Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[bobbins]

Froome has not been in a lab over the winter! Sky really do push the BS about sports science and marginal gains to the max.

They have lab results from pre Vuelta though. Why not share these?

 

[EnacheV]

yeah like what happened with htc

but this is not htc, like there is a difference between prospering Movistar and dead Euskaltel

imo bottom point DB doesn't have to worry to much about Sky, he won't be poor if they pull the plug.

 

[MatParker117]

yeah like what happened with htc

Virgin would be all over it in seconds, Branson is cycling mad.

 

[BYOP88]

but this is not htc, like there is a difference between prospering Movistar and dead Euskaltel

imo bottom point DB doesn't have to worry to much about Sky, he won't be poor if they pull the plug.

Didn't the Spanish government give Telefónica a "nice deal" for saving the team(pretty sure I read that around the time they took over the team).

Are you Brailsford's accountant?

 

[gooner]

The ZTP and the 'transparency' would be great if they were a clean team who didn't hire dodgy staff and dirty riders and actually was transparent. That would be truly great.

They don't get flack because of the ZTP alone. It's because they so hard try to appear clean while being the most dodgy/dirty team of all.

It'd ofc be completely different if they actually were clean...

You clearly didn't get the point in my post.

It's like saying Sky's biggest mistake was they talked about transparency and ZTP when it may have been better if they were more like Astana, BMC and Saxo. Would they have got an easier ride that way or more appropriately should they still get an easier ride if this was the case? I think it's a ridiculous mindset.

Could you answer the question above?

 

[Dazed and Confused]

Virgin would be all over it in seconds, Branson is cycling mad.

nah, massive amounts of leverage is needed to pull off that kind of sponsorship again. Sky was ideal.

Maybe a rogue bank in UK, something like RBS.

Anyway get the cost down to Eur10M and perhaps the prospects are good.

 

[thehog]

You clearly didn't get the point in my post.



Could you answer the question above?

I believe you may have missed the 'donkey -> racehorse' theorem.
When Saxo create their own version they won't be getting away with anything.

Saying your clean and being clean are two very different things.

 

[gooner]

I believe you may have missed the 'donkey -> racehorse' theorem.
When Saxo create their own version they won't be getting away with anything.

Saying your clean and being clean are too very different things.

So if Froome had a more steady rise like Contador and still doped, they would have got an easier ride from you.

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

Its funny how Fran Millar gets all upset, even though digger is just an anonymous keyboard warrior and conspiracy theorist.

It's frankly bizarre that she would respond to him at all. Whatever about JV wandering over here and arguing the toss with even our own lunatic fringe, a professional PR person should know better than to get into an exchange with the sort of random anonymous twitter account that won't be convinced even if she agrees to let him live in Froome's back pocket for a year. It's a hiding to nothing and the only result will be to lend extra credibility to the tweeter.

 

[gooner]

It was Sky biggest mistake to talk about ZTP/transparency or whatever they all it when reality suggests otherwise.

Sky with their money and resources, if truly clean, could lead the way here. Imagine if they put some action behind their words? Websites, apps, reports and demonstrate to a many times burnt public that what they do is indeed different.

Like Armstrong. He has a choice. He could have been the leader of change after his recovery from cancer. Imagine if he put all the anger and angst he had into changing the sport? Imagine.

Same goes for Sky. Show me your cards. Instead all I get is David 'butterfly' Walsh. That's it?

Please.

What has Walsh got to do with this?

I got your position.

Look at BMC and Ballan. Who gives a sh!t, that they have him and Och

Dave should have been more like Och.

 

[thehog]

What has Walsh got to do with this?

I got your position.



Dave should have been more like Och.

If you were here to discuss my post then please do.

I offered some very good suggestion on what Sky could do with ZTP etc.

All you do is 'block' and offer nothing positive to contribute.


So you tell me? What could a team like Sky do to win over the skeptics who believe they dope?

 

[BYOP88]

If you were here to discuss my post then please do.

I offered some very good suggestion on what Sky could do with ZTP etc.

All you do is 'block' and offer nothing positive to contribute.


So you tell me? What could a team like Sky do to win over the skeptics who believe they dope?

At the end of the season, they could hold a Q&A in Manchester, one where anyone could attend and ask any question(s)..........oh wait, you mean Dave Brailsford promised one of these already, after the 2012 European road season. Dang!!!!! I must have missed it.

 

[RownhamHill]

If you were here to discuss my post then please do.

I offered some very good suggestion on what Sky could do with ZTP etc.

All you do is 'block' and offer nothing positive to contribute.


So you tell me? What could a team like Sky do to win over the skeptics who believe they dope?

It was a good post thehog, and what extra Sky could bring to the party would be a much more interesting discussion. What have you got in mind in terms of apps and stuff?

That said, the embedded journo route didn't go down that well, nor has the internal audit/monitoring and investigation of their own rider, so I can see why Sky might not be massively motivated on this front, but would be good to generate some ideas for them!

 

[The Hitch]

What about miracle recoveries from badzilla?

Unlike Lance's recovery from cancer (miracle, it was perfectly in line with science), Froome's battle with Bilharzia does have a touch of the supernatural about it, given that it took him about 10 000 % longer than average to get it cured, and managed to win the Tour de France with it.

 

[The Hitch]

Proof? This isn't USP again - there are no miracle recoveries from cancer, there are no soigneurs who heard things, there are no assistants who found things in apartments and were fired, there are no friends who heard things in hospital, there are no steroid positives. Pure pure conjecture by you and everyone else...

The above could just as easily be used to defend Alberto Contador, Riccardo Ricco, Alejandro Valverde, Mario Santamborgio, Mustafa Sayer, and 100's of other dopers.

 

[martinvickers]

Virgin would be all over it in seconds, Branson is cycling mad.

Check what BT Sport did in the Celtic League Rugby - recently signed up for Sky coverage.

They tried to become jersey sponsor to every team in the league - never mind richard, BT sport is the risk to Sky - and why they'll not throw in the towel in a hurry.

 

[BYOP88]

Check what BT Sport did in the Celtic League Rugby - recently signed up for Sky coverage.

They tried to become jersey sponsor to every team in the league - never mind richard, BT sport is the risk to Sky - and why they'll not throw in the towel in a hurry.

Really, that's some crazy *** stuff.

 

[thehog]

It was a good post thehog, and what extra Sky could bring to the party would be a much more interesting discussion. What have you got in mind in terms of apps and stuff?

That said, the embedded journo route didn't go down that well, nor has the internal audit/monitoring and investigation of their own rider, so I can see why Sky might not be massively motivated on this front, but would be good to generate some ideas for them!

Yes and all that we'll open our doors just tell is what you want? Ashenden via Stokes proposed to do his own review. They declined.

The embedded journalist concept was a good one. Problem being the auditor fell in love with the subject. If done properly the auditor would have begun with a set of 'guiding principles' they would 0maintain through the exercise. ie "I have no position on doping of the team but I will hold the view to play the role of sceptic'. That way the final position would be valid. Look at the output; "everything they do is better than the other teams' - Benson asked Walsh, how do you now why the other teams do? - 'you're right, I don't'. Then how can you have that observation and hold that position?

In terms of what Id do; I'll keep to myself as it's part of something else that is being developed. However reporting is key. "Point to the reports". When questions arise, point to the reports. People learn sports and their dynamics, if you can't trust your fans and audience with the data then expect the worst. It can be done because if you're truly are clean you can open the books.

Heano is a great example. Absolutely nobody knows what happened. And still don't know and won't likely know for a very long time. How is that transparency? No one can even figure out who took what test and what the reading was!

Look at Apple. The most secretive company in the world. However their online documentation and API sets are phenomenal. There's so much information on their systems and how they are built and how you can interact with them.

And sorry one edit in bold; the only journalist in all of this to bother Sky and get their knickers in a twist is Digger!

 

[DirtyWorks]

Proof? This isn't USP again -

Yes, ignore the fact that both programs are identically structured. British Cycling is responsible for the success of the pro team. USA Cycling was responsible for the success of Discovery/USPS.

there are no miracle recoveries from cancer,

??? Chris Froome miracle recovery ???

there are no steroid positives..

Ugh. Not the "never tested positive" defense. When Lance's sports fraud was in full swing, there were no positives for the star either. The federation didn't enforce them. How about those 2009 "comeback" samples being red-hot positive and still no sanction. Ask Marion Jones about never testing positive.

Like USPS, riders associated with the program are engaged in doping controversy. (JTL, Henao)

Don't let any facts get in the way of your beliefs!

 

[DirtyWorks]

Look at Apple. The most secretive company in the world. However their online documentation and API sets are phenomenal. There's so much information on their systems and how they are built and how you can interact with them.

Mmm. Let's not use Apple as an analogy, okay? Developing for Apple is quite a bit of black art and the target is constantly moving.

 

[Arnout]

Yes and all that we'll open our doors just tell is what you want? Ashenden via Stokes proposed to do his own review. They declined.

The embedded journalist concept was a good one. Problem being the auditor fell in love with the subject. If done properly the auditor would have begun with a set of 'guiding principles' they would 0maintain through the exercise. ie "I have no position on doping of the team but I will hold the view to play the role of sceptic'. That way the final position would be valid. Look at the output; "everything they do is better than the other teams' - Benson asked Walsh, how do you now why the other teams do? - 'you're right, I don't'. Then how can you have that observation and hold that position?

In terms of what Id do; I'll keep to myself as it's part of something else that is being developed. However reporting is key. "Point to the reports". When questions arise, point to the reports. People learn sports and their dynamics, if you can't trust your fans and audience with the data then expect the worst. It can be done because if you're truly are clean you can open the books.

Heano is a great example. Absolutely nobody knows what happened. And still don't know and won't likely know for a very long time. How is that transparency? No one can even figure out who took what test and what the reading was!

Look at Apple. The most secretive company in the world. However their online documentation and API sets are phenomenal. There's so much information on their systems and how they are built and how you can interact with them.

And sorry one edit in bold; the only journalist in all of this to bother Sky and get their knickers in a twist is Digger!

The best thehog post I've ever read.

 

[gooner]

If you were here to discuss my post then please do.

I offered some very good suggestion on what Sky could do with ZTP etc.

All you do is 'block' and offer nothing positive to contribute.


So you tell me? What could a team like Sky do to win over the skeptics who believe they dope?

Your positive contribution is to say that it's better for the Riis's of this world with the Contadors doped than Froome's big transformation doped. There's a big difference between me and you as I see no difference in the way they should be judged if Sky are up to their eyeballs doping. You're judging people and teams to a different criteria now. You just don't like that it has been pointed out.

For the bolded, I think minds are made up. No matter what they do now, skeptics like you will still point to times hitting doped up performances on AX3 Domaines and Ventoux.

You can't prove cleanliness. Fran Millar is wasting her time engaging with some of the sort on there.

 

[RownhamHill]

The best thehog post I've ever read.

I'm tempted to agree, good post thehog.

Very interested in your reporting idea, in the name of transparency what have got in mind?

 

[Dear Wiggo]

You can't prove cleanliness. Fran Millar is wasting her time engaging with some of the sort on there.

Is "cleanliness" the only PR available to the team?
Are there people who believe what ever the PR person tells them?

 

[thehog]

Your positive contribution is to say that it's better for the Riis's of this world with the Contadors doped than Froome's big transformation doped. There's a big difference between me and you as I see no difference in the way they should be judged if Sky are up to their eyeballs doping. You're judging people and teams to a different criteria now. You just don't like that it has been pointed out.

For the bolded, I think minds are made up. No matter what they do now, skeptics like you will still point to times hitting doped up performances on AX3 Domaines and Ventoux.

You can't prove cleanliness. Fran Millar is wasting her time engaging with some of the sort on there.

You've still offered nothing. And you're a defeatist. You're using the skeptics as an excuse not to contribute what could be done.

And yes skeptics like me will still point to times up aX3, that won't change and nor should it. Because sports lovers since the beginning of time have pointed at the scoreboard and stats to win pub arguments over who's better and why. That's why sport is so great - post match analysis! and you want to remove that? or see it as a bad thing? Seriously?

And the the failing of Sky or the UCI providing a counter or context the speculation will continue.

The the point being Froome rode the time he did; that cannot change. But with context it might be explainable. With more detail, knowledge and learning it might be completely plausible on what occurred. Why should Sky be so afraid to explain?

If Froome truly is clean and he really is an amazing athlete with great talents, then show us. Talent is not a secret. Should be easy to demonstrate. I'm sure he does Ax3 efforts in training all the time. There's data there and reporting which can easily be correlated with lactate and passport readings.

Go on Sky! Lead the way! Show us clean cycling!