Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Dear Wiggo]

Power attracts the corrupt.

 

[AcademyCC]

My opinion is - i dont think SKY run a doping program. I think they have professed to a high state of cleanliness when in actual fact they have used all methods to optimize high performance within the guidelines set down to them by the UCI.

Their is a big difference. As they have gone along they've realized what is acceptable and what is not and have adapted accordingly.

I honestly believe Wiggos Tour win is explainable. Parcours, field, opposition and team they had.

At the minute I still have no explanation or rational for Chris Froome. I think hes doping on his own, training in Kenya/SA in winter with the rest of the mad men then maintaining his own program in the season.

 

[bewildered]

The President of Cycling Australia is also the sole owner of Orica-Greenedge. That pretty much trumps any intrigue or conflict of interest that you can find with Sky.

Can you not find a conflict of interest with Sky at UCI level? Hint: Cookson (and I don't mean because his son works for Sky btw).

Do you not think that 'trumps' the relationship between OGE and Cycling Australia and that of BC/SKY. They are the same conflict at national level but Cookson has now brought that to international/World governing body level.

So I don't agree that the conflict between OGE and Cycling Australia 'trumps' any conflict of interest I can find with Sky. The UCI level conflict trumps them both by a street.

 

[martinvickers]

Can you not find a conflict of interest with Sky at UCI level? Hint: Cookson (and I don't mean because his son works for Sky btw).

Do you not think that 'trumps' the relationship between OGE and Cycling Australia and that of BC/SKY. They are the same conflict at national level but Cookson has now brought that to international/World governing body level.

So I don't agree that the conflict between OGE and Cycling Australia 'trumps' any conflict of interest I can find with Sky. The UCI level conflict trumps them both by a street.

Cookson Sr left British Cycling upon his election. Cookson Sr has no direct relationship any more with Sky.

 

[thehog]

Cookson Sr left British Cycling upon his election. Cookson Sr has no direct relationship any more with Sky.

Apart from his son. That's direct isn't it? Blood line? Sharing dinner with your son. Or maybe he refusing to speak to his son so there's no direct discussions on Sky.

Probably still does some landscape gardening for the Murdoch's as well.

 

[martinvickers]

Apart from his son. That's direct isn't it? Blood line? Sharing dinner with your son. Or maybe he refusing to speak to his son so there's no direct discussions on Sky.

Probably still does some landscape gardening for the Murdoch's as well.

Cookson Sr has a direct relationship with his adult son (parent). His son, Cookson Jr has a direct relationship with Sky (employee).

That's pretty much the definition of an indirect relationship. And given Cookson is in Britain, and his son was in Columbia, one wonders at the length of the cutlery for their shared dinners...

 

[oldcrank]

ESPN, 'The Worldwide Leader in Sports' recently ran
a piece on 'the most dynamic man in cycling today,'
'a reform-minded Brit who has repeatedly shown he's
determined to clean up the sport.'
http://espn.go.com/sports/endurance...cling-chief-brian-cookson-working-clean-sport

 

[gooner]

If people want Oli Cookson out of the sport, good luck to them. I prefer keeping my ire toward the people that I know are the bad apples in the sport.

I think it's a pretty pathetic thing to want someone out of a job that he probably loves doing the last 4 years. All this when there could easily be a likelyhood that he has never done anything wrong in his time in cycling.

Direct your anger at Riis and the doping docs still in the sport. These clowns are getting some easy ride at the moment. And before I hear that the ZTP and transparency is why Sky get a harder time, that isn't an acceptable reason. I don't care about that, I see no difference with the doping docs in Katusha and GreenEdge to Sky and Leinders.

Maybe Dave's biggest mistake was he should have been more like Vino/Astana and Riis. He probably would have got an easier ride. Oli Cookson might have been left alone then.

 

[thehog]

Cookson Sr has a direct relationship with his adult son (parent). His son, Cookson Jr has a direct relationship with Sky (employee).

That's pretty much the definition of an indirect relationship. And given Cookson is in Britain, and his son was in Columbia, one wonders at the length of the cutlery for their shared dinners...

And the UCI has a direct relationship with a Sky. Which, you know, is direct as you get.

No wonder Cookson Snr can't help but mention Froome in every example he gives about anything. Including cameras on bikes

There's a lot of love going on there. Almost David Walsh levels of love.

 

[gooner]

How come I never hear anything about this with Makarov in the past?

 

[thehog]

If people want Oli Cookson out of the sport, good luck to them. I prefer keeping my ire toward the people that I know are the bad apples in the sport.

I think it's a pretty pathetic thing to want someone out of a job that he probably loves doing the last 4 years. All this when there could easily be a likelyhood that he has never done anything wrong in his time in cycling.

Direct your anger at Riis and the doping docs still in the sport. These clowns are getting some easy ride at the moment. And before I hear that the ZTP and transparency is why Sky get a harder time, that isn't an acceptable reason. I don't care about that, I see no difference with the doping docs in Katusha and GreenEdge to Sky and Leinders.

Maybe Dave's biggest mistake was he should have been more like Vino/Astana and Riis. He probably would have got an easier ride. Oli Cookson might have been left alone then.

Maybe because those teams don't have a guy like Froome who went from zig zagging up hills to attacking Contador in the saddle.

Sky get hit because they've managed to produce the most ridiculous transformed cyclist in the history of a very dirty sport.

When GreenEdge go full *** they'll get a spray as well. Don't worry.

 

[gooner]

Maybe because those teams don't have a guy like Froome who went from zig zagging up hills to attacking Contador in the saddle.

Sky get hit because they've managed to produce the most ridiculous transformed cyclist in the history of a very dirty sport.

No one denies his transformation but him doping isn't any different to Contador. The end result is the same for both - cheating. Froome wasn't really what I was referring to. Why are we going after Oli Cookson and guys like Riis, Ekimov, Vino are involved in running teams? I see Acevedo in the car today for Katusha. I don't like going selectively after things.

When GreenEdge go full *** they'll get a spray as well. Don't worry.

GreenEdge are winning TTTs and Gerrans has two monuments to his name. It's not Sky level but they're not run of the mill either. They have Stephens and White on board. I would love to have seen the reaction had Adam Yates been at Sky when he won at Turkey.

I'm not saying Yates and Gerrans are dopers but this is happening with Rodriguez Alonso on the books. I see this as no different to Leinders with Sky. Leinders was rightly went after when stuff came about his past but I don't see anything to the same level with others that are still active in the sport.

Why is that? The problem with doping docs in sport hasn't just gone away with Ferrari out of cycling and Leinders leaving Sky. I think dimspace who we know on twitter wrote an excellent article highlighting this in the past.

 

[martinvickers]

And the UCI has a direct relationship with a Sky. Which, you know, is direct as you get.

No wonder Cookson Snr can't help but mention Froome in every example he gives about anything. Including cameras on bikes

There's a lot of love going on there. Almost David Walsh levels of love.

Oops. Bad luck there, hog. You were doing so well, but the trolling klaxon just went off...

 

[thehog]

Oops. Bad luck there, hog. You were doing so well, but the trolling klaxon just went off...

Sounds like you came to the end of your "indirect" relationship game. Nothing to do with trolling at all. The direct relationships are very clear and very obvious to all. (Except to those who refuse to see them).

The trolling call is common when one loses the ability for the next rebuttal. In saying that generally I think you're above such commonalities. I'd prefer if you'd engage but it's clear you've lost your hat.

 

[thehog]

No one denies his transformation but him doping isn't any different to Contador. The end result is the same for both - cheating. Froome wasn't really what I was referring to. Why are we going after Oli Cookson and guys like Riis, Ekimov, Vino are involved in running teams? I see Acevedo in the car today for Katusha. I don't like going selectively after things.



GreenEdge are winning TTTs and Gerrans has two monuments to his name. It's not Sky level but they're not run of the mill either. They have Stephens and White on board. I would love to have seen the reaction had Adam Yates been at Sky when he won at Turkey.

I'm not saying Yates and Gerrans are dopers but this is happening with Rodriguez Alonso on the books. I see this as no different to Leinders with Sky. Leinders was rightly went after when stuff came about his past but I don't see anything to the same level with others that are still active in the sport.

Why is that? The problem with doping docs in sport hasn't just gone away with Ferrari out of cycling and Leinders leaving Sky. I think dimspace who we know on twitter wrote an excellent article highlighting this in the past.

Gerrans is the guy who rode away from Froome on San Luca in 2009.

Just think about that for a while. He's basically a long haul sprinter chance maker. The fact that the guy behind him who was zig zagging would 2 years later blast the entire Vuelta field in submission is beyond even your wildest fantasies.

 

[martinvickers]

Sounds like you came to the end of your "indirect" relationship game. Nothing to do with trolling at all. The direct relationships are very clear and very obvious to all. (Except to those who refuse to see them).

You said the UCI had a direct relationship with Sky. That's just trolling, Hog, and you know it is. EVERY pro team has such a link - it's meaningless and it's trolling. It's a cheap gotcha, and it just doesn't cut it.

Come on, give me somethin' to work with! Be better than The Hut. Be better than The Hut!

 

[thehog]

You said the UCI had a direct relationship with Sky. That's just trolling, Hog, and you know it is. EVERY pro team has such a link - it's meaningless and it's trolling. It's a cheap gotcha, and it just doesn't cut it.

Come on, give me somethin' to work with! Be better than The Hut. Be better than The Hut!

Yes Martin just like Oli and Brian not talking to each other because at one point they were in different countries - that's not trolling and avoiding the obvious? And somehow that made it "indirect".... Riiiiight.

Please. You were tossing up full tosses wanting to be hit out of the park with that argument.

At least think about what you construct and read it over prior to posting.

 

[The Hitch]

Cookson Sr has a direct relationship with his adult son (parent). His son, Cookson Jr has a direct relationship with Sky (employee).

That's pretty much the definition of an indirect relationship. And given Cookson is in Britain, and his son was in Columbia, one wonders at the length of the cutlery for their shared dinners...

ColOmbia.
....

 

[The Hitch]

ESPN, 'The Worldwide Leader in Sports' recently ran
a piece on 'the most dynamic man in cycling today,'
'a reform-minded Brit who has repeatedly shown he's
determined to clean up the sport.'
http://espn.go.com/sports/endurance...cling-chief-brian-cookson-working-clean-sport

Clean up what sport? Cycling? I thought brailsford already did that in 2012.

 

[The Hitch]

If people want Oli Cookson out of the sport, good luck to them. I prefer keeping my ire toward the people that I know are the bad apples in the sport.

I think it's a pretty pathetic thing to want someone out of a job that he probably loves doing the last 4 years. All this when there could easily be a likelyhood that he has never done anything wrong in his time in cycling.

Direct your anger at Riis and the doping docs still in the sport. These clowns are getting some easy ride at the moment. And before I hear that the ZTP and transparency is why Sky get a harder time, that isn't an acceptable reason. I don't care about that, I see no difference with the doping docs in Katusha and GreenEdge to Sky and Leinders.

Maybe Dave's biggest mistake was he should have been more like Vino/Astana and Riis. He probably would have got an easier ride. Oli Cookson might have been left alone then.

When you start going on football forums and attack the levels of doping going on there rather than expressing your everlasting love for anyone who ever got a contract in that sport, then you can start telling cycling fans who to direct their ire against.

Not that I need the right to defend dopers. I've called out Riis and contador many a time.

But I think those who want to support Riis have as much right to close their eyes to his closet as you do to football's.

You are right though that if sky had gone the way of katusha there would be less outrage. Yes, if they had gotten a few gt podiums with an actual climber rather than 2 tdf whitewashes with guys who would have to dope just to finish in the top 100 there would be less outrage. Pretty obvious that.

 

[stutue]

What's incredible is that you could react to my post the way you did, in particular omitting the part that explains that I mean exactly the opposite of what you're reacting to. It's far from OK, it's simply not the key problem. The key problem is that we have the promotional body and the testing body intertwined. Also conflict of interest, but one that has proven a hundred times over to be at the source of actual corruption.

I am utterly un-interested in heads rolling.

You've made some good posts and I usually find them worth reading. This was tripe.

My fault for not posting clearly. I wasn't actually responding to your post but citing your post to help make my point.

Wasnt directed at you but at the hysterical lynch mob screaming for blood.

 

[stutue]

Maybe because those teams don't have a guy like Froome who went from zig zagging up hills to attacking Contador in the saddle.

Sky get hit because they've managed to produce the most ridiculous transformed cyclist in the history of a very dirty sport.

I don't agree with the hyperbole, but I do accept the scepticism. It is absolutely fair enough. But...this stuff was most successful under MQ.

Under Cookson's presidency Sky seem to have crumbled so far this season

When GreenEdge go full *** they'll get a spray as well. Don't worry.

They did pretty damn well in last years TdF....or are you saying that only the Podium are doping??

 

[Libertine Seguros]

No one denies his transformation but him doping isn't any different to Contador. The end result is the same for both - cheating. Froome wasn't really what I was referring to. Why are we going after Oli Cookson and guys like Riis, Ekimov, Vino are involved in running teams? I see Acevedo in the car today for Katusha. I don't like going selectively after things.

Who's going after Oli? It's Brian who is compromised by Oli's position at Sky, not Oli. Oli had his job there first, as you have pointed out, and Oli isn't in a position of enough power to affect matters, whereas Brian is. Now it's true that because of the comparatively powerless position, the potential conflict would be resolved more quietly with Oli going, but that hasn't seemed to be the gist of what is being talked about, because Oli isn't the one who's compromised.

Also, while it is suspicious to have people like Eki running teams, or Ace in the car for Катюша, that's not really what we're talking about in this thread at this point. I'd assume that the Kazakh fed may well have a similar problem to the British in terms of blurred lines between the official national entity and the trade team, for example, but I don't read the language to know any more than the merest basics about who's who in the Kazakh fed and Astana. The issue is that an incestuous network has developed that creates a circling of the wagons, if you like; everybody involved has a vested interest. A bunch of positives at Sky would reflect badly on the sport; if Brailsford is involved, it would reflect badly not just on the individuals involved but on the entire track program which was built up under his tutelage in the public eye; it would reflect badly on Cookson for having been on the board of the holding company, and his son's livelihood may be at stake. People who are not directly connected, like David Millar, would have reasons to help bury bad news; in addition to his own personal relationship with Brailsford his sister's reputation is on the line. Furthermore for Cookson, he has a vested interest in preserving cycling's reputation in order for it to remain a profitable sport, so high profile positives of the current clean champions on the back of the recent public profile of the Armstrong judgement are not something he really wants either. That would be the same for any team, not just Sky, of course, but as they're the current team on top, it would be more high profile for them. And with Sky being connected to a media mogul owning much of the press in the team's homeland, they are in a good position to bury bad news anyway and discredit dissenting voices.

None of this means that anything untoward has gone on. But we do know that certain key figures within this network, who are connected intrinsically to both the trade team and the national entity, both on the coaching and the riding sides, are dishonest, and that the team has been keen to show as much transparency as the Staatssicherheitsdienst (notwithstanding that public survey where they whitewashed the options to get answers they liked, such as the brilliantly set up question "Team Sky are anti-doping, how does that make you feel about Team Sky?" where no answer allowed for the possibility that you might not believe them), and that does mean that fears of corruption, insider dealing and so on will arise.

GreenEdge are winning TTTs and Gerrans has two monuments to his name. It's not Sky level but they're not run of the mill either. They have Stephens and White on board. I would love to have seen the reaction had Adam Yates been at Sky when he won at Turkey.

I'm not saying Yates and Gerrans are dopers but this is happening with Rodriguez Alonso on the books. I see this as no different to Leinders with Sky. Leinders was rightly went after when stuff came about his past but I don't see anything to the same level with others that are still active in the sport.

Leinders went more than a couple of months after the stuff came about his past. Sky had an investigation they promised in July 2012, and then at the end of September 2012, long after everything was known, Dave Brailsford was asked how that investigation was going, and he literally ran away from the question. They then dismissed Geert under cover of night one day before the Reasoned Decision was published, to try to bury their bad news. Not really the actions of a team that is trying to be transparent.

Why is that? The problem with doping docs in sport hasn't just gone away with Ferrari out of cycling and Leinders leaving Sky. I think dimspace who we know on twitter wrote an excellent article highlighting this in the past.

Many of the dubious docs simply haven't done anything high profile enough, or stupid enough, to be on the radar. When a team produces the transformations and performances Sky did in 2012, people immediately question where this came from. Leinders was barely mentioned on the forum before then. Similarly, I had no idea who José Ibarguren Taus was before Gilbert's magic 2011, but Gilbert's hugely dominant performances led to questions, which led to people discovering the past of Ibarguren and his being added to the list of notoriety. Lotto's disappointing 2012 campaign and OPQS' miraculous spring that same year after Ibarguren moved from one to the other only fuelled the fire further. Lower profile doping docs like Marcos Maynar wouldn't have come to our attention if they hadn't been so ridiculously blatant either.

There are many team docs that have dodgy history, but you'd have to do a fair bit of research to say who is dodgy and why. Whereas with people like Conconi, Ferrari, del Moral, Fuentes, their names are synonymous with doping and so people aren't able to let those names slide if they appear on a rider's or team's radar.

 

[stutue]

You are making two points here. One about corruption in the administrative bodies because of relationships, and the other about Leinders.

To the first point, I genuinely don't see how this situation can ever be avoided when presidents are drawn from the tiny little pond that is the world of pro cycling. A good president is likely to be one who is experienced and has contacts and influence. Close relationships are not only bound to have been formed but are also a precondition of a candidate having ever been any good at what they did.

It comes down to whether the President is drawn from outside cycling, in which case would they would arrive with no background, or if not great care has to be taken to elect somebody with integrity.

That is down to the electing body and their agenda. Its too early to tell with Cookson, but equally its too early to condemn. Give the guy a chance. There are decades of damage to undo. That won't happen in 6 months.

For your second point, you are spot on. The Leinders connection is THE critical stinky point. The success may be the symptom of Leinders, but its Leinders that needs pursuing.

 

[sniper]

Who's going after Oli? It's Brian who is compromised by Oli's position at Sky, not Oli. Oli had his job there first, as you have pointed out, and Oli isn't in a position of enough power to affect matters, whereas Brian is. Now it's true that because of the comparatively powerless position, the potential conflict would be resolved more quietly with Oli going, but that hasn't seemed to be the gist of what is being talked about, because Oli isn't the one who's compromised.

Also, while it is suspicious to have people like Eki running teams, or Ace in the car for Катюша, that's not really what we're talking about in this thread at this point. I'd assume that the Kazakh fed may well have a similar problem to the British in terms of blurred lines between the official national entity and the trade team, for example, but I don't read the language to know any more than the merest basics about who's who in the Kazakh fed and Astana. The issue is that an incestuous network has developed that creates a circling of the wagons, if you like; everybody involved has a vested interest. A bunch of positives at Sky would reflect badly on the sport; if Brailsford is involved, it would reflect badly not just on the individuals involved but on the entire track program which was built up under his tutelage in the public eye; it would reflect badly on Cookson for having been on the board of the holding company, and his son's livelihood may be at stake. People who are not directly connected, like David Millar, would have reasons to help bury bad news; in addition to his own personal relationship with Brailsford his sister's reputation is on the line. Furthermore for Cookson, he has a vested interest in preserving cycling's reputation in order for it to remain a profitable sport, so high profile positives of the current clean champions on the back of the recent public profile of the Armstrong judgement are not something he really wants either. That would be the same for any team, not just Sky, of course, but as they're the current team on top, it would be more high profile for them. And with Sky being connected to a media mogul owning much of the press in the team's homeland, they are in a good position to bury bad news anyway and discredit dissenting voices.

None of this means that anything untoward has gone on. But we do know that certain key figures within this network, who are connected intrinsically to both the trade team and the national entity, both on the coaching and the riding sides, are dishonest, and that the team has been keen to show as much transparency as the Staatssicherheitsdienst (notwithstanding that public survey where they whitewashed the options to get answers they liked, such as the brilliantly set up question "Team Sky are anti-doping, how does that make you feel about Team Sky?" where no answer allowed for the possibility that you might not believe them), and that does mean that fears of corruption, insider dealing and so on will arise.

brilliant explications.
appreciate you taking time to talk some sense into the minds of the clueless.

with all due respect, comments like "why don't we talk about riis and ekimov and leave oliver alone" is evidence either of trolling or of, well, you get it.