Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[the sceptic]

to be fair, the earth being flat is a lot easier to believe than sky being cleans.

 

[Granville57]

to be fair, the earth being flat is a lot easier to believe than sky being cleans.

Be glad it's not. Can you imagine just how many Tours Bradley would win...on a flat earth?!

 

[martinvickers]

Good to see you are not shooting the messenger just because of the message ...

Maybe I could troll you and call you a c**t because I don't agree with what you say. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but personal attacks are not (at least as far as I was aware) what this forum is about ...

Give it time, lad, give it time.

 

[BYOP88]

I wasnt talking about 2012. People on here were saying he wasnt good enough for the 2011 TDF. The fact is in the 2 week period after the TDS and before the TDF he had treatment for Bil - i think thats a pretty good reason not to get picked.

Until Michelle Cound says on a forum when Froome had and didn't have 'badzilla' it didn't happen. You have to admit though that if Froome's had it several times "he's not the sharpest tool in the shed". Because if the drugs can cure it in 7 days and have you back on the bike and destroying all in the Tour 4 months later, if Froome was unleashed in 2012 he'd have 2 Tour wins now. I bet having to use a drug that messes up your bio-passport and therefore renders it useless for observation is a neat pet to have.

 

[Justinr]

I mean this in all sincerity - do you ride a bike?

Yes

I have 2 road bikes and a mountain bike. I've been riding for almost 30 years. I have ridden mainly for pleasure but also raced timetrials. I have ridden steel, 531, alu and carbon - drop bars and TT bars, tubs and clinchers. Whats the problem - you think i dont know about cycling?

 

[Justinr]

Just out of curiosity; What British Sky member are you referring to?

I wasnt - it was everyone else that was saying Froome was ***

 

[Justinr]

I was going to let this slide, as I only just saw the response (this thread is moving way too fast for me! )

HOWEVER...since we are here again.

RE: Aerodynamic improvements.
If you were to put a human being on top of the bike first, most of whatever you imagine you could improve upon would turn out to be pointless. #seatpostbolts

Well quite possibly, but how many people have done the following:

1. Make sure they have the right air pressure in their car tyres
2. Turn the heat down 1 degree at home
3. Drive that little bit further to save 1p a litre on fuel

How much do each of those save? And what about when you add them all up? Over the whole year?

Marginal gains ...

 

[Justinr]

In all fairness to Justinr, the original point he making was in reference to Boardman on the track.


I am enjoying this though.

Thank you i was but at the sametime in the context of UK Cycling and how DB took that philosophy to SKY.

 

[thehog]

3 stages and 1 6th v 3 podiums and a fourth, a tour, a hatful of stage races.

The same? Nope.

I'm sorry, Hog, but this doesn't make a lick of sense.

Well, you're entitled to feel that, Hog, fair enough, but it doesn't make it true.
Actually, lots and lots of people believed in a flat earth. The myth is that Columbus and his crews did. For the record.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_Earth

Sorry, hog, forgive me. couldn't resist.

I admit there is only one Froome. No one has done was he's done. He is beyond words, logic, reason and sensibility. So, yes, I thank you for pointing that out. That was my bad. No one comes close to Froome's rise.

You knew what my point was. When riders rise rapidly, like Froome, like Sella, it's down to dope.

Now if you wish to suspend belief for Froome, I'm happy for you. Clearly you have more faith in a rotten sport than most do. But it's not logic. It's just that, faith. It's good that you can do that. I can't. But I think it's good you can hold that belief.

Flat earth. Sorry, but no one thought the world was flat. Only now those who have some form of 'faith' you know that.

 

[Justinr]

Until Michelle Cound says on a forum when Froome had and didn't have 'badzilla' it didn't happen. You have to admit though that if Froome's had it several times "he's not the sharpest tool in the shed". Because if the drugs can cure it in 7 days and have you back on the bike and destroying all in the Tour 4 months later, if Froome was unleashed in 2012 he'd have 2 Tour wins now. I bet having to use a drug that messes up your bio-passport and therefore renders it useless for observation is a neat pet to have.

That wasnt the point i was making. What people were questioning is why he wasnt picked for the TDF. What I pointed out was that actually as a point of fact he was being treated for bil.

 

[Granville57]

Well quite possibly, but how many people have done the following:

1. Make sure they have the right air pressure in their car tyres
2. Turn the heat down 1 degree at home
3. Drive that little bit further to save 1p a litre on fuel

How much do each of those save? And what about when you add them all up? Over the whole year?

Marginal gains ...

So you're telling us that Sky...

1. Have very efficient team cars
2. Save more on their heating bills than, say, Garmin.
3. Are cheap, and perhaps not very logical (drive further to save fuel).

Marginal brains

(Sky, that is)

 

[BYOP88]

That wasnt the point i was making. What people were questioning is why he wasnt picked for the TDF. What I pointed out was that actually as a point of fact he was being treated for bil.

Wait, how many damn times has he had this 'illness'? pre-2009 until July 2011 and then another bout at the end of 2011/early 2012.


I'd completely forgotten that good old Morris Possoni was employed by Sky. They really do a thorough job when researching the people they employ.


EDIT: Oooops seems Froome and Cound aren't reading from the same page.

Froome about the treatment "Here’s how Froome described Biltricide, the bilharzia treatment he underwent in early 2012: ”It’s a very strong pill. It basically kills everything in your system, and hopefully at the same time, kills the parasite. It’s something that I have to try to get rid of it. You cannot train when you’re taking that. The treatment is pretty rough stuff. I have had a bit of a slow start to the season. There was more than a week when I could not even touch the bike.”
Read more at http://velonews.competitor.com/2013...bilharzia-parasite_295548#1f7wgpA3E4S5yEmZ.99

Cound from Velorooms
"I don't know where you got that rubbish about bilharzia treatment being comparable to chemo?!?
I was with Chris when he took the 7-day (NOT 6 week) course of medication (immediately following Criterium International) & while there was some mild nausea & fatigue it certainly wasn't anything like a chemo treatment. He obviously wasn't able to ride while taking the medication.
And yes, he definitely has been struggling with bilharzia... he is due for another test to see if it's cleared his system.

So Froome says it's 'rough stuff' and it 'kills everything in your system' and Cound says nothing more than 'mild nausea and fatigue'.

 

[martinvickers]

I admit there is only one Froome. No one has done was he's done. He is beyond words, logic, reason and sensibility. So, yes, I thank you for pointing that out. That was my bad. No one comes close to Froome's rise.

You knew what my point was. When riders rise rapidly, like Froome, like Sella, it's down to dope.



Now if you wish to suspend belief for Froome, I'm happy for you. Clearly you have more faith in a rotten sport than most do. But it's not logic. It's just that, faith. It's good that you can do that. I can't. But I think it's good you can hold that belief.

Flat earth. Sorry, but no one thought the world was flat. Only now those who have some form of 'faith' you know that.

I neither believe, nor disbelieve. I am the true agnostic - not only don't I know, but I recognise the impossiblity of my knowing, without the evidence.

What I do have are views, which you know, and I have patience, which again you know. Anything else is pointless.

Once that is accepted, all that is left is the gathering, and validation of, evidence. Since I don't get to take blood tests, I concentrate on the latter, specifically testing the theories.

None of them have come close to passing muster yet. From either side. And so I remain agnostic, and waiting.

 

[the sceptic]

I neither believe, nor disbelieve. I am the true agnostic - not only don't I know, but I recognise the impossiblity of my knowing, without the evidence.

What I do have are views, which you know, and I have patience, which again you know. Anything else is pointless.

Once that is accepted, all that is left is the gathering, and validation of, evidence. Since I don't get to take blood tests, I concentrate on the latter, specifically testing the theories.

None of them have come close to passing muster yet. From either side. And so I remain agnostic, and waiting.

So you believe its exactly a 50% chance that they are doping?

 

[The Hitch]

What a lot of us were saying is that it makes no sense that you claim Sky doped Froome before the Vuelta .

And where did I claim that?

 

[martinvickers]

So you believe its exactly a 50% chance that they are doping?

Where did I say that?

 

[the sceptic]

Where did I say that?

You are completely undecided arent you? Both are equally likely in your mind? Last time I checked that makes it 50/50.

There is plenty of evidence out there, in both directions. Maybe you should review it, and see if you can get an opinion that way?

I find it hard to believe that someone can spend thousands of hours and posts on a forum without having any opinion on what they are discussing. Quite frankly, it seems like you are just trolling.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Yes

I have 2 road bikes and a mountain bike. I've been riding for almost 30 years. I have ridden mainly for pleasure but also raced timetrials. I have ridden steel, 531, alu and carbon - drop bars and TT bars, tubs and clinchers. Whats the problem - you think i dont know about cycling?

No, I was seeking more an understanding of your experience with cycling given the seat bolt account as released by BC. Sometimes people give a bit of background (lawyers, PhD in physiology, Cat 1, etc are examples) as it relates to their posting. I did not mean offence or to get personal per se.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Where did I say that?

I realize you never posted anything like this, BUT, I find this an interesting question.

What's the probability Froome is doping? Just that one rider.

 

[DirtyWorks]

So you're telling us that Sky...

1. Have very efficient team cars
2. Save more on their heating bills than, say, Garmin.
3. Are cheap, and perhaps not very logical (drive further to save fuel).

What? That makes perfect sense... Sky is the cleans through and through.

 

[oldcrank]

EDIT: Oooops seems Froome and Cound aren't reading from the same page.

Froome about the treatment "Here’s how Froome described Biltricide, the bilharzia treatment he underwent in early 2012: ”It’s a very strong pill. It basically kills everything in your system, and hopefully at the same time, kills the parasite. It’s something that I have to try to get rid of it. You cannot train when you’re taking that. The treatment is pretty rough stuff. I have had a bit of a slow start to the season. There was more than a week when I could not even touch the bike.”
Read more at http://velonews.competitor.com/2013...bilharzia-parasite_295548#1f7wgpA3E4S5yEmZ.99

Cound from Velorooms
"I don't know where you got that rubbish about bilharzia treatment being comparable to chemo?!?
I was with Chris when he took the 7-day (NOT 6 week) course of medication (immediately following Criterium International) & while there was some mild nausea & fatigue it certainly wasn't anything like a chemo treatment. He obviously wasn't able to ride while taking the medication.
And yes, he definitely has been struggling with bilharzia... he is due for another test to see if it's cleared his system.

So Chris says he didn't touch the bike for a week,
while Michelle says he didn't ride for seven days.
Sounds like they are on the same page, my friend

 

[Ventoux Boar]

I am no expert on formula 1, but the car that finishes last doesnt suddenly turn into the best car the next year does it? Has that ever happened?

Embarrassing. Maybe do a little reading and thinking before posting. Thanks.

 

[Ventoux Boar]

Haven't the last few pages just flown by? Good show, chaps

But I have to say I'm surprised at the lack of rigour around this miraculous 6 week pre-Vuelta transformation mystery. Various theories have been offered:

1. The slack orthodoxy that Sky gave him the good gear just prior to ditching his contract - that's right they planned to tool him up and turf him out - falls apart on its face. Yet that was the reflex response of The Clinic to the question. Poor.

2. Some bluster along the lines of - of course they dope how do you explain XXX otherwise - notably from Hog, completely failed to come to grips with the detail of the question. Deliberately so? Irrelevant contributions regardless.

3. Froome going freelance in a desperate attempt to save his skyride - vanishingly short 6 week window, granted - is not immediately ridiculous. (Not possible to have escaped post-Vuelta power file analysis so no way it stayed freelance).

Is this the consensus? What does that say about Sky's internal program? Wiggo happy with the local warm ales while Froome glams it up with something chilled and imported? Is this the root cause of their antipathy?

4. Hitch, possibly inadvertently gave us a truism - that most rider's don't achieve their potential - and then excluded Froome from the class of riders when he realised his mistake.

More rigour, please.

 

[Justinr]

And where did I claim that?

May not have been you directly Hitch but in this long long thread it was implied / stated by some. i think the point i was trying to make still stands.

 

[Justinr]

Haven't the last few pages just flown by? Good show, chaps

But I have to say I'm surprised at the lack of rigour around this miraculous 6 week pre-Vuelta transformation mystery. Various theories have been offered:

1. The slack orthodoxy that Sky gave him the good gear just prior to ditching his contract - that's right they planned to tool him up and turf him out - falls apart on its face. Yet that was the reflex response of The Clinic to the question. Poor.

2. Some bluster along the lines of - of course they dope how do you explain XXX otherwise - notably from Hog, completely failed to come to grips with the detail of the question. Deliberately so? Irrelevant contributions regardless.

3. Froome going freelance in a desperate attempt to save his skyride - vanishingly short 6 week window, granted - is not immediately ridiculous. (Not possible to have escaped post-Vuelta power file analysis so no way it stayed freelance).

Is this the consensus? What does that say about Sky's internal program? Wiggo happy with the local warm ales while Froome glams it up with something chilled and imported? Is this the root cause of their antipathy?

4. Hitch, possibly inadvertently gave us a truism - that most rider's don't achieve their potential - and then excluded Froome from the class of riders when he realised his mistake.

More rigour, please.

I feel like we've just had our homework analysed by the headmaster ...