Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[SeriousSam]

Agreed with the above. This does not contradict anything that I have written, and in fact seems perfectly in line with my cheating students example. However, it does nothing to defend your assertion that 1 good result in a season indicates doping. All I'm saying is that your claim that 1 good result in a season indicates doping is unsubstantiated. You have yet to substantiate it.

A good result is evidence of doping, because if you dope, you are more likely to have a good result than if you don't dope ceteris paribus.

That he won this TT is of course just a tiny fraction of the total evidence that Wiggins is a doper.

 

[gooner]

Firstly that wasn't the point of my post. The point was that it isn't the bots who keep kickstarting life back into the thread.


Secondly has Wiggins really had a p!sspoor season or have his team only entered him into p!sspoor races?

Bingo, Avoriaz

Well that aint quite right. The thread started with a bot attacking "Contador fans" (as if every critical voice against Sky is Contador fans). I believe The Vuelta was brought up also.

Check again who posted first after Wiggins' win.

 

[the sceptic]

A good result is evidence of doping, because if you dope, you are more likely to have a good result than if you don't dope ceteris paribus.

That he won this TT is of course just a tiny fraction of the total evidence that Wiggins is a doper.

Even if we pretend 2009-2012 didnt happen and Wiggins is just a TT specialist, Id say this result was still suspicious as hell.

Wiggins in his peak years was never close to winning a long TT, so that he should start doing it now at the ripe age of 34, not normal.

 

[red_flanders]

I'm not sure I believe he did to be honest.


Michael Hutchinson @Doctor_Hutch · Sep 24

Wiggins: 'Knew I could get better of Tony if I could sustain 470-80w (at 72kg) in the final.

Fair point. Do we know what his power worked out to be over the entire race? I wonder what is meant by "in the final". Last split? We can only guess.

Let's just say that 480 is so far over what's reasonably possible (IMO) that I would be surprised if the overall wattage over the whole race wasn't beyond suspicious. But let's definitely look at those number if available. Anyone?

 

[laurel1969]

Wiggins doped to win the worlds.

Deal with it.

 

[GoodTimes]

A good result is evidence of doping, because if you dope, you are more likely to have a good result than if you don't dope ceteris paribus.

That he won this TT is of course just a tiny fraction of the total evidence that Wiggins is a doper.

Hi Sam. For starters, If you read what I've written, you'll see that I have not argued Wiggins is not a doper. I freely admit that I think it is likely that he is. I am not trying to "Clear his name" or anything like that.

What I've written is in response to Benotti's claim. He claimed that a season of poor results with one good result is evidence of doping. I've asked him to substantiate that. Thus far, he has failed to do so.

This does not at all mean that I see the TT result as being un-suspicious. I do. I've said as much. It's just the grounds upon which that suspicion is based that I take issue with. We have not heard any reason why we should think it is suspicious because of how well Wiggins did (or didn't do) in this season's events so far.

Let me give you an example. Suppose somebody wants to go to Australia by foot. They say to you "I was planning on running to Austrailia, but I'm worried that the Kangaroos will eat me". You reply, "durrrr, Australia is on the other side of the ocean brah, you can't run there you know. Also, Kangaroos don't eat people; that's crazy talk." They say "Bud, don't rub it in, I know theres an ocean in the way, but I still say that I can't run there, since there are killer kangaroos". You both agree that it's impossible for buddy to run to Australia. But you disagree on why. Would that not irk you a little bit?

In this case It's even worse since Benotti's reply to my denial of killer kangaroos is more analgolous to the statement "Kangaroos do so kill people, which makes it impossible to run to Australia. As evidence, I will point out that you're dumb, since there's an ocean in between, making it impossible to run there".

Then, Red Flanders jumps in, and says "bud, you can't run to Australia, theres an ocean in the way, thats all that matters". Bennoti says "ya thats right". you now tell me "they're right you know, there is totally an ocean making it impossible to run to Australia". And I'm left scratching my head, as all I've said is that Kangaroos don't eat people, and if you say that they do, people are going to think you're nuts. Which is why people think that the clinic is nuts--because you all think Kangaroos eat poeple!

 

[the sceptic]

Fair point. Do we know what his power worked out to be over the entire race? I wonder what is meant by "in the final". Last split? We can only guess.

Let's just say that 480 is so far over what's reasonably possible (IMO) that I would be surprised if the overall wattage over the whole race wasn't beyond suspicious. But let's definitely look at those number if available. Anyone?

“Without boring you too much with the technicalities I averaged 456 watts for 55 minutes at the Worlds last year against Tony and still finished 1min 20sec behind.

That was in 2011. Depending on what weight you want to believe he has that is still well beyond what is supposed to be humanly possible. And of course we know that he had a massive improvement relative to Martin from 2011-2012.

If I remember correctly he was estimated to have done around 480W at the olympics.(yes, that is 6.9w/kg) Can try to look up the link if anyone cares.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

at the ripe age of 34, not normal.

Since when is 34 a "ripe age"? Horner is 42. That´s a difference of 8 years. The same difference between 26 and 34. IOW, from an age perspective, Wiggins is not suspicious at all. Not even close to consider a correlation between Wiggins´age and suspicious performances.

 

[red_flanders]

That was in 2011. Depending on what weight you want to believe he has that is still well beyond what is supposed to be humanly possible. And of course we know that he had a massive improvement relative to Martin from 2011-2012.

If I remember correctly he was estimated to have done around 480W at the olympics.(yes, that is 6.9w/kg) Can try to look up the link if anyone cares.

That's what I thought. Thanks for posting that info.

 

[Hugh Januss]

Since when is 34 a "ripe age"? Horner is 42. That´s a difference of 8 years. The same difference between 26 and 34. IOW, from an age perspective, Wiggins is not suspicious at all. Not even close to consider a correlation between Wiggins´age and suspicious performances.

Well it's a pretty "ripe" (ie. smells funny) age to be winning your first evah World Time Trial Championship.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Well it's a pretty "ripe" (ie. smells funny) age to be winning your first evah World Time Trial Championship.

It would have been a "ripe age" pre 2011.
And for individual TT´s it would have been pre 2013, when clean 37-year old cyclists won ITTs vs the likes of Malori by 1 1/2 minutes.

evah evah

 

[RownhamHill]

Even if we pretend 2009-2012 didnt happen and Wiggins is just a TT specialist, Id say this result was still suspicious as hell.

Wiggins in his peak years was never close to winning a long TT, so that he should start doing it now at the ripe age of 34, not normal.

You seem to be suggesting the Olympic time trial champion has never won a time trial before. Is that really true?

 

[djpbaltimore]

I think the age argument is somewhat overblown. Yes, it was his first time as the winner, but he has also picked up 2 silver medals in recent years, not including his olympic exploits. Time trialling seems to age well as a skill. Ekimov as a 38 year old in 2004 olympics, or Honchar at the 2006 TDF at 36. Admittedly, the latter is obviously not a good example of performing the feat clean. But, as others have noted, the wattage is more suspicious IMO than his age or his previous results in 2014.

 

[thrawn]

I think the age argument is somewhat overblown. Yes, it was his first time as the winner, but he has also picked up 2 silver medals in recent years, not including his olympic exploits. Time trialling seems to age well as a skill. Ekimov as a 38 year old in 2004 olympics, or Honchar at the 2006 TDF at 36. Admittedly, the latter is obviously not a good example of performing the feat clean. But, as others have noted, the wattage is more suspicious IMO than his age or his previous results in 2014.

I don't think Ekimov is a good example either.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

You seem to be suggesting the Olympic time trial champion has never won a time trial before. Is that really true?

http://www.cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/race.asp?raceid=2010


If that doesnt have ' WC TT in the near future' all over it, what does?

End of debate.

 

[Benotti69]

I think the age argument is somewhat overblown. Yes, it was his first time as the winner, but he has also picked up 2 silver medals in recent years, not including his olympic exploits. Time trialling seems to age well as a skill. Ekimov as a 38 year old in 2004 olympics, or Honchar at the 2006 TDF at 36. Admittedly, the latter is obviously not a good example of performing the feat clean. But, as others have noted, the wattage is more suspicious IMO than his age or his previous results in 2014.

If Ekimov is the benchmark and considered clean we might as well start and end stages at Pharmacies.............

 

[djpbaltimore]

If Ekimov is the benchmark and considered clean we might as well start and end stages at Pharmacies.............

In terms of clean cycling, it is probably not a good example. I did not explain my point well. I think history shows that guys performing well in their mid to upper thirties in the TT is not a new phenomenon (post 2011). Doping was just as present then as it is now among the top competitors.

 

[Benotti69]

In terms of clean cycling, it is probably not a good example. I did not explain my point well. I think history shows that guys performing well in their mid to upper thirties in the TT is not a new phenomenon (post 2011). Doping was just as present then as it is now among the top competitors.

Doping never went away. That is a myth perpetuated by the likes of JV to try and quell the noise after Armstrong left the sport and Vaughters was trying to attract sponsors.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Doping never went away. That is a myth perpetuated by the likes of JV to try and quell the noise after Armstrong left the sport and Vaughters was trying to attract sponsors.

Course not, remember the small pockets of high tech dopers?

That high tech will be carbon copied within a year or two. How many epo derivates? How long did it take to catch CERA fellas? Four years? When will they retest those 2008 Giro samples?

The UCI/WADA have nothing to gain with positives.

 

[the sceptic]

Feargal McKay @fmk_RoI · 1h

Chris Froome's Worlds record:
2008 - DNF;
2009 - DNF;
2011 - DNF;
2012 - DNF;
2013 - DNF;
2014 - DNF.
#Consistency

I think I see a pattern here. The Dawg is worthless when he isnt juiced to the eyeballs.

 

[Ferminal]

It could be badzilla.

 

[Afrank]

He's just not a one day racer, one days don't suit his riding style in any way. GT are his thing through and through.

 

[Digger]

He's just not a one day racer, one days don't suit his riding style in any way. GT are his thing through and through.

post august 2011 yes - pre August 2011 he was sh**

 

[BYOP88]

He's just not a one day racer, one days don't suit his riding style in any way. GT are his thing through and through.

The Automated Jock Strap race was a one day race, to win that you need to be an elite one day racer.

 

[SeriousSam]

Dawg's one day race form and his pre 2011 stage race form are remarkably similar in that he is awful in both.