Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Libertine Seguros]

A month before that kennaugh was the potential contender (though even that was a massive stretch) and neither Wiggins nor froome were mentioned. Even wiggos friend rob hales laughed at the idea of him being able to finish top 20.

Oh and there's no such thing as a 1 hit wonder. Unless they crash or something, then if they 1 day can push out all those watts on a climb and the next year they can't, or vice versa, it's because of a sudden start/ stop point in the doping.

I think because of the characteristics of the 2009 Tour, there was the possibility of a "one-hit wonder" in Wiggins; the race was neutered until the Pyrenées, and while he had surprised by not getting dropped to Arcalis and not losing much to Verbier, the rest of the Pyrenées were soft-pedalled and he lost a few minutes in the only real multi-climb stage (Le Grand Bornand). Throw in a GC-settling TTT and chronic underperformances from Menchov, Evans, Sastre and Pellizotti and you start to think, can he really repeat that, especially on a new team without the experienced hands like Christian Vande Velde to help guide him? There was also a lot of feeling that teams hadn't put pressure on him because they didn't fear him, because they didn't expect him to do well in the mountains and so it was only when he was still hanging on late in the race that they pushed on to attack him, and promptly distanced the guy. Now that he was a marked man, and the better climbers knew that he could hang in there, surely they would know they had to attack him earlier?

The 2010 Tour seemed to see a return to where we might have expected of Wiggins in a more standard Tour route - still a much improved climber over the pre-2009 model, but seemingly in line with what the 2009 model could have achieved in a more normal Tour. It wasn't quite the same as a one-hit wonder à la Arroyo, somebody from the fringes of the top 10 who was given a gift of time that took him to the podium and was unceremoniously dumped back to the fringes of the top 10 where he belonged a year later, I accept. And in retrospect, certainly it's hard to consider that that kind of jump in climbing prowess would just return to pre-2009 levels without there being some kind of doping discussion there being behind it.

 

[JimmyFingers]

Brailsford latest trade is 3 wins in 3 years with 3 different riders. Presumably he is now offering a deal to "the French" to make it 4 and 4. It's mind boggling even to Americans. Nobody would attempt such a play other than a Brit.

Excuse me? How so exactly? You seem very keen to make some very generic statements regarding the Brits. And do you speak for America too? The forum is lucky to have you. FYI Porte hasn't won yet, but don't let that get in the way of your xenophobic posting.

 

[JimmyFingers]

Back in late 2009 when Sky was first being set up, and nobody knew if Wiggins was a one-hit wonder or not, Kennaugh WAS the next GT winner in waiting. He was the British rider (at least, the British MALE rider) who had genuinely shown climbing talent and was seen as a prospect for the future who could, if nurtured, turn into a genuine GC contender. I've even been a bit concerned about how slowly they've been bringing along Kennaugh considering he was considered to be more of a prospective talent than every other British rider Sky have at this point five years ago.

Froome was barely mentioned even as a dark horse candidate.

And Kennaugh despite showing good form most of the season gets left behind, as does Wiggins, in favour of Porte, who has done nothing beyond a stage win the TDU. Wins Tour of Austria straight away, I hope he leaves Sky soon.

 

[red_flanders]

Kennuagh not a super responder. Like EBH did not repond.

EBH looks for all the world to me like a rider who chose not to dope. WTF, do you think riders don't have a choice? Not sure I get that comment at all.

 

[JimmyFingers]

EBH looks for all the world to me like a rider who chose not to dope. WTF, do you think riders don't have a choice? Not sure I get that comment at all.

Even when he was winning impressive stages in the Tour in 2011?

 

[Benotti69]

EBH looks for all the world to me like a rider who chose not to dope. WTF, do you think riders don't have a choice? Not sure I get that comment at all.

EBH looks to me like a smart guy using more traditional methods of preparation. He looks to have avoided the "Belsen Camp' look.

 

[red_flanders]

Even when he was winning impressive stages in the Tour in 2011?

I don't know what that even means. If you think he's doping, great. Feel free to explain or not.

I think he's a perfect example of a clean rider with talent. Cunego-like (after a certain obvious point) IMO.

 

[red_flanders]

EBH looks to me like a smart guy using more traditional methods of preparation. He looks to have avoided the "Belsen Camp' look.

Why do you think he's doping?

 

[JimmyFingers]

I don't know what that even means. If you think he's doping, great. Feel free to explain or not.

I think he's a perfect example of a clean rider with talent. Cunego-like (after a certain obvious point) IMO.

I'm asking whether you thought his stage wins in the Tour in 2011 were clean. Sorry that was so difficult for you to grasp.

I have no idea if he dopes or not, just wondering your criteria for awarding him the 'cleans' tag. If it is simply poor recent form, as was suggested, I was citing some races where he did very well indeed. If recent form is indicative of cleanliness, I was curious to find out what previous good form indicated.

Or are you just picking riders that you like?

Perfect example? Pray tell what a perfect example of a clean rider with talent is. And don't say Lemond.

 

[Benotti69]

Why do you think he's doping?

I dont see any reason for him to be clean. I have not heard he is adverse to doping.

 

[red_flanders]

I'm asking whether you thought his stage wins in the Tour in 2011 were clean. Sorry that was so difficult for you to grasp.

I have no idea if he dopes or not, just wondering your criteria for awarding him the 'cleans' tag. If it is simply poor recent form, as was suggested, I was citing some races where he did very well indeed. If recent form is indicative of cleanliness, I was curious to find out what previous good form indicated.

Or are you just picking riders that you like?

Perfect example? Pray tell what a perfect example of a clean rider with talent is. And don't say Lemond.

So...you want to accuse me of thinking riders I like are clean, despite having no idea if I like EBH or having any evidence I have ever made such a post. Sorry, not engaging with that, it's trolling.

If you want to make some case that I think riders I like are clean, start a thread. It's got nothing to do with Sky. Oh, that's right. That would be a trolling thread.

If you have some opinion of EBH being clean or not, that would be on-topic and useful.

If I thought you had even a shred of interest in my opinion I'd happily engage with the topic. Clearly you don't.

The idea that EBH is clean isn't exactly revolutionary or uncommonly held.

 

[JimmyFingers]

Big surprise. You want to accuse me of thinking riders I like are clean, despite having no idea if I like EBH or having any evidence I have ever made such a post. Sorry, not engaging with that, it's trolling.

If you want to make some case that I think riders I like are clean, start a thread. It's got nothing to do with Sky. Oh, that's right. That would be a trolling thread.

If you have some opinion of EBH being clean or not, that would be on-topic and useful.

If I thought you had even a shred of interest in my opinion I'd happily engage with the topic. Clearly you don't.

The idea that EBH is clean isn't exactly revolutionary or uncommonly held.

Sorry pal but that is just gibberish, not attempting to engage in debate but just call me a troll is just avoidance. You said EBH was clean, I asked why you said it, I cited some good wins by him during his career and wanted to know if he was riding clean during them.

That is all. You think if you just shout very loudly you can avoid the questions? And I knew you opinion, I asked you to back it up. You didn't. QED.

 

[red_flanders]

I dont see any reason for him to be clean. I have not heard he is adverse to doping.

For my part I see no evidence that he's doping whatsoever. Being on Sky or being a pro cyclist isn't enough for me.

For me, he looks like a talented rider who came on the scene when it was in fact possible to win clean. That he can't anymore is no surprise given what we see now, and his inability to hang at the sharp end in long classics also seems to match up with a rider who's not doping.

By all accounts before he got to the pros he was a very talented prospect with a great finishing kick. Now he can't do anything.

Smells clean to me.

 

[red_flanders]

...gibberish...

Let us know if you have an opinion on EBH. I am not interested in your opinion of me.

 

[King Boonen]

For my part I see no evidence that he's doping whatsoever. Being on Sky or being a pro cyclist isn't enough for me.

For me, he looks like a talented rider who came on the scene when it was in fact possible to win clean. That he can't anymore is no surprise given what we see now, and his inability to hang at the sharp end in long classics also seems to match up with a rider who's not doping.

By all accounts before he got to the pros he was a very talented prospect with a great finishing kick. Now he can't do anything.

Smells clean to me.

If he is clean does he know about any programme Sky may be running? And if he does why would he be keeping quiet?

General questions, not specifically to yourself.

 

[JimmyFingers]

For my part I see no evidence that he's doping whatsoever. Being on Sky or being a pro cyclist isn't enough for me.

For me, he looks like a talented rider who came on the scene when it was in fact possible to win clean. That he can't anymore is no surprise given what we see now, and his inability to hang at the sharp end in long classics also seems to match up with a rider who's not doping.

By all accounts before he got to the pros he was a very talented prospect with a great finishing kick. Now he can't do anything.

Smells clean to me.

So again I ask, how did he smell when he was taking impressive stage wins in the Tour in 2011? You say now he can do anything, yet he has won consistently throughout his career, but now he isn't winning as much he is clean? And has been clean?

 

[red_flanders]

If he is clean does he know about any programme Sky may be running? And if he does why would he be keeping quiet?

General questions, not specifically to yourself.

I understand the questions. Clearly I would have no idea and I am of the opinion that not everyone on Sky is doping, and that there is no incentive for riders to call out their teammates for doing it.

So neither affects my opinion of EBH.

 

[JimmyFingers]

Let us know if you have an opinion on EBH. I am not interested in your opinion of me.

Lol, run from the questions I am asking all you like. You are making statements about a rider, I am asking you to explain them. That is all.

 

[red_flanders]

So again I ask, how did he smell when he was taking impressive stage wins in the Tour in 2011? You say now he can do anything, yet he has won consistently throughout his career, but now he isn't winning as much he is clean? And has been clean?

Question answered in the post to which you responded.

 

[Benotti69]

For my part I see no evidence that he's doping whatsoever. Being on Sky or being a pro cyclist isn't enough for me.

For me, he looks like a talented rider who came on the scene when it was in fact possible to win clean. That he can't anymore is no surprise given what we see now, and his inability to hang at the sharp end in long classics also seems to match up with a rider who's not doping.

By all accounts before he got to the pros he was a very talented prospect with a great finishing kick. Now he can't do anything.

Smells clean to me.

You make a good argument. But i want to see more.

 

[red_flanders]

You make a good argument. But i want to see more.

Fair enough. Simply my opinion, which could be changed by a good argument that he's doping. I wouldn't stake my life on it or anything.

I also think it's consistent with Ashendon's "pockets of dopers on clean teams" view.

 

[King Boonen]

Clearly I would have no idea and I am of the opinion that not everyone on Sky is doping, and that there is no incentive for riders to call out their teammates for doing it.

So neither affects my opinion of EBH.

Just supposition, I'm happy with that and willing to give mine.

If EBH is not doping and knows Sky riders are, then that is a massive scoop and calling out doping is no longer as bad a thing as it used to be. He's not winning the way he was expected to and is slowly getting dropped from the races he wants to ride. I can see every reason he would either come out against certain riders or the team as a whole if he were clean and knew of doping going on at Sky.

I probably agree with you, in that I think riders dope on their own at Sky and as long as they don't trip any tests Sky don't care. I don't think Sky are running a programme themselves as many here do.

But I still think EBH would know about some riders which makes me wonder...

 

[Benotti69]

Fair enough. Simply my opinion, which could be changed by a good argument that he's doping. I wouldn't stake my life on it or anything.

I also think it's consistent with Ashendon's "pockets of dopers on clean teams" view.

Bit tired to go into a lengthy argument.

I also think Ashenden would revise his decision and i wonder how much ABP did UCI release to him, i think they were very cagey about what he saw.

Someone who knows more than most.....

Antoine VAYER @festinaboy · 1h

@oufeh I know more you know, maybe. I don't trust anyone, except my wife.

 

[JimmyFingers]

Question answered in the post to which you responded.

No it really wasn't. But you clearly won't so just

 

[red_flanders]

Just supposition, I'm happy with that and willing to give mine.

If EBH is not doping and knows Sky riders are, then that is a massive scoop and calling out doping is no longer as bad a thing as it used to be. He's not winning the way he was expected to and is slowly getting dropped from the races he wants to ride. I can see every reason he would either come out against certain riders or the team as a whole if he were clean and knew of doping going on at Sky.

I probably agree with you, in that I think riders dope on their own at Sky and as long as they don't trip any tests Sky don't care. I don't think Sky are running a programme themselves as many here do.

But I still think EBH would know about some riders which makes me wonder...

Yeah, I just don't think calling out teammates gets you anything. You've got a contract. These guys are your friends and/or co-workers. You'd have to be (IMO) a pretty major ****** to rat them out, even if you did know, which of course is supposition. What do you gain?

You're ostracized by the team and risk never getting another contract. If you're really not happy about it, just wait for your next contract and try to get on a clean team. If such truly exists in a meaningful sense.