Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[robertmooreheadlane]

So Sir DB goes to the local uni where he lives rather than use a top uni like kings or UCL or Imperial where these studies would have garnered any weight and scientific relevance, But then maybe he doesn't have any friends at those uni's who can "collaborate" with him and his team

 

[King Boonen]

Re:

So Sir DB goes to the local uni where he lives rather than use a top uni like kings or UCL or Imperial where these studies would have garnered any weight and scientific relevance, But then maybe he doesn't have any friends at those uni's who can "collaborate" with him and his team

Why have you picked those universities? And what is your problem with Sheffield?

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

So Sir DB goes to the local uni where he lives rather than use a top uni like kings or UCL or Imperial where these studies would have garnered any weight and scientific relevance, But then maybe he doesn't have any friends at those uni's who can "collaborate" with him and his team

Why have you picked those universities? And what is your problem with Sheffield?

I think it's an interesting comment from Robertmrhdln, i wasn't aware it was DB's home university.
In press releases he promised "fully independent research" on Henao's blood.
Not that it didn't stink massively already without this data point. But still, makes the whole thing stink even worse.
He c/should have gone elsewhere, if only to avoid the sense of a possible conflict of interest.

btw, Sheffield is mid-pack on UK's Univeristy ranking for Medicine.
http://www.thecompleteuniversityguide.c ... s=Medicine

 

[skippythepinhead]

Re: Re:

So Sir DB goes to the local uni where he lives rather than use a top uni like kings or UCL or Imperial where these studies would have garnered any weight and scientific relevance, But then maybe he doesn't have any friends at those uni's who can "collaborate" with him and his team

Why have you picked those universities? And what is your problem with Sheffield?

Where is the report?

*crickets

That is my problem with Sheffield.

 

[King Boonen]

Re: Re:

So Sir DB goes to the local uni where he lives rather than use a top uni like kings or UCL or Imperial where these studies would have garnered any weight and scientific relevance, But then maybe he doesn't have any friends at those uni's who can "collaborate" with him and his team

Why have you picked those universities? And what is your problem with Sheffield?

I think it's an interesting comment from Robertmrhdln, i wasn't aware it was DB's home university.
Sheffield is mid-pack on UK's Univeristy ranking for Medicine.
http://www.thecompleteuniversityguide.c ... s=Medicine
Not that it didn't stink massively already without this data point. But still, makes the whole thing stink even worse.

In the 2014 REF Sheffield were number one for the impact and quality of there medical research. They have an extremely strong Biomedical Sciences section and produce world leading research in a wide range of areas applicable to work like this. They are also attached via close links to Sheffield Hallam which is consistently rated as one of the best Sports Science University courses in the UK.

It is a very good choice to be involved in this kind of work.

 

[Rollthedice]

Bottom line with Henao, except Sky and friends nobody knows what exactly was the problem. Am I right?

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

So Sir DB goes to the local uni where he lives rather than use a top uni like kings or UCL or Imperial where these studies would have garnered any weight and scientific relevance, But then maybe he doesn't have any friends at those uni's who can "collaborate" with him and his team

Why have you picked those universities? And what is your problem with Sheffield?

I think it's an interesting comment from Robertmrhdln, i wasn't aware it was DB's home university.
Sheffield is mid-pack on UK's Univeristy ranking for Medicine.
http://www.thecompleteuniversityguide.c ... s=Medicine
Not that it didn't stink massively already without this data point. But still, makes the whole thing stink even worse.

In the 2014 REF Sheffield were number one for the impact and quality of there medical research. They have an extremely strong Biomedical Sciences section and produce world leading research in a wide range of areas applicable to work like this. They are also attached via close links to Sheffield Hallam which is consistently rated as one of the best Sports Science University courses in the UK.

It is a very good choice to be involved in this kind of work.

ok, so quality is not the issue.
main problem remains: it's his home university, whereas he promised "independent research" on henao's blood. If only to avoid the nasty taste of biased research he should have picked another institute.

 

[sniper]

Re:

Bottom line with Henao, except Sky and friends nobody knows what exactly was the problem. Am I right?

them, plus some Sheffield students who got paid by Sky to chill in Colombia for a few weeks and no doubt were eager to get to the bottom of Henao's dodgy blood values.

 

[King Boonen]

Re: Re:

ok, so quality is not the issue.
main problem remains: it's his home university, whereas he promised "independent research" on henao's blood. If only to avoid the nasty taste of biased research he should have picked another institute.

This is calling into question the independence of the researchers, which is extremely unfair. Sky are not paying them, if they paid for anything it would have to be declared in any published work, and any publications would be scrutinised by the community. Evidence of foul play, covering up or falsifying results invariably comes out and then that's that researchers career done and dusted. This is even more likely in that many journals now require raw data to be made available upon publication. The implication that they are likely to do any of this, just because Brailsford happened to attend that university, is massively unfair.

To the general fan maybe it would have been better to go somewhere else, but it's perfectly possible, perhaps even probable, that Sheffield is the best place to do this research. Even if he went elsewhere you will invariably find ties to WADA, the UCI and British cycling somewhere. The best people get the work, it's the same in any research environment. I do get the point though.


Really, my main bone of contention was that the comment I replied to seemed to show a lack of knowledge about the research community in the UK and just be an uninformed dig.

 

[sniper]

am in a hurry so quick response:
good post, but mind that i'm not implicating/implying their research is biased. Merely that it would've been up to Brailsford to avoid leaving room for such accusations in the first place. But well, maybe that's a bit too much to ask.

Anyway, how much time you suggest we give them for the publication before we can conclude that it was just a smokescreen?

 

[Campervan man]

Re: Re:

So Sir DB goes to the local uni where he lives rather than use a top uni like kings or UCL or Imperial where these studies would have garnered any weight and scientific relevance, But then maybe he doesn't have any friends at those uni's who can "collaborate" with him and his team

Why have you picked those universities? And what is your problem with Sheffield?

I think it's an interesting comment from Robertmrhdln, i wasn't aware it was DB's home university.
Sheffield is mid-pack on UK's Univeristy ranking for Medicine.
http://www.thecompleteuniversityguide.c ... s=Medicine
Not that it didn't stink massively already without this data point. But still, makes the whole thing stink even worse.

In the 2014 REF Sheffield were number one for the impact and quality of there medical research. They have an extremely strong Biomedical Sciences section and produce world leading research in a wide range of areas applicable to work like this. They are also attached via close links to Sheffield Hallam which is consistently rated as one of the best Sports Science University courses in the UK.

It is a very good choice to be involved in this kind of work.

ok, so quality is not the issue.
main problem remains: it's his home university, whereas he promised "independent research" on henao's blood. If only to avoid the nasty taste of biased research he should have picked another institute.

It's not a home university as his home city is Derby, plus Loughborough has a good university closer than Sheffield but whatever. Any way you look at Sky sniper you do so with an agenda. I'm a non believer and firm that Froome,Wiggins,Porte are not normal transformations amongst a hundred Sky lies, but state things correctly. Sheffield is NOT Sir Dave's home town, currently at least.

 

[skippythepinhead]

Re: Re:

ok, so quality is not the issue.
main problem remains: it's his home university, whereas he promised "independent research" on henao's blood. If only to avoid the nasty taste of biased research he should have picked another institute.

This is calling into question the independence of the researchers, which is extremely unfair. Sky are not paying them, if they paid for anything it would have to be declared in any published work, and any publications would be scrutinised by the community. Evidence of foul play, covering up or falsifying results invariably comes out and then that's that researchers career done and dusted. This is even more likely in that many journals now require raw data to be made available upon publication. The implication that they are likely to do any of this, just because Brailsford happened to attend that university, is massively unfair.

To the general fan maybe it would have been better to go somewhere else, but it's perfectly possible, perhaps even probable, that Sheffield is the best place to do this research. Even if he went elsewhere you will invariably find ties to WADA, the UCI and British cycling somewhere. The best people get the work, it's the same in any research environment. I do get the point though.


Really, my main bone of contention was that the comment I replied to seemed to show a lack of knowledge about the research community in the UK and just be an uninformed dig.

What research? Does it even exist?

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Were the researchers at the camp? OR did someone take "blood readings" and send them to the research team back in the UK?

Coz I do not think you need to do anything to any researcher anywhere to make that result fit any narrative you choose.

 

[Catwhoorg]

Cookson Jr was with Henao as he was the usual point of contact for the Colombians (He is fluent in Spanish)

I don't think any researchers were on-site, but the decided the testing and schedule.

 

[robertmooreheadlane]

Sorry my bad
Poor choice of words

It is not his home uni you are right but the comment I made was that it is the universtiy where they have done a lot of work dwith BC when he was there and with Sky latterly,
He is also very proud of yorkshire and has put a lot of time and energy into the county

My point as was made better by others was that there are other research facilities that Sky could have picked which would have been truly independent and that would have saved anyone from having any suggestions of impropriety.

Not calling into question the uni or the research team.

Rob

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

It's not a home university as his home city is Derby

I don't care what his home town is.
I don't know the exact definition of 'home university', but I do know that 'home city' is not a relevant criterium.
regardless, no time to do semantics.
main point is DB did an MBA at Sheffield University.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

What research? Does it even exist?

crickets it is.

 

[Electress]

Re: Re:

So Sir DB goes to the local uni where he lives rather than use a top uni like kings or UCL or Imperial where these studies would have garnered any weight and scientific relevance, But then maybe he doesn't have any friends at those uni's who can "collaborate" with him and his team

Why have you picked those universities? And what is your problem with Sheffield?

I think it's an interesting comment from Robertmrhdln, i wasn't aware it was DB's home university.
Sheffield is mid-pack on UK's Univeristy ranking for Medicine.
http://www.thecompleteuniversityguide.c ... s=Medicine
Not that it didn't stink massively already without this data point. But still, makes the whole thing stink even worse.

In the 2014 REF Sheffield were number one for the impact and quality of there medical research. They have an extremely strong Biomedical Sciences section and produce world leading research in a wide range of areas applicable to work like this. They are also attached via close links to Sheffield Hallam which is consistently rated as one of the best Sports Science University courses in the UK.

It is a very good choice to be involved in this kind of work.

Ditto this. I didn't go there, but Sheffield is an excellent uni for medicine and (loathe Sky though I do and trust Sir DofB not one iota), I can't really criticise his choice here. But some replicates / duplicates sent blind to other labs would have given some verification to any lab work.

But as someone else points out, there are plenty of ways to ensure that what you send will pass a test, if we're being cynical.

Please tell me that Brailsford doesn't come from Yorkshire?! I thought he was beyond the border?

 

[bigcog]

Re: Re:

So Sir DB goes to the local uni where he lives rather than use a top uni like kings or UCL or Imperial where these studies would have garnered any weight and scientific relevance, But then maybe he doesn't have any friends at those uni's who can "collaborate" with him and his team

Why have you picked those universities? And what is your problem with Sheffield?

I think it's an interesting comment from Robertmrhdln, i wasn't aware it was DB's home university.
Sheffield is mid-pack on UK's Univeristy ranking for Medicine.
http://www.thecompleteuniversityguide.c ... s=Medicine
Not that it didn't stink massively already without this data point. But still, makes the whole thing stink even worse.

In the 2014 REF Sheffield were number one for the impact and quality of there medical research. They have an extremely strong Biomedical Sciences section and produce world leading research in a wide range of areas applicable to work like this. They are also attached via close links to Sheffield Hallam which is consistently rated as one of the best Sports Science University courses in the UK.

It is a very good choice to be involved in this kind of work.

ok, so quality is not the issue.
main problem remains: it's his home university, whereas he promised "independent research" on henao's blood. If only to avoid the nasty taste of biased research he should have picked another institute.

So you are suggesting the University of Sheffield would risk their research reputation to ensure Sky's results/research is "all good" ? Yes that's really going to happen at university which is research driven and has a good reputation to protect.

 

[ray j willings]

I thought DB worked in a bike shop for years ?

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

So you are suggesting the University of Sheffield would risk their research reputation to ensure Sky's results/research is "all good" ? Yes that's really going to happen at university which is research driven and has a good reputation to protect.

Scientists tell lies!!! NEVER!!!!!

Cigarette smoking was known to be harmful a long, long time ago. Wonder who suppressed that research?

Scientists don't do 'independent research'. It has to be paid for and who pays the piper picks the tune.

 

[Campervan man]

Re: Re:

It's not a home university as his home city is Derby

I don't care what his home town is.
I don't know the exact definition of 'home university', but I do know that 'home city' is not a relevant criterium.
regardless, no time to do semantics.
main point is DB did an MBA at Sheffield University.

As far as that point goes it's interesting that they/he chose a uni that he's a link with. I wasn't trying to argue with anyone I was just pointing out his home city and the place which he grew up in is not far away at all. Hes not from Yorkshire as far as I'm aware.
Of course a better suited test (independent) lab would've been better! But that's not suited to his style of control.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

So you are suggesting the University of Sheffield would risk their research reputation to ensure Sky's results/research is "all good" ? Yes that's really going to happen at university which is research driven and has a good reputation to protect.

disagree.

Universities these days are all about publicity as well you know. Have you noticed all the honorary doctorates awarded to people with nothing, nada, zero to say on a scientific level?

Sir Dave affiliating in the press with Sheffield Uni is good press. End of.
The only risk would be to publish something that Sir Dave doesn't agree with.

 

[hrotha]

Why would you invite more people into the conspiracy when you could just as well... not intend to publish anything?

edit: This reminds me of Armstrong's much-publicized Catlin-run internal controls in 2009. By February, they had parted ways, the PR effect already achieved.

 

[sniper]

Re:

Why would you invite more people into the conspiracy when you could just as well... not intend to publish anything?

Not sure if I get your point. (edit: I now realize your post was directed at Campervan, in which case: good point)

Henao's case is a bit of a mystery (my guess is he was glowing so hard that Sky didn't dare take the risk of letting him ride and get tested; there might be other scenarios), but it's likely that we wouldn't have heard anything about it if his agent hadn't told the press about the anomalous values (see quote below). That's when Sky had to come up with a good cover story and look pro-active, which is when the "independent research of Henao's blood" was promised. So why not include the University of Sheffield in that story to give it more body? DB has all the contacts he needs there. Bigcoc and some other posters suggested that, if (A) this turns out to be just a coordinated smokescreen with no actual report as end-product, then (B) it can/might/will become bad press for Sheffield Uni. While I am assuming (A) to be the case, I don't think it automatically leads to (B).

We need to understand these readings better," team manager Dave Brailsford said in a team press release.

The announcement comes after Gazzetta dello Sport quoted Henao's agent as saying that his rider was off the racing roster, due to anomalous values.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/sergio-henao-taken-off-sky-roster-due-to-test-anomalies