Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[simoni]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2012/jul/13/bradley-wiggins-dope-drugs

THAT'S the reason you don't dope? It's not a moral stance? It's not because you feel a dope-fueled "achievement" is hollow and meaningless, but because you might get caught?

Great piece indeed. Very revealing.

So not doping isn't enough then. He has to REALLY mean it?!

 

[armchairclimber]

I've been around long enough to see US Postal and plenty else. I thought they were doping at the time.

I have no time at all for SKY as a brand and am a bit queasy about their ruthless approach to success...I can say with absolute certainty though, that they are clean as a team. These performances are down to having the best preparation....and that doesn't involve "juice".

They are self-policing rigorously. They are 100% focused upon winning the tour with Wiggins and have spent a lot of money and effort to achieve that goal....doping would actually be counter-productive.

They know full well that they would be caught now.

 

[Square-pedaller]

The simplest explanation for this thread is that people do not like Wiggins or Sky and so are finding post hoc rationalizations for their emotion-driven sentiments.

I'm British. I have watched the Tour and read a fair amount about cycling for a good few years. I was looking forward to watching Sky do well at the Tour. I'm now one of the people who has reservations about Sky, and I'm here because I'm sad and embarrassed.

If I was doing what you suggest, I would be one of the people who would be defending Wiggins and Sky.

I'm sure you sincerely hold your views, just as those who think otherwise hold theirs. But stick to arguing your case and cut out the amateur psychology.

 

[BroDeal]

f I doped I would potentially stand to lose everything. It's a long list. My reputation, my livelihood, my marriage, my family, my house. Everything I have achieved, my Olympic medals, my world titles, the CBE I was given. I would have to take my children to the school gates in a small Lancashire village with everyone looking at me, knowing I had cheated, knowing I had, perhaps, won the Tour de France, but then been caught.

There is nothing precluding him from moving somewhere else to watch the telly while sitting on a mound of cash. There might be a place next to Armstrong's in Colorado. I'm sure the two would get along famously.

 

[Square-pedaller]

I believe Wiggins is clean and this is why...

"...the attitude to doping in the UK is different to in Italy or France maybe, where a rider like Richard Virenque can dope, be caught, be banned, come back and be a national hero..."

This stuff about Virenque being a national hero is a myth. To many of the French he's a laughing stock. He was lampooned umercifully on a TV show when he held out for ages, and then made a tearful admission expecting people's sympathy.

I am not saying that no one in the UK would dope ...

Of course he isn't because David Millar wrecked the 'British cyclists don't dope' argument.

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

Yes, fearing you might get caught if you dope seems like a rather weak reason to stay clean. I think there's a good chance you can be convinced it's not gonna happen.

 

[Machu Picchu]

...I can say with absolute certainty though, that they are clean as a team...

Please tell us more, are you involved with the team?

 

[The Chicken]

I've been around long enough to see US Postal and plenty else. I thought they were doping at the time.

I have no time at all for SKY as a brand and am a bit queasy about their ruthless approach to success...I can say with absolute certainty though, that they are clean as a team. These performances are down to having the best preparation....and that doesn't involve "juice".

They are self-policing rigorously. They are 100% focused upon winning the tour with Wiggins and have spent a lot of money and effort to achieve that goal....doping would actually be counter-productive.

They know full well that they would be caught now.

..............

 

[Cerberus]

vI've been around long enough to see US Postal and plenty else. I thought they were doping at the time.

I have no time at all for SKY as a brand and am a bit queasy about their ruthless approach to success...I can say with absolute certainty though, that they are clean as a team. These performances are down to having the best preparation....and that doesn't involve "juice".[/QUOTE]
Well I for one welcome having someone with such intricate knowledge about the team here, though I do think refering to Sky in the third person is a bit dishonest since you're clearly a DS or rider on the team.

They are self-policing rigorously. They are 100% focused upon winning the tour with Wiggins and have spent a lot of money and effort to achieve that goal....doping would actually be counter-productive.

Actually doping has historically been extremely productive for people who want to win the Tour. I Armstrong goes down the're have been a 12 year stretch from 1996 forward of Tour winners who have all been convicted of doping.

They know full well that they would be caught now.

Ah well I guess you insider knowledge of team Sky extends to the bio-passport as well, I don't suppose you could tell us in what capacity you work?

 

[Square-pedaller]

...I can say with absolute certainty though, that they are clean as a team...

They are self-policing rigorously...

They know full well that they would be caught now...

How can you say with absolute certainty. You can't. Claiming that you can reduces your credibility in other claims.

Policing may be rigorous, but I don't know of any policing that's 100% successful in the long term.

Why do they know they'd be caught? I thought that there were doping substances that are still undetectable (HGH?)?

 

[hrotha]

So not doping isn't enough then. He has to REALLY mean it?!

Well, yes. Because if he doesn't dope solely because of the repercussions of getting caught, then he'll dope, because most dopers manage to avoid testing positive.

You know who was terrified of testing positive? Jörg Jaksche.

 

[Normandy]

I love one of the comments:

"The real strength of Bradley Wiggins is that he can write, upload, and publish this while riding at the head of the peloton in Stage 12. Now that's skill. Not even a typo!"

Equally is interesting is that there are 7 pages of comments almost all pro wiggins, pro sky, and many of which think Wiggins actually wrote the article himself!

I frequently read Guardian on a variety of subjects for work, many on more important subjects than cycling, and I have never seen so many similarly worded comments from so many people. I think there are lot of Team GB/Sky PR team who have frantically registered in order to post so many pro Sky comments. I cannot beleive the British public is as niave as those comments make out.

 

[Bill Murray]

Audio of Wiggins from after today's stage talking about the article he wrote on doping.

http://soundcloud.com/cycling-central/tour-de-france-stage-12

 

[badboygolf16v]

I cannot beleive the British public is as niave as those comments make out.

You're wrong I'm afraid. There are plenty of naive and ill-informed people in the UK.

The worst people are cyclists who watch the Tour but don't follow the sport. A lot of them still think Armstrong's clean. A blood bag would have to fall out of Brad's jersey for them to believe he had doped. Even then some of them would justify it.

Most of the general public just aren't interested though, understandably. There are plenty of other things to stay up to speed on than doping in cycling.

 

[maxmartin]

Doping or Non-doping, legit or Non-legit
Whatever training methods SKY is using, or whatever stuff SKY is using, eating, injecting, my question is how long do you guys think peloton can catch up? It's not like SKY can keep their secrets forever. Can we see the same massive improvement from other teams in next year tour?

 

[Darryl Webster]

The " the Brits don't dope " myth is absolute garbage and always has been.
What is true is mostly its been individuals . That,s what I,ve been eye witness to but I concede its over twenty years ago..but on two occasions did involve a certain current top level DS and a current domestic Team manager. The DS being very high profile and never having had a positive during his riding days. Has that changed?..I don't know for certain, none of us do. But just as my days were 20 years years ago and peeps claimed clean then ,20 years prior to that we had Tom Simpson,s death on Ventoux.
From 3 separate sources all independent of each other I've had info that indicates probability of a team program.
Just as with most every allegation we ever hear I have zero proof and can only take what I'm told at face value and I and wont disclose names or sources.
As I,ve said before on this thread of course I want Sky/ BC to be clean and not for any kind of patriotic reasons ( I'm proud not to have a patriotic bone in my body ) but purely because , like I,m sure most all of us here I want a clean sport regardless of nationality. Sadly I,ve zero confidence were getting that.
No doubt some will consider my remarks slurs from an old has been etc....I,ve had every kinda jibe thrown at me many times , especially when I voiced my certainty regards Pharmstrong before his comeback . Its water of a ducks back and TBH history aint on the the side of those who reckon were in a new, PED free era is it.

 

[180mmCrank]

Audio of Wiggins from after today's stage talking about the article he wrote on doping.

http://soundcloud.com/cycling-central/tour-de-france-stage-12

Great post

People can make of it what they like but listen to the guy speak. His words are clear and very authentic ... He is no manufactured PR personality ... It's quite refreshing. This is the voice of an honest guy not just someone reading from a script. IMHO as always.

I will eat my hat / shirt whatever if this guy is doping. I don't believe it.

AND people can over simplify national difference, find exceptions and examples that blur or exaggerate national difference but the fact is there are differences and attitudes to things like doping are subtly different. This is not about saying one country is hard or soft on doping but the way it shows up for individuals is subtly different ... It is material when trying to understand motivation.

All good . People have every right and plenty of reason to not believe the guy is clean ... I get it.

T

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Pretty direct from "an ex-doper" there. Wiggins, Froome, Cav and he are clean.

Conclusive proof that they're all doping I should imagine.

Davide Rebellin called his Olympic medal "a victory for clean cycling". Did you believe him?

Did you pay up to Floyd Landis' fund?

Bernhard Kohl celebrated Riccò's positive with his team, glad to see CERA testable. He fooled some of his own teammates (who noted Schumacher's behaviour being more withdrawn). He fooled Paul Kimmage. Did he fool you?

I've been around long enough to see US Postal and plenty else. I thought they were doping at the time.

I have no time at all for SKY as a brand and am a bit queasy about their ruthless approach to success...I can say with absolute certainty though, that they are clean as a team. These performances are down to having the best preparation....and that doesn't involve "juice".

They are self-policing rigorously. They are 100% focused upon winning the tour with Wiggins and have spent a lot of money and effort to achieve that goal....doping would actually be counter-productive.

They know full well that they would be caught now.

Unless they had something that wasn't being tested for yet.

 

[thehog]

The " the Brits don't dope " myth is absolute garbage and always has been.
What is true is mostly its been individuals . That,s what I,ve been eye witness to but I concede its over twenty years ago..but on two occasions did involve a certain current top level DS and a current domestic Team manager. The DS being very high profile and never having had a positive during his riding days. Has that changed?..I don't know for certain, none of us do. But just as my days were 20 years years ago and peeps claimed clean then ,20 years prior to that we had Tom Simpson,s death on Ventoux.
From 3 separate sources all independent of each other I've had info that indicates probability of a team program.
Just as with most every allegation we ever hear I have zero proof and can only take what I'm told at face value and I and wont disclose names or sources.
As I,ve said before on this thread of course I want Sky/ BC to be clean and not for any kind of patriotic reasons ( I'm proud not to have a patriotic bone in my body ) but purely because , like I,m sure most all of us here I want a clean sport regardless of nationality. Sadly I,ve zero confidence were getting that.
No doubt some will consider my remarks slurs from an old has been etc....I,ve had every kinda jibe thrown at me many times , especially when I voiced my certainty regards Pharmstrong before his comeback . Its water of a ducks back and TBH history aint on the the side of those who reckon were in a new, PED free era is it.

Thanks Daryl. Always appreciate your posts. I would agree with you on all points.

I still maintain as sincere as Bradley sounds I'm sure he doesn't want to lose it all. Thats a given.

But he also knows that he wouldn't be challenging for the win if he wasn't doping. He's been on both sides and he knows what it takes. Yes you still have to train hard and work to win but the doping program at a team level is the difference it takes.

In 1998 before Armstrong won the Tour he sounded just an genuine as Wiggins did. He really did. There are several youTubes of Lance sounding very humble about his disease and about cycling. But years in the sport hardens you and you know what it takes to win.

I see exactly the same occurring here. It may take several years but we'll eventually learn what went on at Sky.

 

[TheEnoculator]

I'm glad that Wiggo came out and re-confirmed his stance. It's important to hear it from him, especially with the Cofidis raid.

 

[imaz52]

In 1998 before Armstrong won the Tour he sounded just an genuine as Wiggins did. He really did. There are several youTubes of Lance sounding very humble about his disease and about cycling. But years in the sport hardens you and you know what it takes to win.

I see exactly the same occurring here. It may take several years but we'll eventually learn what went on at Sky.

Very much agree, sooner or later new tests will evolve and the shìt will finally hit the fan as regards SKY albeit with delayed effect.

 

[taiwan]

Evans attacked and blew and was outlasted by TJVG, or did you miss that? He had a terrible day, nothing more to it. He's had bad days before with the same result - that doesn't make the Sky lot superior climbers over a 3 week period.

And Schleck is obviously in prime climbing form...


So are we saying that a PED'd up sky team blew a Top-form Evans to bits, or did a team in great form crack someone on a bad day?

You're simply playing down their climbing strength. Considering that on the MTFs so far, only a handful have been able to stay with them and noone has been able to make an attack stick, yes they're climbing well. That the whole rest of the field is off form is a lot to swallow and I'm not. You're arguing that nothing remarkable is happening, but people are independently reacting with surprise ti what they're seeing.

 

[maxmartin]

Very much agree, sooner or later new tests will evolve and the shìt will finally hit the fan as regards SKY albeit with delayed effect.

it is always like that, a small handful people started and got away with it, then more and more people in the peloton would do the same thing to achieve the result. Then later it just became the open secret. A few years later when technology caught up, testing became reliable. Those people will face charges, law suits and the reputation of the sports would be damages. Then after a few quiet years, a new cycle will begin unfortunately.

 

[Franklin]

"I don't care what people say, the attitude to doping in the UK is different to in Italy or France maybe, where a rider like Richard Virenque can dope, be caught, be banned, come back and be a national hero..."

I am not saying that no one in the UK would dope ... but the attitude to doping is different... just look at David Millar and compare his 'doping' journey to other cyclists

BUHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Linford Christie

/idiotic selfrightuous argument.

 

[Bill Murray]

Great post

People can make of it what they like but listen to the guy speak. His words are clear and very authentic ... He is no manufactured PR personality ... It's quite refreshing. This is the voice of an honest guy not just someone reading from a script. IMHO as always.

I will eat my hat / shirt whatever if this guy is doping. I don't believe it.

AND people can over simplify national difference, find exceptions and examples that blur or exaggerate national difference but the fact is there are differences and attitudes to things like doping are subtly different. This is not about saying one country is hard or soft on doping but the way it shows up for individuals is subtly different ... It is material when trying to understand motivation.

All good . People have every right and plenty of reason to not believe the guy is clean ... I get it.

T

I liked his comments. He seems to be more rational about it now.