Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

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Dec 11, 2013
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Benotti69 said:
Froome and Wiggins swore affidavits to Del, Tailwind, Andy4321 and Parker that they were on full Team PED programs.

But those posters are playing silly ******s and wont release the info.:rolleyes:
The irony of this post is of course that the posters you mention aren't the ones claiming to have inside information which they can't release...
 
So how are Team Sky riders getting away with it and other team's riders getting caught then?

I mean if the hottest evidence is Leinders, a TUE and a rider recovered from a blood virus when there's riders on other teams actually sanctioned and serving bans from this year alone, it seems you're chasing the wrong Team at this moment in time if you simply want to expose evidence and links to doping in cycling in 2014.

You've currently got long established cycling Nations and teams tightly linked to their own Federations all simultaneously serving UCI sanctions in the 2014 season currently consisting of 10 Italian riders, 8 Russian riders, 8 Polish riders, 4 Spanish riders and 4 American riders all at the top of this naughty list. These Countries already have riders racing on Team Sky and not a single rider sanctioned while riding for them in 4 years.

To believe the reason no Sky riders have been sanctioned for the last 4 years when others of the same nationality are, is either to believe Sky are cheating using undetectable doping methods which means a whole new era of doping, or Sky are somehow lining the palms of not only WADA & UCI but every national cycling federation and government anti-doping agency on an international scale. I mean you are theoretically arguing that an Italian rider on a British team would be protected by their own federation if racing for British Sky, yet an Italian rider on an Italian team under that same federation which currently has 8 riders serving sanctions and 2 provisional suspensions would be exposed and serve a doping sanction.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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samhocking said:
To believe the reason no Sky riders have been sanctioned for the last 4 years when others of the same nationality are, is either to believe Sky are cheating using undetectable doping methods which means a whole new era of doping, or Sky are somehow lining the palms of not only WADA & UCI but every national cycling federation and government anti-doping agency on an international scale. I mean you are theoretically arguing that an Italian rider on a British team would be protected by their own federation if racing for British Sky, yet an Italian rider on an Italian team under that same federation which currently has 8 riders serving sanctions and 2 provisional suspensions would be exposed and serve a doping sanction.
JTL was basically sanctioned. lost his gig at sly Sky alliteration


it is a combination of all these factors, the Eastern/Central Euros maybe more laissez faire, and thinking it was overtly endorsed. But it is endorsed as bifurcation. Inside, but please hide it and pass the tests for outsiders.

Because the tests are still IQ tests.

And the Eastern/Central Euros, and Asians, have a harder time from the authorities. They are expendable. So if I was either of those nationalities, I would work doubly hard on my IQ tests, and not give the authorities an excuse for expedience.

So I would say all the right things. Basically, you need to speak like Paula Radcliffe and be a massive hypocrite.

But if you look at the history, and think that Type A professional athletes well remunerated, will forgo their just rewards being cheated out of their prizes and salary, one has to be stupid.

All of the academics in PEDs have alluded to this, Hoberman, Yesalis, Savulescu, even Don Catlin for chrissakes.

The "tell" in poker metaphorical terms, is not hard science, its the social science.

Its not your blood bags, your mass spectometer gas chromatography, its not your reticulocytes or hemoglobin or red cell mass. Its the psychology of the peloton at an individual and bloc level.

No one will forgo their just deserts willingly if they are Type A pros. They will hit back hard like Floyd. Yes, Floyd took his punches.

... for a time. When the time promised, if he did the right thing he would be welcomed back to a gig. To the Radioshack opening.


Athletes are not gonna surrender advantage. Now, the Goldman experiment, may not be 100% perfect in the parameters and the structure of the questions, in terms of how we use it here. In pop-culture terms.

But it goes to evidence. It gives a glimpse into the psychology of the athlete. And this is where the true insight, and the bahavioural act and motivation lies. It does not lie in a lab testing blood and urine. Or the lab decieves (lies), It wont tell the true scenario and culture.
 
blackcat said:
JTL was basically sanctioned. lost his gig at sly Sky alliteration

it is a combination of all these factors, the Eastern/Central Euros maybe more laissez faire, and thinking is was overtly endorsed. But it is endorsed as bifurcation. Inside, but please hide it and pass the tests for outsiders.

Because the tests are still IQ tests.

And the Eastern/Central Euros, and Asians, have a harder time from the authorities. They are expendable. So if I was either of those nationalities, I would work doubly hard on my IQ tests, and not give the authorities an excuse for expedience.
...............

......................
But it goes to evidence. It gives a glimpse into the psychology of the athlete. And this is where the true insight, and the bahavioural act and motivation lies. It does not lie in a lab testing blood and urine. Or the lab decieves (lies), It wont tell the true scenario and culture.
I enjoyed that.

Samhocking - just look at the evidence regarding the convicted dopers at two levels. Firstly look at the factual number of positives. As stated it is an IQ test and an IQ test easily defeated with shared knowledge. Vast quantities of testing conducted to catch who ? The big busts have not come not from any testing but from the civil authorities acting outside the sporting arena.

Then look at the dopers. Let's start with the convicted dopers.
Basso, Lance, Tyler, Landis. Virenque is a great one for me right now because I see I still have in my pile of paper cuttings and magazines (that is a tribute to the morons who masquerade as cycling journalists), the Cycling Weekly tribute to him as the greatest ever climber of all time. Page after page of the stuff , all printed many years after Festina. In the 1998 Tour he was pictured in tears, spouting his innocence and how wrong it was for Festina to be ejected from the Tour. Neil Stephens came across for Virenque and the rest of the team about as sincerely as his fellow compatriot Shane Sutton does in the media, backing up his story. Next year Virenque was banned from the Tour, but got the ban overturned using the UCI. He rode the Tour on bike painted in white with red dots and wrote a book in response to "Breaking the Chain", professing his innocence. (I wish I had a recording of Floyd on the BBC Radio 4 Today program professing his innocence.) Later of course it all went wrong and suddenly poor "victim" Virenque needed the support of his fans then, just like Millar for us Brits, the idiots that fell for his story the first time, would rather be taken for suckers all over again, than address their own stupidity in the face of outstanding evidence. So Virenque came back, rode "cleans" in the Lance era and won the balance of his 7 polka dot jerseys. I didn't see it but I understand that now he is doing punditry on the TV.

Now look at the evidence of the non-convicted dopers. Let's keep it away from Wiggo or Froome but with Radcliffe. There is not much doubt it is her name on that small list of "red" category athletes that was put in the lap of the IAAF. If that domino tumbles, it follows that it is her legal team that is acting "super aggressively" and has achieved a lock-down that Ryan Giggs and the MUFC media machine was not able to match. Look at the facts. A whole shed load of convicted, epo fueled African distance runners have not run as fast as "white men can't run" "cleans" Paula did after she found "rounder wheels" and "better pillows" to go from loser to winner. Go back on her twitter feed. I have a screen print of her tweet as the Russian doping story started on German TV saying it "made her sick". Sorry darling, not half as sick as it made you feel before you called your legal attack dogs into action as people began to work out that it was not the obvious face in the frame - Christine O. Radcliffe is not going down because too many people in too many high places have invested so much of themselves in the fantasy. Will Radcillfe defender Oldcrank post up here his change of heart ? Not a chance - it will be "never convicted blah blah blah only gossip blah blah blah" Yeah sure thing - let's keep that Flo-Jo record in the books, it looks so good.

British Cycling have cynically followed the same path. All those knighthoods and awards, not just for the riders but the likes of Keen, Sutton, King as well as Cookson and Brailsford. Keen is there right at the heart of the UK Sport WCPP programs. He had gone once but they brought him back. How dull was that ? Couldn't they work out Boardman ? Or was it the fanboys chose not to engage their brains? If the Boardman domino were to tumble, the Keen domino is linked to it with a taut bit of string. The block of establishment figures that is invested in the Sky myth is enormous.

Then consider downstream from the low grade IQ test, is the process around the tiny bit of evidence that the tests reveal, treated appropriately ? Let's not look back in time, let's go with something entirely in the Cookson "transparent UCI" era. The Tonkov story was making the rounds over 12 months before it crept out. Go on, tell me the way Cookson and his staff handled that was anything other than wholly unsatisfactory.

More importantly, make a case for Cookson's actions after it was put to him that updating a remote PDF, without any notice, was not the way a sport should act when, after a year's speculation and innuendo, the winner of the 2nd most prestigious races in its firmament is finally announced as disqualified for PED infractions. When that was put to him, Cookson acted exactly like Virenque , Stephens, Floyd and Tyler - it isn't me guv - I have done nothing wrong ! Excuse blah blah blah, clutch at straw blah blah blah, look over there blah blah blah.

Samhocking, if you look at what Sky invest in the technology and support for the riders, it requires no significant step to imagine that the riders and team management will invest more than enough to defeat doping controls. Look who is around them. I used Stephens at the top because, again, this will take us away from BC/Sky and see that the same confidence trick is present in Australian sport as it is in Brit, American or Russian sport. Stephens is at the heart of Orica Green edge. The guy told us it straight as only an Aussie can. He was clean as a whistle at Festina, had never seen a PED, none of his team-mates had.

Back to Sky, I have the cutting from 2012 as the USADA files started to be made public "DS Yates steps down on health grounds". Poor guy, he had heart problems. When it was put to them that Yates' departure was related to Lance revelations, Sky denied it - purely health grounds. Oh and in case memory is weak, Cookson was, at that time and had been since inception, on the tiny board of directors of Team Sky and therefore entirely responsible for its commercial and employment matters. It is the season for religion - so glad Yates was "touched" and via a miracle is recovered so he is back as DS for Saxo. It is inconceivable that Sir David and Sutton OBE did not know the track records when they hired that bunch - a long-term team-mate of Lance f f s - hired in 2010. And people actually believe Cookson is the right man for the job ?

Am I saddened, of course I am. But just how good is the internet ? So many have their odd little bit of information. So many eyes and ears out there. On its own, each element is virtually worthless. Together it is entirely different. Cookson is already finding the seat a whole lot hotter than Hein or Pat before him. The landscape is shifting.
 
Jul 7, 2012
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Christophe Bassons take on the current state of pro cycling, taken from his excellent book. 'A Clean Break'. I wonder who he was thinking of when he wrote the first couple of paragraphs? ;)

http://www.amazon.com/Clean-Break-My-Story-ebook/dp/B00KWYKG80

When I look at cycling today, I get the impression that history is repeating itself: riders who are supposed to be rouleurs are climbing passes at the front of the race, and those who are supposed to be climbers are riding time trials at more than 50 kilometres per hour.

But what strikes me more than anything is the morphology of the riders. To win the Tour, it now seems you have to be very slender and have little muscle. These riders don’t look like they could do anything on a bike, but they produce the same power as those in previous generations. All notions about the power to- weight ratio seem to have been overturned.

As I mentioned above, my current position as regional anti-doping representative, with responsibility for implementing anti-doping controls on behalf of the AFLD, enables me to keep abreast of the latest news about substances that can be used by athletes for doping purposes.

Currently, questions are being asked about the extent to which products such as AICAR, GW501516, TP500 and GAS6 are being used. Some of them have already been found during searches of vehicles and have been used by some athletes, doctors and soigneurs. These substances provide an equivalent effect to EPO, because they improve the performance of the athlete by boosting the transport and utilisation of oxygen by the body. Their effect is very well known. The combination of AICAR and TP500, for example, increases the number of mitochondria in the muscles. These cells are in a way little energy plants, which transform substrates (carbohydrates, lipids, proteins) into energy through the use of oxygen. These two products also bring about an increase in lipolysis (the breakdown of ‘fat’ to provide energy). They maintain lipolysis during intense efforts.

To be more specific, when an athlete is riding at 80 per cent of his maximum, in principle he stops burning fat and only burns carbohydrate. By using these products, he can continue to burn fat as well as carbohydrate, even at 95 per cent of his maximum. This additional power, which stems from the use of fat reserves, offers a huge advantage. It is absolutely impossible to achieve naturally.

Meanwhile the public can see another effect of the products in the physical transformation of competitors into athletes who don’t seem very muscular and are very lean. They have a very low fat percentage because they are able to burn all their fats, including those in muscle fibres, and benefit from an increase in energy.

With regard to growth factor GAS6, this allows the secretion of endogenous EPO. It is completely undetectable.

Meanwhile, directeurs sportifs attempt to put forward rational explanations for the performances of their riders as if chanting a mantra. They talk about intense training, reconnaissance of mountain passes in the rain and the fog, about improvements in equipment … These arguments have been heard a thousand times before. The story is beginning again, just as it did 14 years ago with Lance Armstrong and his US Postal team, just as it did with the Festina team.
 
Apr 20, 2012
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The combination of AICAR and TP500, for example, increases the number of mitochondria in the muscles. These cells are in a way little energy plants, which transform substrates (carbohydrates, lipids, proteins) into energy through the use of oxygen. These two products also bring about an increase in lipolysis (the breakdown of ‘fat’ to provide energy). They maintain lipolysis during intense efforts.
Look:
http://www.53x12.com/do/show?page=indepth.view&id=147

Hence the hypothesis that Nibali actually expressed an incredibly high LIPID POWER that has allowed him to consume less glycogen than calculated above.
I knew I read something like that before, good thing the Aicar test is a treshold test...
 
May 26, 2010
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samhocking said:
What's 'theory' got to do with it? His sanction is the reality of his doping in a previous team, not from his time at Sky. This is fact, no theory is required.
Really, you do realise he spent a lot of the season of his doping training with Sky?

I look forward to your response to Freddy....:)
 
samhocking said:
I doubt very much he was clean after all those victories at Endura. It's impossible to know because he wasn't in the bio passport while winning at Endura. That first bio passort test he tested positive - game over!
So, British Cycling he raised the flag. Good.
 
Robert21 said:
Christophe Bassons take on the current state of pro cycling, taken from his excellent book. 'A Clean Break'. I wonder who he was thinking of when he wrote the first couple of paragraphs? ;)

http://www.amazon.com/Clean-Break-My-Story-ebook/dp/B00KWYKG80
Ha beautiful. Absolutely beautiful.

Basically a rehash of all the points raised on here 100 times before by those who doubt Sky.

Thanks for bringing it to my attention.
 
Freddythefrog said:
I enjoyed that.

Samhocking - just look at the evidence regarding the convicted dopers at two levels. Firstly look at the factual number of positives. As stated it is an IQ test and an IQ test easily defeated with shared knowledge. Vast quantities of testing conducted to catch who ? The big busts have not come not from any testing but from the civil authorities acting outside the sporting arena.

Then look at the dopers. Let's start with the convicted dopers.
Basso, Lance, Tyler, Landis. Virenque is a great one for me right now because I see I still have in my pile of paper cuttings and magazines (that is a tribute to the morons who masquerade as cycling journalists), the Cycling Weekly tribute to him as the greatest ever climber of all time. Page after page of the stuff , all printed many years after Festina. In the 1998 Tour he was pictured in tears, spouting his innocence and how wrong it was for Festina to be ejected from the Tour. Neil Stephens came across for Virenque and the rest of the team about as sincerely as his fellow compatriot Shane Sutton does in the media, backing up his story. Next year Virenque was banned from the Tour, but got the ban overturned using the UCI. He rode the Tour on bike painted in white with red dots and wrote a book in response to "Breaking the Chain", professing his innocence. (I wish I had a recording of Floyd on the BBC Radio 4 Today program professing his innocence.) Later of course it all went wrong and suddenly poor "victim" Virenque needed the support of his fans then, just like Millar for us Brits, the idiots that fell for his story the first time, would rather be taken for suckers all over again, than address their own stupidity in the face of outstanding evidence. So Virenque came back, rode "cleans" in the Lance era and won the balance of his 7 polka dot jerseys. I didn't see it but I understand that now he is doing punditry on the TV.

Now look at the evidence of the non-convicted dopers. Let's keep it away from Wiggo or Froome but with Radcliffe. There is not much doubt it is her name on that small list of "red" category athletes that was put in the lap of the IAAF. If that domino tumbles, it follows that it is her legal team that is acting "super aggressively" and has achieved a lock-down that Ryan Giggs and the MUFC media machine was not able to match. Look at the facts. A whole shed load of convicted, epo fueled African distance runners have not run as fast as "white men can't run" "cleans" Paula did after she found "rounder wheels" and "better pillows" to go from loser to winner. Go back on her twitter feed. I have a screen print of her tweet as the Russian doping story started on German TV saying it "made her sick". Sorry darling, not half as sick as it made you feel before you called your legal attack dogs into action as people began to work out that it was not the obvious face in the frame - Christine O. Radcliffe is not going down because too many people in too many high places have invested so much of themselves in the fantasy. Will Radcillfe defender Oldcrank post up here his change of heart ? Not a chance - it will be "never convicted blah blah blah only gossip blah blah blah" Yeah sure thing - let's keep that Flo-Jo record in the books, it looks so good.

British Cycling have cynically followed the same path. All those knighthoods and awards, not just for the riders but the likes of Keen, Sutton, King as well as Cookson and Brailsford. Keen is there right at the heart of the UK Sport WCPP programs. He had gone once but they brought him back. How dull was that ? Couldn't they work out Boardman ? Or was it the fanboys chose not to engage their brains? If the Boardman domino were to tumble, the Keen domino is linked to it with a taut bit of string. The block of establishment figures that is invested in the Sky myth is enormous.

Then consider downstream from the low grade IQ test, is the process around the tiny bit of evidence that the tests reveal, treated appropriately ? Let's not look back in time, let's go with something entirely in the Cookson "transparent UCI" era. The Tonkov story was making the rounds over 12 months before it crept out. Go on, tell me the way Cookson and his staff handled that was anything other than wholly unsatisfactory.

More importantly, make a case for Cookson's actions after it was put to him that updating a remote PDF, without any notice, was not the way a sport should act when, after a year's speculation and innuendo, the winner of the 2nd most prestigious races in its firmament is finally announced as disqualified for PED infractions. When that was put to him, Cookson acted exactly like Virenque , Stephens, Floyd and Tyler - it isn't me guv - I have done nothing wrong ! Excuse blah blah blah, clutch at straw blah blah blah, look over there blah blah blah.

Samhocking, if you look at what Sky invest in the technology and support for the riders, it requires no significant step to imagine that the riders and team management will invest more than enough to defeat doping controls. Look who is around them. I used Stephens at the top because, again, this will take us away from BC/Sky and see that the same confidence trick is present in Australian sport as it is in Brit, American or Russian sport. Stephens is at the heart of Orica Green edge. The guy told us it straight as only an Aussie can. He was clean as a whistle at Festina, had never seen a PED, none of his team-mates had.

Back to Sky, I have the cutting from 2012 as the USADA files started to be made public "DS Yates steps down on health grounds". Poor guy, he had heart problems. When it was put to them that Yates' departure was related to Lance revelations, Sky denied it - purely health grounds. Oh and in case memory is weak, Cookson was, at that time and had been since inception, on the tiny board of directors of Team Sky and therefore entirely responsible for its commercial and employment matters. It is the season for religion - so glad Yates was "touched" and via a miracle is recovered so he is back as DS for Saxo. It is inconceivable that Sir David and Sutton OBE did not know the track records when they hired that bunch - a long-term team-mate of Lance f f s - hired in 2010. And people actually believe Cookson is the right man for the job ?

Am I saddened, of course I am. But just how good is the internet ? So many have their odd little bit of information. So many eyes and ears out there. On its own, each element is virtually worthless. Together it is entirely different. Cookson is already finding the seat a whole lot hotter than Hein or Pat before him. The landscape is shifting.
What exactly is your point? I can't find a single line that actually relates to what I discussed.
 

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