Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Justinr]

Originally Posted by GuyIncognito
Some of the Sky fans here are so inbred they classify as sandwiches

Good to see you are not shooting the messenger just because of the message ...

Maybe I could troll you and call you a c**t because I don't agree with what you say. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but personal attacks are not (at least as far as I was aware) what this forum is about ...

 

[Justinr]

You are looking at year end totals. Im looking at year round totals. Better imo than the UCI only current year counts method which had your avatar as the world number 1 for much of the 2010 season.

Year round rankings Froome was still outside the top 300 in August 2011. He got into the number 1 spot at some point in the TDF build up in 2013. I'm guessing, considering Murito didn't contest the Giro losing his points from there, it would have been the late May update. So I'm a few months off, I guess. 21 or so.

Well if you don't ride any ranking races you don't get ranked - that doesn't mean you are a **** rider.

I could be the most talented sportsman around but if I don't register and get tracked in competition then I don't get a ranking.

 

[Justinr]

Nottingham Forest?

Relegated 1972
Clough took over 76/77
Promoted 77/78
Won the European Cup 78/79 & 79/80

Nice one ...

 

[Netserk]

Well if you don't ride any ranking races you don't get ranked - that doesn't mean you are a **** rider.

I could be the most talented sportsman around but if I don't register and get tracked in competition then I don't get a ranking.

Do you have any idea how many ranked races Froome raced before August '11?

 

[Justinr]

No but a team that leaves no stoned unturned and specialises in every little detail and had their 2012 TdF winner in the lab every 6 weeks doing tests just might do a Vo2Max on their other GT winner.

But lets ignore this important part of the Sky manifesto and the incy wincy fact that Vo2Max aint really important, but pineapple juice is and keeping the mechanics dry is huge marginal gain.

Hey look I don't know why people always quote it (VO2) but, again as an analogy to F1, does everyone worry about BHP? That's a measure of engine output.

I don't know if I am right or wrong but I do think people put a huge amount on a measure that is 30-40 years old (like BHP for a car engine). I agree though that if Sky said they would provide it then they should. What I don't know is how often Brad was in doing it compared with Froome - if at all for either.

Again though people point to the small bits - pineapple juice, pillows, etc.

They never claim pineapple juice gives them wings. They claim, and I don't know if this is true, that it makes the water easier to drink. Is that their miracle secret - probably not, but you all like to laugh at it.

WHY do you think SKY would divulge their secrets to the public? They never would and 'being transparent' never meant that. It would be like asking any company in the world to be open with their competitors - it just isn't going to happen!

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Tell me about the seat post bolts again?

 

[the sceptic]

Benetton was a good example of that occurring.

Mind you that had to rip out the engine and replace it with really good one. So, yes, same applies here!

I always imagine Froome as an everyday car that someone put an F1 engine into. Thats why he can only ride fast in a straight line.

 

[Justinr]

Justinr: regardless of whether VO2max is necessary or helpful, how do you feel about Fran Millar's claim that Froome has not been in a lab since the 2013 Tour?

Wiggo was apparently in the lab every 6 weeks in 2012, doing physiology tests for Kerrison.

Honestly, I don't follow Fran Millar so I don't want to comment at this stage. But give me a few days to trawl through Twitter, etc and I will be prepared to respond with my view.

My initial comment would be that not being in the lab since the 2013 TdF seems strange, maybe it depends on what you mean by the lab.

Please though give me a few days to look in to it.

 

[Granville57]

I'm not saying I'm right but is VO2 max really the be all and end all???

Once again, there were some pearls of wisdom offered by JV. It's really a shame he was run out of here (especially considering that he knows more about human physiology as it applies to doping in pro cycling than everyone else in here combined. Not to mention, he actually rode alongside Lance. Did I mention that he rode with Lance?)

Hello JV. There are quite a number of doping related questions on this thread. Here is one, non-doping related. What was Your VO2 max measured at during your career ?

I was measured between 78ml/kg (16yrs old, test done at 2000m altitude) to 90ml/kg (23 yrs old, sea level)... I have never been tested while doped, but one could imagine some big numbers!!

Actually, I forgot, I did knock off one 92ml/kg as well.

But, remember, lactate metabolism and the ability to sustain power is much more important than maximum cardiovascular capacity....

And this!

btw - vo2 max is not a great indicator of ability. We don't test for it. We use a test that steps up every 10 minutes, from power level to power level. You never reach vo2 max with such long/fatiguing intervals. We measure v02 , but it never gets to max before the rider fails. This test is, however, a great indicator of on road performance, because it lasts an hour and a half and is very tough the whole time. The guys hate it.

This type of testing is more aligned with how your body adapts to and tolerates acidity. Which is far more interesting than v02 max.

 

[Justinr]

Tell me about the seat post bolts again?

Well maybe I shouldn't rise to this but its too tempting ... as I understood it they put the bolts behind the seatpost and not on the side. How much it made a difference I don't know but one thing is for sure there has been quite a change in aerodynamics for frames in the last 10 years, even if its only bits here and there.

It all adds up - and in the case of track cycling a 1/10th or 1/100th here and there really does make the difference.

I hate to use the quote but in longer races it amounts to "every second counts" (that will get a few posts...).

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Well maybe I shouldn't rise to this but its too tempting ... as I understood it they put the bolts behind the seatpost and not on the side. How much it made a difference I don't know but one thing is for sure there has been quite a change in aerodynamics for frames in the last 10 years, even if its only bits here and there.

I mean this in all sincerity - do you ride a bike?

 

[Granville57]

I'm assuming you mean before a rider was actually sitting on the bike and after a rider was a sitting on the bike?

Just look at all these aerodynamic obstacles. It beggars belief that such an appalling contraption could pass through the air at all.

I was going to let this slide, as I only just saw the response (this thread is moving way too fast for me! )

HOWEVER...since we are here again.

RE: Aerodynamic improvements.

Thats right, no-one could possibly improve on that now could they ... there are so many areas there i wouldn't know where to start.

If you were to put a human being on top of the bike first, most of whatever you imagine you could improve upon would turn out to be pointless. #seatpostbolts

 

[Justinr]

Froome claims to have been diagnosed with Bilharzia either in the winter of 09/10 (so about 18 months before the 2011 TDF) or the winter of 10/11, (so about 6 months before the 2011 TDF), he's not quite sure, which isn't surprising of course since its not like a cyclist should expect to remember roughly what year it was he got diagnosed with a deabilitating disease that threatened his dreams and livelyhood.

In either case, why is he still getting treatment 6/18 months later? Why is he riding races whilst not cured? I wouldn't go off on hog for being a bad ds if the real ones, according to their story, allowed him to continue racing while not cured of the disease.

Lol that wasnt a hit on The Hog - just wasnt sure what he meant. I like his posts - generally well thought out and measured, even if we dont agree.

 

[Afrank]

Well maybe I shouldn't rise to this but its too tempting ... as I understood it they put the bolts behind the seatpost and not on the side. How much it made a difference I don't know but one thing is for sure there has been quite a change in aerodynamics for frames in the last 10 years, even if its only bits here and there.

It all adds up - and in the case of track cycling a 1/10th or 1/100th here and there really does make the difference.

I hate to use the quote but in longer races it amounts to "every second counts" (that will get a few posts...).

Do you think all the other teams are using seat bolts so big they create enough drag for Sky riders to take minutes out of them?

Sorry, but all of sky's so called marginal gains just are not enough to enable them to dominate like they have been the past few years. I'm sure that if you put every one of their marginal gains in a list you'd find that every one of them is either something that has zero effect on the outcome of the race or is something that every single team and rider already does and has been doing for years (so again, zero effect on the race outcome).

 

[Justinr]

when it comes to sky, somehow only the dodgy details get into the public domain (leinders, tenerife, bilharzia, jtl, henao, etc.). They don't seem interested in cleaning/clearing their name at all.
it would only take relatively small efforts to kill a lot of the unjustified rumors about doping.
they don't seem interested though.

But would it really only take a little? From what i've seen here (and elsewhere) i think it would just create another 10,000 posts...

Dont have a problem with that - its peoples opinions, and they are entitled to them.

 

[Granville57]

Do you think all the other teams are using seat bolts so big they create enough drag for Sky riders to take minutes out of them?

In all fairness to Justinr, the original point he making was in reference to Boardman on the track.

And to BYOP - can I prove 100% they aren't cheating? No of course not. But I believe they are clean - I've followed Sir Dave, etc. and his aims, etc. for years which is why I believe. Look back at what he and Boardman did with the track - every single element of the bike was analysed to see how it could be improved, e.g. seat bolts place in different positions because it was more aerodynamic.

I am enjoying this though.

 

[Justinr]

This is like people who say "I don't believe something can come out of nothing ergo god must have created everything" ignorant of the fact that someone must have created god in the first place.

You pick holes in the story that Froome started to dope in 2011, seemingly unaware of the fact that all those holes become 10x bigger the moment you entertain the alternate theory that Froome was clean.

No its not at all.

What a lot of us were saying is that it makes no sense that you claim Sky doped Froome before the Vuelta when he was seemingly on the way out only to sign him for £1m a year. Why bother? Why not dope a rider who had shown more potential in that year? There is no logic in that in my mind.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Froome got himself in shape - not Sky.

 

[Granville57]

Froome got himself in shape - not Sky.

Probably took one look at Cobo and thought, "Oh Christ, there must not be any effective testing at this race. I'm all in!"

 

[Samson777]

No its not at all.

What a lot of us were saying is that it makes no sense that you claim Sky doped Froome before the Vuelta when he was seemingly on the way out only to sign him for £1m a year. Why bother? Why not dope a rider who had shown more potential in that year? There is no logic in that in my mind.

Just out of curiosity; What British Sky member are you referring to?

 

[the sceptic]

moving the seatbolts is my favourite marginal gain so far. Guaranteed 5 minute improvement on a MTF!

 

[Justinr]

The posts that she posted were regarding the treatment Froome undertook in March 2012. The guy must have bad luck if he keeps getting Schistosomiasis. Good job he's been clear since mid 2012.

I wasnt talking about 2012. People on here were saying he wasnt good enough for the 2011 TDF. The fact is in the 2 week period after the TDS and before the TDF he had treatment for Bil - i think thats a pretty good reason not to get picked.

 

[Justinr]

And it certainly isn't something that one would normally squeeze into such an exceptionally narrow, and optimistic, time frame.

If British Cycling had laid out a ten-year-plan, starting with riders in their teens, and groomed them specifically for the task of ultimately winning the TdF, then the concept would seem much more plausible. But that is not what unfolded.

To be honest they did get a bit of luck with a flat 2012 tour, a banned Contador and lots of TTs. Brad wouldnt have won in 2011 or 2013.

 

[martinvickers]

That a because Sella got caught and if you think winning 3 stages in one Giro and coming 6th against doped up Contador and Ricco then he was a Froome for sure. And looked just as ungainly on a bike.

3 stages and 1 6th v 3 podiums and a fourth, a tour, a hatful of stage races.

The same? Nope.

And who said, 'Those who do not remember their past are condemned to repeat their mistakes? Using finance analogies probably doesn't cut it for the obvious reason that very industry blew up the world! i.e. just like doping when people try not only to predict the future but guarantee results, money and in this case doping is at the bottom of the pile.

I'm sorry, Hog, but this doesn't make a lick of sense.

You're welcome to challenge but I feel your current argument is based on the 'hearts and minds" type of emotion approach and not one based on logic

Well, you're entitled to feel that, Hog, fair enough, but it doesn't make it true.

And for the record. No one ever thought the world was flat, ever. That's one of those emotive logic curveballs that gets thrown. Not true.

Actually, lots and lots of people believed in a flat earth. The myth is that Columbus and his crews did. For the record.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_Earth

Sorry, hog, forgive me. couldn't resist.

 

[Granville57]

Luck.

And...over to you, hitch.