Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Zam_Olyas]

- Nice acronym

(cough, I used to work with Cable & Wireless, cough)

Since the powers that be clamp down on those 2 words..you have to innovate and use marginal gains like team sky

 

[The Hitch]

Dwain Chambers and Christine Ohorogou made the British Olympic team. So what?

My standpoint is that getting caught for doping as a Brit carries a far worse penalty than getting caught for doping as a Spaniard.

You can keep coming at me with interesting facts about team selection all you want, it doesn't change the fact that the above is very true.

if you say so

 

[armchairclimber]

Climbing power outputs are normal for good riders, not for someone who sucked like Wiggins until they suddenly were able to climb and became Armstrongs biggest fanboy on the same day.

And Wiggins is himself a **** for all the doping accusations he made (including all the people that were to win the next 6 tdfs even though he didnt know who they would be) and that should hang over him so long as he takes the - now that its me at the top you are no longer allowed to accuse winners of doping, stance.

You're an old hand it this. Either you are being one eyed or you have no idea about physiology and sports science. A cyclist with Wiggins' background can be trained...with difficulty and hard graft...to be a good climber. There's no mystery to it and it certainly doesn't need to involve drugs.

You might not like him for historical reasons...I find him objectionable myself, but it doesn't mean that he's doping. He isn't.

 

[Bonkstrong]

You're simply playing down their climbing strength. Considering that on the MTFs so far, only a handful have been able to stay with them and no-one has been able to make an attack stick, yes they're climbing well. That the whole rest of the field is off form is a lot to swallow and I'm not. You're arguing that nothing remarkable is happening, but people are independently reacting with surprise ti what they're seeing.

I'm not playing it down, I think their climbing strength is amazing. But I don't think it's PED induced to the USPS level, I think they've naturally reached a level where they can defend against attacks by keeping the tempo high in the first place and force their rivals to go on solo attacks that, from what we've seen, are unsustainable as predominantly solo efforts

I never said the whole field is off-form, I said Evans had a bad day and Schleck isn't going well. But what is obvious is that the other teams have suffered big hits to their big players and there is very little impetus to get on the front and drag back breaks. None of the breaks have had threats in them and as we've seen today the breaks can go and win by 10 minutes.


I'm surprised as well, I think it's a remarkable performance. But weighing up all the arguments I think it leans towards a non PED performance. It's when you get some of the "I can't watch the tour anymore thanks to SKY", "It's a team wide super-programme", "We've gone backwards 20 years", "The cancer has returned" comments I feel they are over dramatized to the point of utter disbelief.

I'm the first to admit Froome is setting off alarm bells, but I think the team as a whole aren't pushing the boundaries of super-human performance. What we see on TV looks like domination, but it's not as clean/dirty cut as people are making out.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

I'm the first to admit Froome is setting off alarm bells, but I think the team as a whole aren't pushing the boundaries of super-human performance. What we see on TV looks like domination, but it's not as clean/dirty cut as people are making out.

But, the point has constantly been, you don't have to be super-human today. Tighter and better controls mean that we don't have the doping arms race we had in the 90s. When the amount that people can get away with is so much less, you can still dope and turn yourself from a guy who never developed on that small thimbleful of talent they showed back in 2008 into a guy who finishes on the podium of the Tour de France without having to worry about wearing out your brakepads on the switchbacks when climbing.

The thing is, there's a continuum from 'endless peaking' to 'specific superpeaking'. Most riders are somewhere along this. Being at either extreme generates suspicion on the basis that they are right on the fringes of a standard normal distribution bell curve. Wiggins, Porte and Rogers are at one extreme (they haven't dropped form for a minute since February), while Froome is at the complete opposite (he hasn't produced the results you would expect of an even moderately talented clean rider for most of the last four years, but when the biggest events come up he's the best rider in the field).

Wiggins' transformation from autobus-minded guy who waits all race for the ITT where he comes 5th into best TTer in the field and comfortable GC leader may beggar belief, but we're used to him being up at the front now. He has won every TT longer than 9km that he's entered this year, and been 2nd in every TT shorter than that bar one (Romandie). Porte's 2012 may be a logical progression from his 2010... if we fabricate a 2011 that matches the upward curve. He was losing 4 minutes or so on every mountain stage in 2010 to the same people he is putting out the back now. That would make more sense if he hadn't been in the bus last year. Rogers and Froome, on the other hand... one past-it rider who's never performed at anything like this level outside of at a team with an organised doping program, and one who after two years of achieving nothing caught a disease that miraculously clears up only when Grand Tours are about to start, then infects you again to protect you from any expectation that you continue at that level... if they're not doping, then the entire péloton has screwed up its preparation on an unprecedented scale.

 

[college]

It is a shame how much heat teamSky get from so many cycling fans. These guys Froome and Wiggo are the real deal. Enjoy it.

 

[maltiv]

Rogers and Froome, on the other hand... one past-it rider who's never performed at anything like this level outside of at a team with an organised doping program, and one who after two years of achieving nothing caught a disease that miraculously clears up only when Grand Tours are about to start, then infects you again to protect you from any expectation that you continue at that level... if they're not doping, then the entire péloton has screwed up its preparation on an unprecedented scale.

Even with mysterious blood diseases, Froome's form this year has been a lot more consistent than Andy Schleck's typical form curve (Not that it justifies anything, just pointing it out).

 

[xcleigh]

I've had a good read of page after page of supposition, guess work, jumping to (some pretty whacky and wild) conclusions and what appears to be healthy doses of libel directed towards team Sky. All of it based on some sort of perceived 'dominance' way beyond comprehension and not seen since good 'ol USPS. But I don't see it myself. Domestiques putting the hurt on for relatively short and manageable time periods (for a well trained pro) and then dropping away is pretty standard practice as far as I can tell from watching 25 odd Tour De France editions. I'm afraid until proven otherwise (yep cold hard facts that can be put up for scrutiny) I'll be a supporter of Wiggins and his Sky team. Keep it up lads

 

[cycladianpirate]

It is a shame how much heat teamSky get from so many cycling fans. These guys Froome and Wiggo are the real deal. Enjoy it.

You are on the wrong forum.... Enjoyment is not welcomed here.

 

[therhodeo]

It is a shame how much heat teamSky get from so many cycling fans. These guys Froome and Wiggo are the real deal. Enjoy it.

Obviously based on your avatar and sig you're a great judge of who is or isn't the real deal.

 

[DominicDecoco]

I've had a good read of page after page of supposition, guess work, jumping to (some pretty whacky and wild) conclusions and what appears to be healthy doses of libel directed towards team Sky. All of it based on some sort of perceived 'dominance' way beyond comprehension and not seen since good 'ol USPS. But I don't see it myself. Domestiques putting the hurt on for relatively short and manageable time periods (for a well trained pro) and then dropping away is pretty standard practice as far as I can tell from watching 25 odd Tour De France editions. I'm afraid until proven otherwise (yep cold hard facts that can be put up for scrutiny) I'll be a supporter of Wiggins and his Sky team. Keep it up lads

Michael Rogers and Porte says hi.

 

[gingerwallaceafro]

Climbing power outputs are normal for good riders, not for someone who sucked like Wiggins until they suddenly were able to climb and became Armstrongs biggest fanboy on the same day.

And Wiggins is himself a **** for all the doping accusations he made (including all the people that were to win the next 6 tdfs even though he didnt know who they would be) and that should hang over him so long as he takes the - now that its me at the top you are no longer allowed to accuse winners of doping, stance.

God Hitch, you're sooo badass!

 

[Lanark]

I've had a good read of page after page of supposition, guess work, jumping to (some pretty whacky and wild) conclusions and what appears to be healthy doses of libel directed towards team Sky. All of it based on some sort of perceived 'dominance' way beyond comprehension and not seen since good 'ol USPS. But I don't see it myself. Domestiques putting the hurt on for relatively short and manageable time periods (for a well trained pro) and then dropping away is pretty standard practice as far as I can tell from watching 25 odd Tour De France editions. I'm afraid until proven otherwise (yep cold hard facts that can be put up for scrutiny) I'll be a supporter of Wiggins and his Sky team. Keep it up lads

Standard practice, performed by doped riders during those 25 years.

 

[xcleigh]

Standard practice, performed by doped riders during those 25 years.

So your supposition is that every rider that has ridden strongly at the front of the peleton up a mountain or two of the past 25 years has doped? Good work.
Notice how I like the word supposition, 95%(by the way that is also a guess) of the posters on here need to look that one up.

 

[gingerwallaceafro]

Standard practice, performed by doped riders during those 25 years.

That doesn't mean anything.

 

[will10]

I've had a good read of page after page of supposition, guess work, jumping to (some pretty whacky and wild) conclusions and what appears to be healthy doses of libel directed towards team Sky. All of it based on some sort of perceived 'dominance' way beyond comprehension and not seen since good 'ol USPS. But I don't see it myself. Domestiques putting the hurt on for relatively short and manageable time periods (for a well trained pro) and then dropping away is pretty standard practice as far as I can tell from watching 25 odd Tour De France editions. I'm afraid until proven otherwise (yep cold hard facts that can be put up for scrutiny) I'll be a supporter of Wiggins and his Sky team. Keep it up lads

 

[The Tibetan Hat]

I've had a good read of page after page of supposition, guess work, jumping to (some pretty whacky and wild) conclusions and what appears to be healthy doses of libel directed towards team Sky. All of it based on some sort of perceived 'dominance' way beyond comprehension and not seen since good 'ol USPS. But I don't see it myself. Domestiques putting the hurt on for relatively short and manageable time periods (for a well trained pro) and then dropping away is pretty standard practice as far as I can tell from watching 25 odd Tour De France editions. I'm afraid until proven otherwise (yep cold hard facts that can be put up for scrutiny) I'll be a supporter of Wiggins and his Sky team. Keep it up lads

Could it also be that the field is pretty weak so far as challengers to Wiggins and Sky go? Cadel was the oldest post-war TdF winner last year, so perhaps his powers always likely to decline, so too the whole Basso, Leipy, Menchov, Kloden generation, then the Schleck boys are either busy crashing or moping, same goes for Gesink, plenty of other contenders have crashed out and apart from the still developing talents of guys like Molema, all that really leaves is Nibbles and Van den Broeck who have shown anything like decent form.
If a money-bags outfit like Sky who've signed a team of genuinely talented riders as genuine super-domestiques to support a rider the perfect age and vintage to win a Grand Tour wasn't dominating there'd be something wrong, and we probably think they must be losing to a bunch of dopers.

 

[armchairclimber]

Could someone explain to me the inconsistency in The Hitch's performance. Some cracking stage profiles and apposite analysis of performance, then he has dog days where he just talks shyte.
I wouldn't believe single word the two faced, lying hypocrite says.

 

[thehog]

Bravo! Says it all really.

 

[Zam_Olyas]

Could someone explain to me the inconsistency in The Hitch's performance. Some cracking stage profiles and apposite analysis of performance, then he has dog days where he just talks shyte.
I wouldn't believe single word the two faced, lying hypocrite says.

So we start attacking poster now?

 

[Bala Verde]

What's the contract situation at SKY for the TdF squad?

101 WIGGINS Bradley GBR (2013)
102 BOASSON HAGEN Edvald NOR (2014)
103 CAVENDISH Mark GBR
104 EISEL Bernhard AUT
105 FROOME Christopher GBR (2014)
106 KNEES Christian GER (2012)
107 PORTE Richie AUS (2012)
108 ROGERS Michael AUS (2012)
109 SIVTSOV Kanstantsin BLR (2012)

Fun quote from roger though:

November 2010

“Winning the Tour, that takes time. You can’t just rock up to the Tour and win it. It’s a thing that takes time and it’s such a hard race to perform well in. It might take a couple of years to get to that stage. It’s no easy feat but it’s something we’ll work on and there’s no reason why we can’t do it.”

 

[Libertine Seguros]

If a money-bags outfit like Sky who've signed a team of genuinely talented riders as genuine super-domestiques to support a rider the perfect age and vintage to win a Grand Tour wasn't dominating there'd be something wrong, and we probably think they must be losing to a bunch of dopers.

So you're saying if Sky had fewer than 4 riders in the last 10, then this would be evidence that everybody else was doping? Sky are just that much better? Mick Rogers is just THAT genuinely talented, he's just coincidentally never shown it since leaving a team with an organised doping program?

If Sky weren't competitive at all, we'd be thinking something was wrong. But that could be explained away with "they ballsed up their preparation". But there's a difference between "being competitive" and "blowing away all competitors thanks to some very suspicious domestiques", and people are contending that there's something wrong with them being as dominant as they are, too.

 

[DominicDecoco]

So we start attacking poster now?

Just like when you insulted me personally in the football thread?

 

[Dalakhani]

Remember the 2010 UCI "suspicious list" of Tour riders?

Wiggins got 5/10 (same as Contador).

From six to ten, the circumstantial evidence of possible doping was "overwhelming".

Knees got 6/10
Rogers 7/10

(Porte and Froome weren't in the race.)

Just thought I'd bring this up...

 

[Zam_Olyas]

Just like when you insulted me personally in the football thread?

Yes, when you talk **** about a country.