Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[thehog]

More importantly than him being a Brit is that he's a mod, and mods never took drugs...oh, wait a sec...

For what it's worth - which is nothing - I actually believe that he's telling the truth.

Hearing on EuroSport now that Tommy Simpson died of dehydration says it all!

 

[rolfrae]

Hearing on EuroSport now that Tommy Simpson died of dehydration says it all!

Because all those pills he took made him thirsty, or did they not mention that bit?

 

[Cerberus]

No, but many here were quoting Wiggins press conferences and 'lack of forthright denial' as being pointers towards doping.
This, at the very least, should be considered as a counter to that.

Fair enough. I agree with that, and I never personally really read much into Wiggins anger. I though it was hypocritical and at odds with his earlier stance, but it can just as easily be read as the anger of a man who knows he's innocent as the anger of a man who knows he's guilty. It wasn't exactly Bjarne Riis, "I've never been tested positive" material.

 

[Cobblestones]

Some of us had doubts in 2009 when Wigans released his values at a time when he was still trying out this transparency nonsense. A thread which is worthwhile to re-read.

Here´s the money quote from the thread. In 2009 Jakob Moerkeberg said about Wigan´s published TdF numbers:

He hasn't published as many values, but his values are not following a pattern that you would expect from a physiological point of view.

The quote came from Velocitynation

It´s really simple. Wigans doped then and is still doping now. Only, he (or Geert Leinders) has figured out to do it much more effectively than anybody else. The expert opinion of Moerkeberg from published 2009 values is enough to convince me. Is it enough for you, 180mmCrank? This TdF is Clinic material and here´s where I´ll discuss it.

 

[the asian]

Can you explain why a world class pursuit rider cannot become a world class road time trialist and why a world class road time trialist cannot become a GC contender?

If these 3 events are SO incompatible then we would expect there to be little cross over either way. We would not expect successful road cyclists to perform successfully on the track either. If you or anyone starts going down the "recovery" angle then you really have no clue about the training practices of world class track riders versus world class road cyclists. Who do you think trains at higher intensity on a regular basis for a lot of their career? So who would need better recovery?



I haven't noticed any mountains on the track

 

[function]

A 4k race vs 40 or 50k? You put a smile on my face. Even good old Chris Boardman - very nice fellow indeed - couldn't win a TT in Tour, Vuelta or Giro. Prologues ok, not the big 40k's.

But off course Brad, as the second coming, should be able to top that and transform in a GT winner. Bullocks. Indurain, Armstrong, Wiggins: no difference at all.

A few facts;

1) Chris Hoy isn't a pursuiter, the demands for a kilo are very different from a pursuit.

2) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UCI_Road_World_Championships_-_Men's_Time_Trial

 

[mewmewmew13]

Because all those pills he took made him thirsty, or did they not mention that bit?

That caught my ears too....waiting to hear Sean elaborate but not giving much out except a slight nod to 'possibly mentioning amphetamines' bla bla needing to watch for doping not just in cycling but ANY sport...then silence..

 

[mastersracer]

Here´s the money quote from the thread. In 2009 Jakob Moerkeberg said about Wigan´s published TdF numbers:



The quote came from Velocitynation

It´s really simple. Wigans doped then and is still doping now. Only, he (or Geert Leinders) has figured out to do it much more effectively than anybody else. The expert opinion of Moerkeberg from published 2009 values is enough to convince me. Is it enough for you, 180mmCrank? This TdF is Clinic material and here´s where I´ll discuss it.

This is a perfect example of the mistaken inferences made in this thread: It is not that simple because the values Moerkeberg is referring to are not statistically significant. He says that in that interview - 'the variations are within the noise.' This thread has gone way beyond mere suspicions - anyone who performs well in the Tour is suspicious given the history of doping in the sport. But, this thread has escalated to a full-blown systematic team conspiracy.

The simplest explanation for this thread is that people do not like Wiggins or Sky and so are finding post hoc rationalizations for their emotion-driven sentiments. Contemporary decision theorists would be proud.

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

Nothing has changed about the reasons why I would never dope. In fact, the reasons why I would never use drugs have become more important. It comes down to my family, and the life I have built for myself and how I would feel about living with the possibility of getting caught.

If I doped I would potentially stand to lose everything. It's a long list. My reputation, my livelihood, my marriage, my family, my house. Everything I have achieved, my Olympic medals, my world titles, the CBE I was given. I would have to take my children to the school gates in a small Lancashire village with everyone looking at me, knowing I had cheated, knowing I had, perhaps, won the Tour de France, but then been caught.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2012/jul/13/bradley-wiggins-dope-drugs

THAT'S the reason you don't dope? It's not a moral stance? It's not because you feel a dope-fueled "achievement" is hollow and meaningless, but because you might get caught?

Great piece indeed. Very revealing.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

In the interest of balance, both Wiggins and Evans were dominant in other disciplines in their younger years, so neither of them came on strong at a later age, just changed emphasis, still had the engines. Just saying!

Yop, as Pharmstrong mutated from 1-Day-Classics-Rider to CG-Rider...

I just wait for the day when Kittel becomes TdF-Contender. In 4 years it should be time (he´s 28 then).

 

[Bonkstrong]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2012/jul/13/bradley-wiggins-dope-drugs

THAT'S the reason you don't dope? It's not a moral stance? It's not because you feel a dope-fueled "achievement" is hollow and meaningless, but because you might get caught?

Great piece indeed. Very revealing.

WOW, just WOW!!

How did you miss the moral stance there? If he doped it would not only have a detrimental effect on him but on his family, everyone that he's worked with, his kids, his coach, everyone. If he doped it would be a selfish act that’s morally wrong on all levels.

Apart from it showing that you are incapable of reading correctly or that have tried to spin it to your own agenda, what exactly is "revealing" about that article??

 

[Grand Tourist]

WOW, just WOW!!

How did you miss the moral stance there? If he doped it would not only have a detrimental effect on him but on his family, everyone that he's worked with, his kids, his coach, everyone. If he doped it would be a selfish act that’s morally wrong on all levels.

Apart from it showing that you are incapable of reading correctly or that have tried to spin it to your own agenda, what exactly is "revealing" about that article??

I agree - it's not the 'smoking gun' that gives us a 'killer' insight into the Wiggins 'cheating' psyche. He's not saying anything I wouldn't say in his shoes.

That being said I'm damned sure Wiggins and his mountain support crew are 'at it'.

 

[180mmCrank]

I believe Wiggins is clean and this is why...

"...I come to professional road racing from a different background to a lot of guys. There is a different culture in British cycling. Britain is a country where doping is not morally acceptable. I was born in Belgium but I grew up in the British environment, with the Olympic side of the sport as well as the Tour de France. I don't care what people say, the attitude to doping in the UK is different to in Italy or France maybe, where a rider like Richard Virenque can dope, be caught, be banned, come back and be a national hero..."

I am not saying that no one in the UK would dope ... but the attitude to doping is different... just look at David Millar and compare his 'doping' journey to other cyclists.

Read the article - it's not a press release (well it is ... ) but it's what he thinks not some PR person. This represents exactly how a british Olympic athlete thinks ... I should know I was one (twice!). I raced against dopers (East Germans and East Europeans) and was beaten by them and managed to beat them - with hard work and a little bit of talent.

I don't feel the need to persuade anyone that he is or isnt clean ... I think it would drive my nuts if I tried ... but I do think that people should at least know that there are reasons to believe.

Just saying

T

 

[Zam_Olyas]

British are great **** again ... A former national team captain can say "**** off, **** off, yeah, yeah and you ****ing black ****, ****ing knobhead" and not be found guilty of racism by a court.

 

[Grand Tourist]

I believe Wiggins is clean and this is why...

"...I come to professional road racing from a different background to a lot of guys. There is a different culture in British cycling. Britain is a country where doping is not morally acceptable. I was born in Belgium but I grew up in the British environment, with the Olympic side of the sport as well as the Tour de France. I don't care what people say, the attitude to doping in the UK is different to in Italy or France maybe, where a rider like Richard Virenque can dope, be caught, be banned, come back and be a national hero..."

I am not saying that no one in the UK would dope ... but the attitude to doping is different... just look at David Millar and compare his 'doping' journey to other cyclists.

Read the article - it's not a press release (well it is ... ) but it's what he thinks not some PR person. This represents exactly how a british Olympic athlete thinks ... I should know I was one (twice!). I raced against dopers (East Germans and East Europeans) and was beaten by them and managed to beat them - with hard work and a little bit of talent.

I don't feel the need to persuade anyone that he is or isnt clean ... I think it would drive my nuts if I tried ... but I do think that people should at least know that there are reasons to believe.

Just saying

T

In other words 'johnny foreigner' may juice but never a plucky cheeky chappy from Kilburn What a load of old cobblers.

Even Robert Millar got popped for Testosterone. Less said about Tommy S, the other Millar & Yates the better

 

[thehog]

I believe Wiggins is clean and this is why...

"...I come to professional road racing from a different background to a lot of guys. There is a different culture in British cycling. Britain is a country where doping is not morally acceptable. I was born in Belgium but I grew up in the British environment, with the Olympic side of the sport as well as the Tour de France. I don't care what people say, the attitude to doping in the UK is different to in Italy or France maybe, where a rider like Richard Virenque can dope, be caught, be banned, come back and be a national hero..."

I am not saying that no one in the UK would dope ... but the attitude to doping is different... just look at David Millar and compare his 'doping' journey to other cyclists.

Read the article - it's not a press release (well it is ... ) but it's what he thinks not some PR person. This represents exactly how a british Olympic athlete thinks ... I should know I was one (twice!). I raced against dopers (East Germans and East Europeans) and was beaten by them and managed to beat them - with hard work and a little bit of talent.

I don't feel the need to persuade anyone that he is or isnt clean ... I think it would drive my nuts if I tried ... but I do think that people should at least know that there are reasons to believe.

Just saying

T

I would agree. On its own it's a nicely written piece. But the French argument doesn't wash. Bringing out then Virenquie argument again and again is tired. The French have done more than any other cycling nation in regards to drugs. It's not like Virenque came back without hassle. He was forced to admit, he cried a lot and faced a tremendous amount of acrimony. It wasn't until actually confessed that he became a hero again. A little like David Miller to be honest. There is no difference between Britan and France on this matter. Look at Italy with Pantani or Basso. They didn't accept doping. Basso could only come back and be accepted once he admitted.

I don't think it's appropriate to prey on nationalism as a way of dancing around the doping question. We've heard it all before.

 

[180mmCrank]

In other words 'johnny foreigner' may juice but never a plucky cheeky chappy from Kilburn What a load of old cobblers.

Even Robert Millar got popped for Testosterone. Less said about Tommy S, the other Millar & Yates the better

We are going to have our opinions and that's fine - in fact it what makes this kind of conversation important.

AND there are important differences in attitudes across different cultures ... it's not about better or worse ... but it is important if people really want to undertand motivations.

T

 

[armchairclimber]

Pretty direct from "an ex-doper" there. Wiggins, Froome, Cav and he are clean.

Conclusive proof that they're all doping I should imagine.

 

[will10]

lol. I'm not going to take Millar's word as gospel but I'm not sure that statement qualifies as conclusive proof FFS.

 

[LaFlorecita]

If he doped it would not only have a detrimental effect on him but on his family, everyone that he's worked with, his kids, his coach, everyone.

I don't understand, this counts for any other cyclist right?

 

[Machu Picchu]

Pretty direct from "an ex-doper" there. Wiggins, Froome, Cav and he are clean.

Conclusive proof that they're all doping I should imagine.

A confirmed doper just said "me and my friends are clean", how much faith do you expect people to have in those words?

 

[thehog]

Italy goes easy on its dopers. So much so one died alone in a hotel room slowly going mad.

Italy is so easy on its dopers compared to Britain.

 

[Machu Picchu]

I don't understand, this counts for any other cyclist right?

No, only the british, we care about our family and friends unlike you foreigners

 

[djlovesyou]

I don't understand, this counts for any other cyclist right?

The difference is cultural. You only have to be linked with drugs in the UK and that's it. Dwain Chambers will never be accepted by the general sporting public, even Christine Ohorogou (who had a ban for whereabouts) has so much less support than an Olympic Champion in athletics would normally get. If Wiggins got caught, every report about him for the rest of his life from the British press would start with something that clarifies him as a former doper, whatever the story was about.

In Spain and plenty of other places, dopers are more or less always welcomed back by the public and are usually seen as victims of the system rather than the cheats that they actually are.

 

[Bonkstrong]

I don't understand, this counts for any other cyclist right?

Yes, but he's saying he values them more than winning if it means he has to dope to do so. Not everybody makes the same choice.