Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[ray j willings]

Re: Re:

TWH "Does it make sense that people will drink beer and smoke cigarettes but not use heroin or cocaine?"

That is just a sound bite that has no relevance at all. Nonsense.

 

[TailWindHome]

I give in
You win.

If a rider takes a legal substance to improve performance he must also be taking illegal substances to improve performance.

 

[ray j willings]

Re:

I give in
You win.

If a rider takes a legal substance to improve performance he must also be taking illegal substances to improve performance.

Many thanks

 

[the sceptic]

Re:

I give in
You win.

If a rider takes a legal substance to improve performance he must also be taking illegal substances to improve performance.

welcome to pro cycling.

 

[alspacka]

Re: Sky

I have no issue at all with sky using anything that isn't prohibited, and don't see it as an indication of anything sinister. There are enough of those as it is. This is a mere distraction.

One question, tangential. When they decided to create a superhuman in 2011, why Froome? It was obviously going to be harder to explain than Uran, maybe Kennaugh or Thomas. Would've saved some trouble with tropical diseases, sandshoes etc and more importantly minimised public doubt. CF just a freakishly amazing responder that they didn't anticipate? Out on a non-team permitted limb?

edit - For me the fact it looks so ridiculous gives froome slightly more (than absolute zero) credence. Surely they would want to be as inconspicuous as possible with their mega doper?

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

To me it makes no sense at all that sky would only dope with things that aren't yet on the banned list.

for one, why would they stop there and not use illegal substances too? they have morals? .

Does it make sense that people will drink beer and smoke cigarettes but not use heroin or cocaine?

Of course that makes sense. What exactly would those people gain from switching to cocaine or heroin???

#allovertheplace

nothing
that's why no one uses illegal recreational drugs

jesus

Not Jesus, but Tom Boonen got busted for Cocaine.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Sky

I have no issue at all with sky using anything that isn't prohibited, and don't see it as an indication of anything sinister. There are enough of those as it is. This is a mere distraction.

One question, tangential. When they decided to create a superhuman in 2011, why Froome? It was obviously going to be harder to explain than Uran, maybe Kennaugh or Thomas. Would've saved some trouble with tropical diseases, sandshoes etc and more importantly minimised public doubt. CF just a freakishly amazing responder that they didn't anticipate? Out on a non-team permitted limb?

The mere fact that Sky have not declared their 'legal' substance usage is everything sinister. Their refusal to release Froome's numbers to all is everything sinister. Their lies about Froome racing in sandshoes shoes the lies they are content to perpetuate......etc etc

 

[D-Queued]

Re: Re:

To me it makes no sense at all that sky would only dope with things that aren't yet on the banned list.

for one, why would they stop there and not use illegal substances too? they have morals? .

Does it make sense that people will drink beer and smoke cigarettes but not use heroin or cocaine?

Of course that makes sense. What exactly would those people gain from switching to cocaine or heroin???

#allovertheplace

nothing
that's why no one uses illegal recreational drugs

jesus

Not Jesus, but Tom Boonen got busted for Cocaine.

And, as an odd coincidence, cocaine apparently helps with steroid crash.

Apparently steroid users (including corticosteroids) tend to use these things in cycles.

Cyclists cycle corticosteroids.

Corticosteroid cycling cyclists crash.

Crashed corticosteroid cycling cyclists coke-up.

Dave.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Would be good for someone to clarify with one of these "Not on the list" claimants that that "list" includes the drug classes that are described, but that do not actually have specific named drugs "listed".

eg: The Clear was not listed, was undetectable for a time, but is a steroid.

Does this claim of "not on the list" include drugs like The Clear, where it's not specifically named, but included in the class of steroids?

 

[TailWindHome]

Re:

Would be good for someone to clarify with one of these "Not on the list" claimants that that "list" includes the drug classes that are described, but that do not actually have specific named drugs "listed".

eg: The Clear was not listed, was undetectable for a time, but is a steroid.

Does this claim of "not on the list" include drugs like The Clear, where it's not specifically named, but included in the class of steroids?

I think everyone gets that.

 

[TailWindHome]

Re: Re:

Not Jesus, but Tom Boonen got busted for Cocaine.

Jesus had friends in high places.
Protected see?

 

[sniper]

Re:

Would be good for someone to clarify with one of these "Not on the list" claimants that that "list" includes the drug classes that are described, but that do not actually have specific named drugs "listed".

eg: The Clear was not listed, was undetectable for a time, but is a steroid.

Does this claim of "not on the list" include drugs like The Clear, where it's not specifically named, but included in the class of steroids?

Is there any class of drugs on the list that could cover tramadol, or comes close to covering it?

would also like to know: how much worse (i.e. stronger, more chemical, more enhancing) is tramadol compared to paracetamol? (i know i could look this up myself, but perhaps somebody in the know can help me out)

 

[Catwhoorg]

Tramadol is an opoid painkiller.
The nearest you can come is under S7 narcotics, which lists several opoids, but does not have any catch all type verbiage.

There is no dispute by anti-doping authorities that it is allowed under the current doping rules.


Steroids have had a catch all "and other substances with similar chemical structure or similar pharmacological effect(s)." for a long time (since the first WADA code in 2004 for sure, probably before that in some sports).

I think there is little doubt that the Clear would have fallen foul of this clause had one been in place, and no matter is on the 2015 list.
(What years are we talking about here as I recall that was all pre-WADA ?)

 

[gillan1969]

Re: Re:

Would be good for someone to clarify with one of these "Not on the list" claimants that that "list" includes the drug classes that are described, but that do not actually have specific named drugs "listed".

eg: The Clear was not listed, was undetectable for a time, but is a steroid.

Does this claim of "not on the list" include drugs like The Clear, where it's not specifically named, but included in the class of steroids?

Is there any class of drugs on the list that could cover tramadol, or comes close to covering it?

would also like to know: how much worse (i.e. stronger, more chemical, more enhancing) is tramadol compared to paracetamol? (i know i could look this up myself, but perhaps somebody in the know can help me out)

well Frankie Boyle's show was called Tramadol Nights for a good reason...it wasn't called Paracetemol Nights...

 

[Benotti69]

Tramadol is not the 'hardest' drug being taken in the peloton and i guess that the hard stuff makes tramadol look like popping M&Ms. That riders are willing to give a little info about tramadol also points to this.

 

[sniper]

Re:

Tramadol is an opoid painkiller.
The nearest you can come is under S7 narcotics, which lists several opoids, but does not have any catch all type verbiage.

There is no dispute by anti-doping authorities that it is allowed under the current doping rules.


Steroids have had a catch all "and other substances with similar chemical structure or similar pharmacological effect(s)." for a long time (since the first WADA code in 2004 for sure, probably before that in some sports).

I think there is little doubt that the Clear would have fallen foul of this clause had one been in place, and no matter is on the 2015 list.
(What years are we talking about here as I recall that was all pre-WADA ?)

cheers, Catwhoorg. As always Crystal (the) Clear.

 

[sniper]

Re:

well Frankie Boyle's show was called Tramadol Nights for a good reason...it wasn't called Paracetemol Nights...

like popping M&Ms.

That riders are willing to give a little info about tramadol also points to this.

agreed.

 

[Benotti69]

Tells us volumes that Nico Roche did not retweet the article on him by Kimmage in the Independent a newspaper he writes for.

 

[King Boonen]

Re: Re:

would also like to know: how much worse (i.e. stronger, more chemical, more enhancing) is tramadol compared to paracetamol? (i know i could look this up myself, but perhaps somebody in the know can help me out)

Tramadol's analgesic effects are more potent than codiene, similar to pethidine (which is banned in competition), but it's dose dependent and studies have tended to be small compared to paracetamol so NNT values vary.

It's worth noting that any opioids listed are only banned in competition under S7, so I think any of them could be used to aid recovery but I'm not sure what period "in competition" covers with respect to stage races.

Catwhoorg answered everything else I think.

 

[Archibald]

Re: Re:

would also like to know: how much worse (i.e. stronger, more chemical, more enhancing) is tramadol compared to paracetamol? (i know i could look this up myself, but perhaps somebody in the know can help me out)

Tramadol's analgesic effects are more potent than codiene, similar to pethidine (which is banned in competition), but it's dose dependent and studies have tended to be small compared to paracetamol so NNT values vary.

It's worth noting that any opioids listed are only banned in competition under S7, so I think any of them could be used to aid recovery but I'm not sure what period "in competition" covers with respect to stage races.

Catwhoorg answered everything else I think.

" On a dose-by-dose basis tramadol has about one-tenth the potency of morphine and is approximately equally potent when compared to pethidine and codeine.

For pain moderate in severity its effectiveness is equivalent to that of morphine; for severe pain it is less effective than morphine. These painkilling effects peak at about 3 hours, post-oral administration and last for approximately 6 hours."

 

[gillan1969]

Re: Re:

[
I'm not trolling, and I've been following cycling for 30 of my 39 years, as a police officer I bow down to nobody with my levels of cynicism.
but this thread reminds me of the scene from the simpsons where lionel hutz is in court -

Judge Mr. Hutz we've been in here for four hours. Do you have any evidence at all?
Hutz: Well, Your Honor. We've plenty of hearsay and conjecture. Those are, kinds of evidence.

as i'm not a 13 year old girl I don't have favorites, I don't have a team (following a particular team in cycling is an exercise in futility since they tend to last about 13 seconds), I just love cycling. what I hate is people spouting rubbish as facts.[/quote]

sort of...only it more obvious than that...its like the classic tax case where the defendent has no visible income and yet has 10 flash cars several large houses etc etc. Froome had no visible means to derive world class form in August 2011 then bam all of a sudden, form beyond his wildest dreams.........the question remains where did he get it from.....

 

[TourOfSardinia]

Wiggins out of E3 Harelbeke ?

Is this "Wiggins out of E3 Harelbeke" due to a race selection policy a euphemism for something
more dodgy?

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/wiggins-out-of-e3-harelbeke-but-may-race-gent-wevelgem

 

[gillan1969]

Re: Wiggins out of E3 Harelbeke ?

Is this "Wiggins out of E3 Harelbeke" due to a race selection policy a euphemism for something
more dodgy?

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/wiggins-out-of-e3-harelbeke-but-may-race-gent-wevelgem

the way sky have treated wiggins (after he delivered so much for them in 2012) is nothing short of mysterious...

plus of course the way wiggins has managed his career since winning a GT is nothing short of mysterious

 

[MartinGT]

Re: Sky

But he will go on and win PR.......

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Clearly what a rider of world champion and Tour winner level should do is close out his career on a pro conti or conti team. Voluntarily. Right?

RIGHT!?

ffs.