tightrope of being legal but just errs on the right side.

 

[adamfo]

Re: Re:

Valverde's raised arrowheads suit works on the same principle: moving the boundary layer. How come nobody complains about these suits from the Scottish company Endura ? https://www.flickr.com/photos/149764128@N08/shares/4eVi2J

That's a race number pouch.

Look closer. An obvious attempt to stop laminar airflow. https://www.flickr.com/photos/149764128@N08/shares/H2TDGM

In the late 1980's I bought a BMW motorcycle helmet with a dimpled top. Designed to reduce buffeting from the airflow leaving the rear of the helmet. Can't say I really noticed any difference though...

 

[King Boonen]

Drag2zero started this kind of development of skinsuits in 2010, I think, with Tony Martin and currently produce a ribbed (for rider pleasure...) skinsuit with Endura that does the same as these bobbles. I'm unsure when they started modifying fabrics to reduce drag but it's a pretty obvious development. Pretty sure loads of pros have been using them and similar products for a while now, certainly the recent hour records from Dowsett and Brandle, not sure about Wiggins. I remember a good few people wearing ribbed suits at the Worlds last year and I can remember Martin wearing one as far back as 2012 in the Olympics. Wiggins and Froome had that bank note band in their olympics kit. As has been pointed out, Movistar are using the current Endura (not available to the public yet) version. Basically, this kind of thing isn't new and if people are complaining now they should have been complaining ages ago. You should also be complaining about TT helmets and shoe covers (in the dry) as both are only there to reduce air resistance.


The rule is very poorly written. If you take Brullnux's reading of it then technically silcone grippers on the inside of the sleeves of jerseys and the legs of bibs should be banned, as their purpose is to keep them in place and smooth out the kit. Number windows are used to reduce drag so these should be banned as well, along with TT helmets.

Really the rule is there to stop teams modifying kit after production and approval and they should probably include that in the wording. The part about items is to try and prevent things Like when Frank Schleck used a camelbak to drink water (and change his body shape) in a TT. He's not alone in doing that, but I think he's the most high profile example.

 

[spalco]

Even soccer jerseys that have no aerodynamic considerations in the design are made from multiple different fabrics stitched together.
I don't know how much of that is just PR, and I think that Castelli jersey looks stupid, but it's clearly within the rules imo.

 

[King Boonen]

Oh, I should probably have made the point a bit clearer when I said Movistar are using the Endura version:

That's not in a TT...

 

[LaFlorecita]

"The UCI approved" is the worst argument ever. We know what the UCI approved in the past...

The droplets are obviously not part of the fabric. You can see they're seperate patches. Yes they may have been integrated into the jersey in some way, but that doesn't mean they weren't added solely for the aerodynamic purpose. In this way they are different than the Movistar bumps.

 

[King Boonen]

Re:

"The UCI approved" is the worst argument ever. We know what the UCI approved in the past...

The droplets are obviously not part of the fabric. You can see they're seperate patches. Yes they may have been integrated into the jersey in some way, but that doesn't mean they weren't added solely for the aerodynamic purpose. In this way they are different than the Movistar bumps.

What? Possibly the most reaching comment yet.

Firstly, a jersey is made of several parts. It doesn't matter how they are stitched together. Castelli have incorporated a patch into the jersey. Or are you going to argue that the TT suit should all be one material type? If so we can punish this guy too:

Notice the dimpling effect on that skinsuit? Similar to a golfball... and those forearm covers stitched on are clearly not needed either, only there to reduce drag.

Secondly the V's on the Movistar jersey are printed on. Their sole purpose is to reduce drag. if anything you should be much more annoyed about that. The patches on the sky jersey could be argued to be an integral part of the jersey, the V's on Movistars jersey cannot.

 

[Brullnux]

I'm not saying I read it that way, I am saying that it could be read that way. They just need to clear it up.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

snip

Have you seen the photos? there is LITERALLY a patch with droplets on the upper arm and on the shoulder. The rest of the fabric is see through so you can clearly see it was added as a seperate layer. I'm NOT saying you can't have a kit consisting of multiple fabrics sewn together but in this case an extra layer was added with the droplets. It's as clear as water.

 

[King Boonen]

Re:

I'm not saying I read it that way, I am saying that it could be read that way. They just need to clear it up.

I guessed that, I just used that reading as it was the newest post. The problem with the rules is that they are now having to cope with a lot of R and D that the rule makers probably don't understand. Similar to how the teams are collaborating with F1 teams, I think the UCI should take a page out of their book and speak to the FIA to get some help on how to control all this properly. If they want to of course.

I'm guessing people are questioning Sagan's kit from yesterday too?

I'm guessing this kind of kit has a very similar effect to a golf ball. Of course, many other teams have similar kits, just an example.

 

[DFA123]

Whether they are technically legal or not right now, the UCI should really just issue standard skinsuits to each team. Otherwise cycling is going to turn into Formula 1, where the race is decided by technological advancements off the bike, rather than on it. Currently, it's just not a level playing field; most teams can't afford an exclusivity contract with Endura or Castelli for the latest designs.

That would also remove the current disadvantage that jersey leaders have when having to race in the UCI standard skinsuit. Which is a ridiculous situation.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

I'm not saying I read it that way, I am saying that it could be read that way. They just need to clear it up.

I guessed that, I just used that reading as it was the newest post. The problem with the rules is that they are now having to cope with a lot of R and D that the rule makers probably don't understand. Similar to how the teams are collaborating with F1 teams, I think the UCI should take a page out of their book and speak to the FIA to get some help on how to control all this properly. If they want to of course.

I'm guessing people are questioning Sagan's kit from yesterday too?

I'm guessing this kind of kit has a very similar effect to a golf ball. Of course, many other teams have similar kits, just an example.

You can't read I gather? the dimples on that kit as the ones on the Sportful TT kit are part of the fabric
this

isn't

if the argument is that the patches with droplets are "a part of the jersey" as they are stuck to it, might as well put a Camelbak between two layers of fabric. Ta da! Part of the jersey.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re:

Whether they are technically legal or not right now, the UCI should really just issue standard skinsuits to each team. Otherwise cycling is going to turn into Formula 1, where the race is decided by technological advancements off the bike, rather than on it. Currently, it's just not a level playing field; most teams can't afford an exclusivity contract with Endura or Castelli for the latest designs.

That would also remove the current disadvantage that jersey leaders have when having to race in the UCI standard skinsuit. Which is a ridiculous situation.

The biggest disadvantage of the standard race leader kit is probably that they don't fit as well

as for the exclusivity contract - I may be mistaken but isn't there a rule that anything riders use must be available on the market as well? except prototypes

 

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

Whether they are technically legal or not right now, the UCI should really just issue standard skinsuits to each team. Otherwise cycling is going to turn into Formula 1, where the race is decided by technological advancements off the bike, rather than on it. Currently, it's just not a level playing field; most teams can't afford an exclusivity contract with Endura or Castelli for the latest designs.

That would also remove the current disadvantage that jersey leaders have when having to race in the UCI standard skinsuit. Which is a ridiculous situation.

The biggest disadvantage of the standard race leader kit is probably that they don't fit as well

as for the exclusivity contract - I may be mistaken but isn't there a rule that anything riders use must be available on the market as well? except prototypes

I think it has to be available on the open market in theory. But not in reality. They can charge such ridiculous prices, or make sales only through special requests to a company.

And anyway, even if they genuinely do put the new skinsuit or whatever on open sale the day or two before the Tour, it's obviously way too late for the smaller teams to make use the same technology.

It seems a bit strange that the UCI is still enforcing weight limits on bikes for pretty much the same reasons - i.e. to prevent an 'arms' race where the richest teams will generally benefit most - but allow the big budget teams to still gain an advantage in different ways.

 

[King Boonen]

Re: Re:

snip

Have you seen the photos? there is LITERALLY a patch with droplets on the upper arm and on the shoulder. The rest of the fabric is see through so you can clearly see it was added as a seperate layer. I'm NOT saying you can't have a kit consisting of multiple fabrics sewn together but in this case an extra layer was added with the droplets. It's as clear as water.

Yes, and as I pointed out that is pretty much exactly what Endura do. They add the arrows to the skinsuit/jersery fabric after it is made, just like Castelli add that patch after the fact/during the process.

Are layers the problem? Because this is certainly not the first layered jersey that looks like it's designed to cheat drag.

Here's an IAM jersey with multiple layers at the shoulders:

In fact, this webbing type fabric usually consists of 2 or three layers itself. Lots of skinsuits made out of similar material on display...